Football

[Old Yard Dog]

Online programmes - the beginning of the end?

English football supporters are very attached to their programmes. Issues are produced for all games down to the lowest levels of the football pyramid. Even pre-season friendlies.

Last week, Bradford didn't have a midweek game so I bought a Spirit of Scotland 4 in 8 ticket to grice the many lines I still needed in the central belt and borders. But the only football match on while I was there was the dead rubber betwwen Livingston and Inverness Caledonian Thistle.

I arrived in good time using the 800 bus from West Calder, the connections from Livingston North or South being a mess. The area around the ground was almost deserted with not a sign of programme sellers. When I asked at the turnstiles where they were, I was told that they were online and they don't print them any more. You had to download them to your phone, but at least they were free. Well I tried but gave up after an hour as the 23 MB file hadn't finished downloading and the print was, in any case, too small to read. Nobody else in the ground seemed to be reading their phones either.

Now the Scots historically have been much less precious about their programmes than the English (but not as bad as the Belgians, Hungarians or Italians). Indeed in the 1960's I remember even big clubs like Kilmarnock didn't do programmes which horrified me. At the time, over half the clubs in the Bradford Cricket League sold scorecards.

So is this the beginning of the end for the traditional programme? The first club I heard of doing online-only issues was North Wales Crusaders RLFC in 2017. But I never thought it would happen in football.

Once I had calmed down and stopped cursing tight fisted Scots under my breath, I started to think through the consequences. I have been watching 50-60 games a season for 50 years and probably have about 3000 programmes scattered about the house. I have run out of places to put them. I hate the huge issues produced at Premier and Football League games with pages of adverts and drivel I don't want to read about but feel I have to. I have now decided to ignore pen pictures, match reports, banal tweets, community news and anything to do with the U16s, U17s, U18s etc and the women. For a few years, I used to produce an off beat column for the Bradford programme until I got castigated online by a Stalybridge fan who objected to my piece on Domestic Football in Pakistan.

So the decision I had to make was whether or not to print out the Livingston pdf when I got home. In the end it was quite easy. The page size isn't A4 and it simply isn't worth the cost of printing 43 pages in full colour,
half of which are adverts. And the pile would take up two or three times the space of a conventional programme. So its just going to live on my PC.

The danger is, of course, that this trend will spread to England and, if interest isn't great, clubs will eventually stop bothering doing anything. Curzon Ashton couldn't be arsed producing a programme when the played there in January and weren't in the least bit apologetic. It was indeed hard work getting them to print out a few team sheets.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZSFKvCyIYzGsEcWgmZFr2QYI5EOdcRGm/view

 

[DarloRich]

And with that result Stockport face Chorley in the play-off quarter final on Wednesday. After missing out at the final hurdle last year hopefully the Magpies can go one better this time round.

Hard to call. I would like to say Stockport but Chorley are miserly in defense and very hard to beat. I will say Kiddie overall. Harrogate seem to crumble under pressure ( although are full time pro this year) and Brackley cant be set up ground wise for the Conference.

What do you think?

A great performance by Bradford beating 2nd, 3rd and 4th in our last three matches and scoring a last-ditch winner at Kidderminster to make the play-offs on goal difference. Looks like we now have to beat the same three teams again to go up, all away from home. Nobody at our club realistically expects us to do it, and we're not really set up for the National League. In fact we only avoided relegation two weeks ago at Boston. Quite a roller coaster of a season.

Spennymoor, Blyth and York all bottled the play offs. Bradford sneaked in on the last day. A really great performance. We beat Bradford PA home and away and the turn around is incredible.

Who do you think will come out on top in the play offs?

Darlo finished 12th which is decent enough after out Christmas/ new year form. more importantly is that off the field we have worked hard on finances and facilities and look in better shape AND the fans have just raised £80k toward the playing budget that should give us a similar team for next year.

The performance since Febraury/March shows this squad is good enough to challenge for a play off spot. It is just a shame we had such a bad run. TBH we aren't ready for the next level yet either. We couldn't afford it!

Also Mr Gray, who said some silly things about a laughing stock club of bucket rattlers when he left, finished only 3 points above us with all his York City millions. Silly man.

Online programmes - the beginning of the end?

we do them for exiles - you can buy a print subscription or an on line subscription for home programmes and a print subscription for away games. I don't bother as I only get a programme to prove/remind me I have been at the match and I can do that with my camera phone ( as my flickr will show) but I know people who do buy them in either format.

