Tim R-T-C
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For advance tickets on a specific operator's service only.
There is no agreed national system.
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Forged tickets on Dark Web
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For advance tickets on a specific operator's service only.
There is no agreed national system.
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DynamicSpirit
Established Member
Because people are greedy.
Yes, ticket prices are high, and it would be great if they were lower. But in my book, if the price of something is too high for you, then you simply choose not to buy it. You don't find some illicit means to steal the thing you wanted to buy without paying the company supplying it.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The Dutch rail system is rather more like the South East of England, or perhaps even more like a busier version of Northern (the latter being multi-centric).
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
I agree with that.
However, a bigger problem is, what happens if there is no signal at the location where someone is purchasing a walk-on ticket. Then there's no means for the central database to know that the ticket that person holds is in fact valid. You could provide some means for a ticket to be marked as valid-but-not-in-the-database, but that would then open a loophole for fraudsters - somewhat destroying the point of the central database!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
There's a lot to be said for:
"I want to go to xxx"
"Certainly sir, here's your ticket(s)"
"Thank you"
"Have a good journey sir"
Followed by laughing all the way to the bank?
In all seriousness, there is no reason e-ticketing could not also offer that use case. Instead of being given a piece of paper that is the ticket, you would get given a piece of paper that contains a reference to the ticket in a database (this could, if barcode-verified, be printed on A4 so contain lots of validity information, too). In practical terms no difference in how you use it, and some improvements.
You can buy a flight at the airport. People just tend not to as it's pricey.
greatkingrat
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The system doesn't need to be 100% perfect, just better than the system we have at present. As long as passengers are given the benefit of the doubt when there is no signal, I don't see the problem. It would be very difficult for a fraudster to know for certain whether there is going to be a signal or not when his ticket is checked.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
And even if there is not, the check can be saved and uploaded when there is a signal, allowing quality data to be stored on usage of the ticket.
You could even have a system whereby after a scan you entered the seat number, and thus have a good chance of coming back to the fraudster once a signal is obtained and a ticket is identified as being invalid.
If fraud is rare, the economics of it mean that it's not worth spending lots of money on it only to counter a few cases. Remember that fare evaders often aren't particularly nice honest people to begin with; that means you need security-trained people to deal with them safely.
How could tickets be made smarter to make them more difficult to counterfeit? Are tickets checked against a database of valid tickets?
How could tickets be made smarter to make them more difficult to counterfeit? Are tickets checked against a database of valid tickets?
"Welcome to customer services in 2026 ! Yes we know that you had a valid ticket before entering the outer worzelshire branch line, but unfortunately you failed to comply with the rule to also collect a boarding card at the boundary between inner Worzelshire and outer Worzelshire.
You have therefore been charged a penalty fare of £215, this has been automatically deducted from your smart account."
Railway ticketing is already too complex without adding another layer of complexity.
That 'something' will consist of:
- raising fares to even more ludicrous levels, thus encouraging more forgeries
- making it harder to detect forgeries, due to even more types of ticket design
- installing more ticket barriers, causing less human inspections of fake tickets (it's rare to see on-train inspections from many barriered stations these days), and meaning the best forgeries are able to be used without much chance of detection (unless they are used at LU stations)
- Spending £millions on botched smart card schemes that achieve nothing other than having some Season ticket holders not having to get their tickets re-issued when they stop working gatelines.
Yes.
Well, yes, that's his we'd likely do it but that doesn't have to be the case.
Even a more simplified solution whereby each ticket has a code (barcode, on a chip etc) that can be checked by random inspection could detect fakes, even if normal checks might not.
The risk is that someone might sooner pretend not to have a ticket in such circumstances.
We can't imagine we won't do something in the next 10 or 20 years though.
Even a more simplified solution whereby each ticket has a code (barcode, on a chip etc) that can be checked by random inspection could detect fakes, even if normal checks might not.
The risk is that someone might sooner pretend not to have a ticket in such circumstances.
We can't imagine we won't do something in the next 10 or 20 years though.
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DarloRich
Veteran Member
surely if you are using the "dark web" for train tickets you are kind of missing the point...............
The railways always been slow when it comes to new technology but they are getting there. The new ticket system On Board are getting will print QR codes onto all tickets, ccst tickets will all have them in next few months. Advance tickets more going to print your own or mobile. Virgin trains launched tickets to apple wallet today. Whether we want it or not actual card tickets that you buy from station whether it be a person or machine are a dying breed now.
Tim R-T-C
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It really wouldn't be hard to for the ticket machines to produce a code and register this into the database when there is signal availability. They wouldn't need to do this instantly - if you are on the train from Wick, it will be several hours before you need to check the ticket again.
I think people are overthinking all these - worries about bandwidth usage etc!
