Forcing me to use smartcard by stealth?

[Lifelong]

Good morning....

I am a long time SWR gold card holder. This started last year, but this year the quality of the ink on the gold card is appalling. I'm on my 5th duplicate and the card was bought in November. I don't want a smartcard, quite happy with my paper card - but is the degradation a deliberate ie print quality thing to force us to change? It feels quite odd and all variables (eg the place its kept) are entirely unchanged from say 2 years ago?

 

[Wallsendmag]

Good morning....

I am a long time SWR gold card holder. This started last year, but this year the quality of the ink on the gold card is appalling. I'm on my 5th duplicate and the card was bought in November. I don't want a smartcard, quite happy with my paper card - but is the degradation a deliberate ie print quality thing to force us to change? It feels quite odd and all variables (eg the place its kept) are entirely unchanged from say 2 years ago?

There is no ink, the tickets are printed thermally. Nothing new it's a short coming of CCST hence why Smartcards are so much more suited to seasons.

 

[Lifelong]

There is no ink, the tickets are printed thermally. Nothing new it's a short coming of CCST hence why Smartcards are so much more suited to seasons.

Many thanks. I can categorically say that this year's season is performing, so to speak, far worse than anything I've had before...so for me that is new.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I don't want a smartcard, quite happy with my paper card - but is the degradation a deliberate ie print quality thing to force us to change?

Possibly not a new thing. My paper/card Annual Gold season ticket (this admittedly from a few years ago) typically had to be re-issued two or three times a year, having either become unreadable (too faint to visually read) or unreadable (would no longer work the barriers). Reckon the widespread introduction of automated ticket barriers at both ends of my usual journey didn't help with regard to the ticket's longevity, it soon getting scuffed up.

 

[Haywain]

I don't want a smartcard,

Just curiosity, but why not? I struggle to think of any downside to having a season ticket on a smartcard.

 

[DarloRich]

Just curiosity, but why not? I struggle to think of any downside to having a season ticket on a smartcard.

agreed - just get a smart card! SO much easier. I dont even have to get it out to pass the barriers.

 

[IrishDave]

Just curiosity, but why not? I struggle to think of any downside to having a season ticket on a smartcard.

Not the OP, but I don't want a smartcard season ticket either. The terms and conditions of The Key for Thameslink state (emphasis mine):

• You must always touch “in” with your key smartcard card by placing it flat on a yellow card reader or Oyster reader at the ticket gate or free standing validator (a “Validator”) at the station where you start your rail Journey
• At the end of your rail Journey, you must touch “out” with your key smartcard by placing it flat on a Validator as you exit

I previously held a Brighton to London Thameslink season ticket (though not at present) - this is routed "Not via Underground" and is valid on any operator, but not to London Victoria. I would often buy either a one-day travelcard from East Croydon, or a return from, say, East Croydon to Birmingham. That combination would allow me to travel on Gatwick Express direct from Brighton to Victoria - even though it runs non-stop between Gatwick and Victoria - thanks to NRCOT condition 14.3.

If I were required to touch in and touch out for every journey on my season ticket, I would be required to get off the train at East Croydon, hike all the way up the ramp to touch out, go back through the barriers with my onward ticket, and then catch a different train onwards to Victoria. (Or, more likely, just go via London Bridge or St Pancras even if it's not as fast overall.)

Why should I give up the flexibility to use Gatwick Express on a combination of tickets? Until and unless the terms and conditions allow for, say, touching in at Brighton but not having to touch out at the other end, I'll stick with a Gold Card on CCST.

 

[Lifelong]

I understand the points around getting a smartcard. Not a luddite - never use paper tickets for other journeys. Can see the inherent risk of having a piece of card worth £4,000+ in a pocket. However (and the post above touches on some of this), all I ever see or hear about are challenges around Season Tickets Being Loaded On Smartcards (often in London but not completely). I may well be overegging those, fair enough, but from my perspective what I have works - or should do - and doesn't lead to debates (or shouldn't do). So I persevere with it...

 

[superkopite]

Not the OP, but I don't want a smartcard season ticket either. The terms and conditions of The Key for Thameslink state (emphasis mine):

I previously held a Brighton to London Thameslink season ticket (though not at present) - this is routed "Not via Underground" and is valid on any operator, but not to London Victoria. I would often buy either a one-day travelcard from East Croydon, or a return from, say, East Croydon to Birmingham. That combination would allow me to travel on Gatwick Express direct from Brighton to Victoria - even though it runs non-stop between Gatwick and Victoria - thanks to NRCOT condition 14.3.

If I were required to touch in and touch out for every journey on my season ticket, I would be required to get off the train at East Croydon, hike all the way up the ramp to touch out, go back through the barriers with my onward ticket, and then catch a different train onwards to Victoria. (Or, more likely, just go via London Bridge or St Pancras even if it's not as fast overall.)