There were no programmes to be had on Saturday at Stockport as they had sold out so I will have to call on connections to get one. If they were on line i wouldn't bother as they don't really offer anything of interest

 

[AlterEgo]

Franchise FC finally relegated !

If there's any justice, Wimbledon will stay up, and Franchise FC will spend the next few years sliding down the leagues to the South Midlands league where they should have been required to start off in 2004.

AFC will stay up because they’re not bad enough to be going down this season.

AFC Wimbledon are likely to have exactly the same meagre existence as the “original” Wimbledon. They have nearly all of the same problems the former club had but with almost none of the good humour that went with the old Crazy Gang. There is still a lot of bitterness that their club was transplanted instead of dissapearing into a singularity, only remembered by old Rothmans almanacs.

I don’t really have anything against AFC Wimbledon and I think it’s a lot better they exist than not, but I do think they’re on a long term hiding to nothing. Very small catchment area, lots of clubs local to them competing for fans, overambitious plans, and more supporters from outside their locality with no connection to the area than the MK Dons have. I expect their natural place to be around the National League “proper” once 5-10 years have passed.

MK Dons have been exceptionally poor this season, particularly after Christmas. And that’s in the context of a very low standard of football across the board in League One - I can’t recall a poorer season overall. There are only two teams with any substance to them in that League and they’re both getting promoted. There is some distance between the supporter base and the people running the club, for the first time I can remember and I think there are a couple of seasons to endure in League Two at least. I doubt the haters’ wet dream of continuous relegation will happen though.

Many Dons fans have unrealistic expectations about what the club can realistically achieve. Basically, it’s a League One club and that’s their natural level. I don’t expect them to reach the Premier League, ever.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Online programmes - the beginning of the end?

English football supporters are very attached to their programmes. Issues are produced for all games down to the lowest levels of the football pyramid. Even pre-season friendlies....

Only ever encountered it in England at Basingstoke Town, though I don't doubt there are more.

 

[DarloRich]

MK Dons have been exceptionally poor this season, particularly after Christmas. And that’s in the context of a very low standard of football across the board in League One - I can’t recall a poorer season overall. There are only two teams with any substance to them in that League and they’re both getting promoted. There is some distance between the supporter base and the people running the club, for the first time I can remember and I think there are a couple of seasons to endure in League Two at least. I doubt the haters’ wet dream of continuous relegation will happen though.

Many Dons fans have unrealistic expectations about what the club can realistically achieve. Basically, it’s a League One club and that’s their natural level. I don’t expect them to reach the Premier League, ever.

The reason they have been relegated is that they have been very, very poor on the field and little better off it. They have made bad transfer decisions and they have also made 2 very poor management choices especially the guy they have just sacked. The club seems to have an obsession with young, well coiffured, cuddly chaps with no experience. They got lucky with Carl Robinson and when they sacked Robbie Nielson they went for a nice young man with no experience but who was involved in developing Dele Ali. It showed. 3 wins in 16 games at a time when relegation could ( and perhaps should) have been avoided. They should have gone for an experianced, hard, old school, no nonsense, bully of a lower league manager to kick them into shape. They didn't and they paid the price

I worry about their finances after this relegation. They don't have a thin and thinner hardcore like real clubs and league two isn't attractive to fans who have changed their colours once already. This is what being a real football fan is about. It is something Dongs fans have never had to face.

BTW - it isnt "haters wet dream" - As a fan of a proper club and one fighting back ( after being rescued by the fans in a way the Dongs never could) through the league structure the Dongs decided they were to good for I am extremely glad they have been relegated. I hope it continues. Go and talk to real fans of real clubs ( especially outside the Premier League) and see how the Dongs are considered. It wont be a polite response.

 

[AlterEgo]

The reason they have been relegated is that they have been very, very poor on the field and little better off it. They have made bad transfer decisions and they have also made 2 very poor management choices especially the guy they have just sacked. The club seems to have an obsession with young, well coiffured, cuddly chaps with no experience. They got lucky with Carl Robinson and when they sacked Robbie Nielson they went for a nice young man with no experience but who was involved in developing Dele Ali. It showed. 3 wins in 16 games at a time when relegation could ( and perhaps should) have been avoided. They should have gone for an experianced, hard, old school, no nonsense, bully of a lower league manager to kick them into shape. They didn't and they paid the price

Tl;dr: basically they employ cheap managers - which is pretty accurate. Rumours are Nigel Reo-Coker might be the next manager...(!) The mind boggles. Dons need to play firmer football rather than tiki-taka.