If they can make these systems work in far more rural countries like Italy, the USA and the Ukraine, I don't see why any of these should be issues in the UK.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
One difference between the UK and those three countries is that we do not operate compulsory reservations, they do on long-distances services. That rather simplifies the matter to valid on only one specific train.
the system in the foreign country I use uses prepaid tickets which you "activate" in the ticketing app as you board the train. inspections take place to make sure people have "activated" the ticket. unless a season, the ticket times out after some specific time period to limit multiple use. ticket can't be shared as is stored in the mobile app (unless you share the phone of course)
In the Netherlands you can get a code and you fill the code on the website below. And print it on your own printer (or library). Not at the station!
https://www.ns.nl/producten/en/coupon
https://www.ns.nl/producten/en/coupon
I took that to mean he was PACE trained - not exactly the same, but easier to understand for the general public.
You can have secure tickets without a wireless connection or a database.
It is possible to digitally sign the ticket barcode data using Public key cryptography. Then the reader could validate the signature and see if it came from a valid ticket machine or not. Only genuine ticket issuing machines would have the signing key.
This can be done with entirely disconnected ticket machines.
(Due to a mathematical trick you don't need the signing key to validate the signature and it remains secure even if the verification key is publicly known)
It is possible to digitally sign the ticket barcode data using Public key cryptography. Then the reader could validate the signature and see if it came from a valid ticket machine or not. Only genuine ticket issuing machines would have the signing key.
This can be done with entirely disconnected ticket machines.
(Due to a mathematical trick you don't need the signing key to validate the signature and it remains secure even if the verification key is publicly known)
Correct. Public Key Cryptography basically hands out open padlocks freely, which can be closed by anyone (e.g around a ticket's serial number & validity information), but only 'opened' by the organisation holding the corresponding Private Key.
Baxenden Bank
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All very technically splendid. What about those who do not have a suitable device, or have one but choose not to carry it at all times, or whose device is broken, stolen or simply runs out of power?
Perhaps we can look forward to a day when we will apply, in advance of travel, to a government department, and be given permission to travel. Our movements can then be tracked and no-one will be on the train who doesn't have that movement permission for fear of the consequences. Indeed there will be no need for ticket checks because everyone on the train will be being tracked in real-time by the railway GCHQalike. Alternatively I can stroll up to the station and buy a ticket because I fell like it that morning.
Perhaps we can look forward to a day when we will apply, in advance of travel, to a government department, and be given permission to travel. Our movements can then be tracked and no-one will be on the train who doesn't have that movement permission for fear of the consequences. Indeed there will be no need for ticket checks because everyone on the train will be being tracked in real-time by the railway GCHQalike. Alternatively I can stroll up to the station and buy a ticket because I fell like it that morning.
Tim R-T-C
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Just because a ticket uses a barcode to scan, therefore making it much harder to fake and more reliable to use on barriers, hardly means anyone need to track you. Afterall "they" could presumably track ticket sales via credit cards even if you pay by traditional means if they really wanted to.
Using barcodes to verify tickets will allow you to print tickets at home and buy them on your phone, but won't stop traditional sales as well. An orange ticket could just have the scannable code printed on it.
You can print your postage at home for letters and parcels, but you can still buy a physical stamp too.
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The tickets issued by the ticket office at Welwyn Garden City now come out like this, with what I'd assume is a secure Aztec code. However, I don't know if you can actually scan them on the readers at King's Cross.
It's odd that given we're trying to go for a new, standard, ticket design, that these have things placed in totally different positions - which, as ever, must be a bloody nightmare for RPIs doing checks at speed.
Plus, while the code is a good thing for security, this design doesn't allow for the extended descriptions and information.. so why are they being introduced like this?
Do paper season tickets get barcodes now? Being able to embed data on where sold, when, photo ID etc could all help reduce fraud through tampering. As it is, if a season is lost it can't be blocked - but gates could be set to stop season ticket holders (like railcard users often do) from time to time, or just random checks of seasons during onboard checks.
Baxenden Bank
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Just because a ticket uses a barcode to scan, therefore making it much harder to fake and more reliable to use on barriers, hardly means anyone need to track you. Afterall "they" could presumably track ticket sales via credit cards even if you pay by traditional means if they really wanted to.
Using barcodes to verify tickets will allow you to print tickets at home and buy them on your phone, but won't stop traditional sales as well. An orange ticket could just have the scannable code printed on it.
You can print your postage at home for letters and parcels, but you can still buy a physical stamp too.
No need for a tin hat. Such processes are already in place. Read the crime reports in your local paper of people traced by mobile phone records and the like. Just think how useful Oyster travel records are for following people. What data are all those ANPR cameras catching. The only difference is the vast amount of computing power now available rather than relying on thousands of clerks at Bletchley to listen in to things or compare CCTV images manually. But, as I am a thoroughly honest citizen, I have nothing to worry about.
duffield
Established Member
I hope you're being facetious here with the "If you've got nothing to hide you've got nothing to fear" line.
If not consider just one example - the fact that abuse of police computer systems to pursue vendettas against entirely innocent people is well documented - and the cases that come to light are surely only the tip of the iceberg.
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