Why should I give up the flexibility to use Gatwick Express on a combination of tickets? Until and unless the terms and conditions allow for, say, touching in at Brighton but not having to touch out at the other end, I'll stick with a Gold Card on CCST.

What do you think would happen, if like the vast majority of users at ungated stations, you failed to tap in/out at a station?

 

[Blackpool boy]

I understand the points around getting a smartcard. Not a luddite - never use paper tickets for other journeys. Can see the inherent risk of having a piece of card worth £4,000+ in a pocket.

your train ticket is a piece of card though so im not sure what justification you are going for here - plastic or paper card is still in your pocket and still costing the same

 

[Haywain]

The terms and conditions of The Key for Thameslink state (emphasis mine):

I agree that the terms and conditions say that, but they set out no penalty for failing to do so when a season ticket is held. They are designed to cover the use of a Key card for KeyGo. If you don't like the T&Cs for the Key you could use a different operator's smartcard.

but from my perspective what I have works

Apparently not, based on your first post!

 

[IrishDave]

What do you think would happen, if like the vast majority of users at ungated stations, you failed to tap in/out at a station?

I don't know. I suspect it would be fine, but for all I know the season ticket gets blocked after too many of those. So until it's in black and white that it's okay, I'm not dropping nearly £5,000 on a smartcard ticket when I can have it on CCST and avoid the problem.

I agree that the terms and conditions say that, but they set out no penalty for failing to do so when a season ticket is held. They are designed to cover the use of a Key card for KeyGo. If you don't like the T&Cs for the Key you could use a different operator's smartcard.

Huh, the possibility of using another operator's smart card didn't occur to me, that's an interesting idea. Would it be possible to load tickets onto such a smartcard at Brighton station, or would I have to go to a station operated by the TOC to get it loaded?

 

[AlterEgo]

I don't know. I suspect it would be fine, but for all I know the season ticket gets blocked after too many of those.

Why would they block a season ticket?

 

[Lifelong]

your train ticket is a piece of card though so im not sure what justification you are going for here - plastic or paper card is still in your pocket and still costing the same

Indeed. I was effectively criticizing myself for persisting w paper as I assume a smart card is easier to cancel if lost…(but not researched this)…

 

[superkopite]

I don't know. I suspect it would be fine, but for all I know the season ticket gets blocked after too many of those. So until it's in black and white that it's okay, I'm not dropping nearly £5,000 on a smartcard ticket when I can have it on CCST and avoid the problem.

And instead incur countless other problems. It seems to me that you are probably deserving of the issues you are facing

 

[Lifelong]

Thanks for your responses - would appear then that there's no deliberate ploy to degrade the paper seasons to accelerate moving to smart cards only as per my initial query. That's my idle curiosity done for the day - I'm obviously very unlucky with the tickets.

 

[Haywain]

Would it be possible to load tickets onto such a smartcard at Brighton station, or would I have to go to a station operated by the TOC to get it loaded?

If you are buying the season ticket at the station you can load it onto any TOC smartcard. If you buy the season ticket online you will have to use the website of the TOC whose smartcard you are using, regardless of where you load the ticket.

 

[jon81uk]

Good morning....

I am a long time SWR gold card holder. This started last year, but this year the quality of the ink on the gold card is appalling. I'm on my 5th duplicate and the card was bought in November. I don't want a smartcard, quite happy with my paper card - but is the degradation a deliberate ie print quality thing to force us to change? It feels quite odd and all variables (eg the place its kept) are entirely unchanged from say 2 years ago?

I guess its possible that the brand/make of thermal printer or cardstock used by your TOC has been changed in the last few years and the newer printer isn't as good?

 

[Wallsendmag]

I guess its possible that the brand/make of thermal printer or cardstock used by your TOC has been changed in the last few years and the newer printer isn't as good?

Possible but it hasn't

 

[TUC]

Surely a lost/stolen smartcard can much more readily be blocked and replaced than a CCST? That in itself is a strong argument for having one.

 

[cool110]

Thermal paper does degrade over time, so as more tickets move to smartcard it's likely that the cardstock has been sitting in storage for longer

 

[Lifelong]

Thermal paper does degrade over time, so as more tickets move to smartcard it's likely that the cardstock has been sitting in storage for longer

Thank you. I think you have answered my original question.

 

[yorkie]

Not the OP, but I don't want a smartcard season ticket either. The terms and conditions of The Key for Thameslink state (emphasis mine):

I previously held a Brighton to London Thameslink season ticket (though not at present) - this is routed "Not via Underground" and is valid on any operator, but not to London Victoria. I would often buy either a one-day travelcard from East Croydon, or a return from, say, East Croydon to Birmingham. That combination would allow me to travel on Gatwick Express direct from Brighton to Victoria - even though it runs non-stop between Gatwick and Victoria - thanks to NRCOT condition 14.3.