I worry about their finances after this relegation. They don't have a thin and thinner hardcore like real clubs and league two isn't attractive to fans who have changed their colours once already. This is what being a real football fan is about. It is something Dongs fans have never had to face.

Actually, MK Dons fans have already experienced relegation twice before, and record attendances were actually set in League Two when I first had a season ticket - I don’t think people are annoyed at the relegation but there are undeniably serious problems at the club.

The reason record attendances started being set in League Two was because the team was winning (as the team was pretty strong compared to the competition!). It’s a slightly different mindset to other clubs and some fans do have a very short term view of things.

Mostly my concerns are about a rudderless feel to proceedings. However, the problems are not so serious they’re at risk of folding or further capitulation.

BTW - it isnt "haters wet dream" - As a fan of a proper club and one fighting back ( after being rescued by the fans in a way the Dongs never could) through the league structure the Dongs decided they were to good for I am extremely glad they have been relegated. I hope it continues.

Well, that’s your opinion. I saw Darlington play once. I was in the away end with a friend, Carlisle were playing. Carlisle had a bigger away attendance than your home fans. It was quite sad, and I felt sad about Darlington (especially as you lost 5-0 that day), as you were in the business of getting shafted by everyone.

Go and talk to real fans of real clubs ( especially outside the Premier League) and see how the Dongs are considered. It wont be a polite response.

Re: “real fans”, why are Darlington only getting 1400-1500 on average at home games? Where did your 5000 average attendance go? Were three quarters of your own fans all plastics? What if (as I genuinely hope) Darlo are promoted back into the League and start getting 5000 fans again? Will the returning or new ones be “real fans”?

 

[DarloRich]

Tl;dr: basically they employ cheap managers - which is pretty accurate. Rumours are Nigel Reo-Coker might be the next manager...(!) The mind boggles. Dons need to play firmer football rather than tiki-taka.

oh no. That wont work!

Actually, MK Dons fans have already experienced relegation twice before, and record attendances were actually set in League Two when I first had a season ticket - I don’t think people are annoyed at the relegation but there are undeniably serious problems at the club.

The reason record attendances started being set in League Two was because the team was winning (as the team was pretty strong compared to the competition!). It’s a slightly different mindset to other clubs and some fans do have a very short term view of things.

Mostly my concerns are about a rudderless feel to proceedings. However, the problems are not so serious they’re at risk of folding or further capitulation.

it is the nature of the relegation this time and the vibes of the fans that i know. Will there be sufficient investment to engineer a promotion? I don't think they will fold but cash might be a problem especially if there is no excitement.

Well, that’s your opinion. I saw Darlington play once. I was in the away end with a friend, Carlisle were playing. Carlisle had a bigger away attendance than your home fans. It was quite sad, and I felt sad about Darlington (especially as you lost 5-0 that day), as you were in the business of getting shafted by everyone.

Was that when Sam Russell threw the ball in the net from a corner? March 2006 I think. We were awful yet finished just outside the playoffs.

Re: “real fans”, why are Darlington only getting 1400-1500 on average at home games? Where did your 5000 average attendance go? Were three quarters of your own fans all plastics? What if (as I genuinely hope) Darlo are promoted back into the League and start getting 5000 fans again? Will the returning or new ones be “real fans”?

We rarely got more than 2500 on a good day!

Being shafted by the FA, relegated 6 leagues, despite fans working their nads off to raise money to save the club being told by the FA you are a new club and forced to take a new name, having the stadium repossessed, being screwed over by 3 different owners and forced to play in a different town tends to do that to club. It is remarkable we are getting 1500. We have been there through years of thin, lots of thinner, 3 administrations, countless grounds, folding and being saved by some blokes in Peugeot and then building OUR club ( and it is OUR club now) back up from nothing. All on our own money. All on our own work. We have just raised 80k in a month to fix the budget for next season. We paid for a new stand earlier in the season. We paid for a new stand last season. I reckon we are doing canny well in the real fans stakes!

And yes lots of those are 5000 are plastics. They support Newcastle or Manure. They always have.

 

[TheAdelante]

oh no. That wont work!

it is the nature of the relegation this time and the vibes of the fans that i know. Will there be sufficient investment to engineer a promotion? I don't think they will fold but cash might be a problem especially if there is no excitement.

Was that when Sam Russell threw the ball in the net from a corner? March 2006 I think. We were awful yet finished just outside the playoffs.

We rarely got more than 2500 on a good day!

Being shafted by the FA, relegated 6 leagues, despite fans working their nads off to raise money to save the club being told by the FA you are a new club and forced to take a new name, having the stadium repossessed, being screwed over by 3 different owners and forced to play in a different town tends to do that to club. It is remarkable we are getting 1500. We have been there through years of thin, lots of thinner, 3 administrations, countless grounds, folding and being saved by some blokes in Peugeot and then building OUR club ( and it is OUR club now) back up from nothing. All on our own money. All on our own work. We have just raised 80k in a month to fix the budget for next season. We paid for a new stand earlier in the season. We paid for a new stand last season. I reckon we are doing canny well in the real fans stakes!

And yes lots of those are 5000 are plastics. They support Newcastle or Manure. They always have.

Oh gosh, you don’t support Durham do you...?!!

 

[Cowley]

Does anyone else think that Roma should have been forced to play at a neutral ground or perhaps even behind closed doors, or maybe not even allowed in the CL at all until they can provide a safe environment for away fans, bearing in mind the consistent violent behaviour shown by some of their ‘Ultras’ whenever a team has had to play in Rome?
The advice given to Liverpool fans not to walk around various areas of the city, not to get separated etc etc seems completely at odds with what should be a great occasion.
There’s been stabbings when English teams have played over there before and I’m worried that someone might die this time.
I don’t know what the best thing to do is, and wondering what others think on here?

 

[DarloRich]

Oh gosh, you don’t support Durham do you...?!!

eh?

Does anyone else think that Roma should have been forced to play at a neutral ground or perhaps even behind closed doors, or maybe not even allowed in the CL at all until they can provide a safe environment for away fans, bearing in mind the consistent violent behaviour shown by some of their ‘Ultras’ whenever a team has had to play in Rome?
The advice given to Liverpool fans not to walk around various areas of the city, not to get separated etc etc seems completely at odds with what should be a great occasion.
There’s been stabbings when English teams have played over there before and I’m worried that someone might die this time.
I don’t know what the best thing to do is, and wondering what others think on here?

twas ever thus.

When Middlesbrough played there in 2006 three Boro fans were stabbed in a bar in the town, fans in the ground were pelted with coins, bottles and golf balls the route to the stadium was like running the gauntlet especially the bloody bridge over the river. My step dad and his friend were attacked on the way to the ground and only got out of trouble via the arrival of a big group of Boro fans who rescued them. Terrible. Boro beat them on away goals mind

 

[Cowley]

twas ever thus.

When Middlesbrough played there in 2006 three Boro fans were stabbed in a bar in the town, fans in the ground were pelted with coins, bottles and golf balls the route to the stadium was like running the gauntlet especially the bloody bridge over the river. My step dad and his friend were attacked on the way to the ground and only got out of trouble via the arrival of a big group of Boro fans who rescued them. Terrible. Boro beat them on away goals mind

I remember it well. Similar has happened with Chelsea, Man United and others...
Is it specifically English teams that are targeted because of our misdemeanours and reputation in the 1980s? Or do all foreign fans receive the same treatment?
Anyway I suppose it could be useful to practice escape and evasion tactics for the absolute nightmare that Russia will be for England fans this summer...

 

[DarloRich]

Is it specifically English teams that are targeted because of our misdemeanours and reputation in the 1980s? Or do all foreign fans receive the same treatment?

i suspect it is the same for everyone. The difference may be the number of fans following other clubs. English fans tend to travel in large numbers.

 

[Groningen]

The Netherlands is ready for Walking Football starting on May 12, 2018 in Bristol.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Is it specifically English teams that are targeted because of our misdemeanours and reputation in the 1980s? Or do all foreign fans receive the same treatment?

I think most foreign clubs get the same treatment, particularly if they have a "reputation". The likes of Feyenoord always seem to get a warm welcome wherever they go.

There is still a lot of bitterness that their club was transplanted instead of dissapearing into a singularity, only remembered by old Rothmans almanacs.

And rightly so. If you disappear you disappear. It's sad, but it's life. But if your relatively healthy club- and remember Franchise FC were still in the Premier League when the plans were first drawn up, and were still in the Championship when it was confirmed- is stolen from you and moved 60 miles up the road it is slightly different. And all so some music spiv can cash in on a shady deal with Asda and Ikea to get around planning rules.

 

[Groningen]

You will be delighted that the Russian hooligans are ready to go for the WC 2018.