If I were required to touch in and touch out for every journey on my season ticket, I would be required to get off the train at East Croydon, hike all the way up the ramp to touch out, go back through the barriers with my onward ticket, and then catch a different train onwards to Victoria. (Or, more likely, just go via London Bridge or St Pancras even if it's not as fast overall.)

Why should I give up the flexibility to use Gatwick Express on a combination of tickets? Until and unless the terms and conditions allow for, say, touching in at Brighton but not having to touch out at the other end, I'll stick with a Gold Card on CCST.

Perhaps you could ask GTR for clarifiction?

See my post at: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-heathrow-elizabeth-line.268794/#post-6797535

Not the OP, but I don't want a smartcard season ticket either. The terms and conditions of The Key for Thameslink state (emphasis mine):

I previously held a Brighton to London Thameslink season ticket (though not at present) - this is routed "Not via Underground" and is valid on any operator, but not to London Victoria. I would often buy either a one-day travelcard from East Croydon, or a return from, say, East Croydon to Birmingham. That combination would allow me to travel on Gatwick Express direct from Brighton to Victoria - even though it runs non-stop between Gatwick and Victoria - thanks to NRCOT condition 14.3.

If I were required to touch in and touch out for every journey on my season ticket, I would be required to get off the train at East Croydon, hike all the way up the ramp to touch out, go back through the barriers with my onward ticket, and then catch a different train onwards to Victoria. (Or, more likely, just go via London Bridge or St Pancras even if it's not as fast overall.)

Why should I give up the flexibility to use Gatwick Express on a combination of tickets? Until and unless the terms and conditions allow for, say, touching in at Brighton but not having to touch out at the other end, I'll stick with a Gold Card on CCST.

If GTR are attempting to prevent people making such journeys, this would be a serious matter.

I suspect that you will find the wording is an oversight, but if GTR confirm they are intending to disrupt such journeys, I could see GTR being hit with yet another legal case...

 

[redreni]

There is no ink, the tickets are printed thermally. Nothing new it's a short coming of CCST hence why Smartcards are so much more suited to seasons.

Just curiosity, but why not? I struggle to think of any downside to having a season ticket on a smartcard.

agreed - just get a smart card! SO much easier. I dont even have to get it out to pass the barriers.

Is this not a downside, then?
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/etickets-itso-ticket-acceptance-on-london-underground.268953/

 

[Haywain]

Is this not a downside, then?
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/etickets-itso-ticket-acceptance-on-london-underground.268953/

No. The numbers affected will be small.

 

[Watershed]

No. The numbers affected will be small.

Numbers being "small" (which is a subjective judgment - I would certainly not regard disruption as so rare that it qualifies as such) is still a downside. I concur with others that there is no way I would be considering a Smartcard season ticket given the downsides.

 

[redreni]

Numbers being "small" (which is a subjective judgment - I would certainly not regard disruption as so rare that it qualifies as such) is still a downside. I concur with others that there is no way I would be considering a Smartcard season ticket given the downsides.

It's an annual season ticket, so the possibility of disruption occasioning LU acceptance or NR tickets which you want to use, while small on any given day, will amount to a virtual inevitably on some routes and ticket types.

Obviously if the season ticket includes a Z1-6 travelcard then the risk is more or less eliminated, and I accept disruption occasioning LU acceptance of NR tickets will occur much more frequently on some routes than on others. But it's certainly something to bear in mind.

I wouldn't have a London Terminals season ticket from a Southeastern station on a Smartcard, for example. I don't know if it's usual for LU ticket acceptance (e.g. between Vauxhall and Victoria) to be agreed when things go wrong on the lines that come into London Terminals via Clapham Junction?

 

[Haywain]

Numbers being "small" (which is a subjective judgment - I would certainly not regard disruption as so rare that it qualifies as such) is still a downside. I concur with others that there is no way I would be considering a Smartcard season ticket given the downsides.

Badly worded by me, but my point was that I dont see it as affecting season tickets on smartcards across most of the country.

 

[Watershed]

Badly worded by me, but my point was that I dont see it as affecting season tickets on smartcards across most of the country.

The overwhelming majority of rail travel is concentrated around London and the southeast though, so although LU acceptance isn't a national issue, it is still a fairly significant one.

Issues with ticket acceptance aren't limited to LU either - I can hardly imagine ticket acceptance on local bus or tram services working for ITSO ticket holders, for example.

As usual, it's an example of the industry pushing "solutions" that fail to account for scenarios that are regarded as "niche" even when they do occur with reasonable frequency.

 

[Haywain]

The overwhelming majority of rail travel is concentrated around London and the southeast though, so although LU acceptance isn't a national issue, it is still a fairly significant one.

It might be, but my experience of commuting to London over 20 years tells me that there wasn't one occasion when I would have been affected in the way it's been suggested here.