 

[EbbwJunction1]

I'm not a football fan as such, although I do have an affiliation with a number of clubs going back many years.

What does annoy me is that often, whenever stories of violence are reported, the perpetrators are referred to as "fans" or "supporters" of XXX FC. In my opinion, this is so far from the truth as to be ridiculous ... they are not "fans" or "supporters" of XXX FC, they are merely thugs and hooligans and should be referred to as such.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm not a football fan as such, although I do have an affiliation with a number of clubs going back many years.

What does annoy me is that often, whenever stories of violence are reported, the perpetrators are referred to as "fans" or "supporters" of XXX FC. In my opinion, this is so far from the truth as to be ridiculous ... they are not "fans" or "supporters" of XXX FC, they are merely thugs and hooligans and should be referred to as such.

They're often both.

 

[St Rollox]

Another Rangers manager bites the dust.
Hard gig with no money to spend.

 

[greyman42]

I remember it well. Similar has happened with Chelsea, Man United and others...
Is it specifically English teams that are targeted because of our misdemeanours and reputation in the 1980s? Or do all foreign fans receive the same treatment?
Anyway I suppose it could be useful to practice escape and evasion tactics for the absolute nightmare that Russia will be for England fans this summer...

eh?



twas ever thus.

When Middlesbrough played there in 2006 three Boro fans were stabbed in a bar in the town, fans in the ground were pelted with coins, bottles and golf balls the route to the stadium was like running the gauntlet especially the bloody bridge over the river. My step dad and his friend were attacked on the way to the ground and only got out of trouble via the arrival of a big group of Boro fans who rescued them. Terrible. Boro beat them on away goals mind

Where are the Police when all this is going on? If the authorities cannot guarantee any sort of public order at these matches then surely UEFA should look at banning these clubs.

 

[Butts]

Another Rangers manager bites the dust.
Hard gig with no money to spend.

Steve Gerrard en route for Ibrox ?

 

[Puffing Devil]

Two items of interest: Grimsby Town FC have secured another season in the Football League

Secondly, the petition for Safe Standing has secured over 100K "signatures", meaning a debate in parliament in the face of a recent government decision to continue the ban. Personally, I think the ban is both pointless and dangerous - many fans stand in the seating area - why not give them a proper place to stand. Me - I'd rather sit, though I welcome the choice.

 

[Antman]

Does anyone else think that Roma should have been forced to play at a neutral ground or perhaps even behind closed doors, or maybe not even allowed in the CL at all until they can provide a safe environment for away fans, bearing in mind the consistent violent behaviour shown by some of their ‘Ultras’ whenever a team has had to play in Rome?
The advice given to Liverpool fans not to walk around various areas of the city, not to get separated etc etc seems completely at odds with what should be a great occasion.
There’s been stabbings when English teams have played over there before and I’m worried that someone might die this time.
I don’t know what the best thing to do is, and wondering what others think on here?

Maybe Liverpool should as well as they failed to provide a safe environment for the Manchester City team when they arrived at Anfield? I do agree though that the situation in Rome is unacceptable and totally at odds with what a Champions League semi final should be about.

 

[DarloRich]

Where are the Police when all this is going on? If the authorities cannot guarantee any sort of public order at these matches then surely UEFA should look at banning these clubs.

You haven't been to many European or England games abroad have you

 

[Darandio]

Maybe Liverpool should as well as they failed to provide a safe environment for the Manchester City team when they arrived at Anfield? I do agree though that the situation in Rome is unacceptable and totally at odds with what a Champions League semi final should be about.

Disgraceful.

Comparing stabbings and a guy in a coma with a few cans of Strongbow thrown at a bus?

 

[Antman]

Disgraceful.

Comparing stabbings and a guy in a coma with a few cans of Strongbow thrown at a bus?

Don't be so ridiculous!

 

[Antman]

Franchise FC finally relegated !

If there's any justice, Wimbledon will stay up, and Franchise FC will spend the next few years sliding down the leagues to the South Midlands league where they should have been required to start off in 2004.

A point at Doncaster has confirmed AFC Wimbledon are safe.

 

[507021]

Real Madrid have qualified for the Champions League final next month after a 4-3 aggregate win over Bayern Munich.

 

[fowler9]

Maybe Liverpool should as well as they failed to provide a safe environment for the Manchester City team when they arrived at Anfield? I do agree though that the situation in Rome is unacceptable and totally at odds with what a Champions League semi final should be about.

I agree that what happened with Man City was far from ideal but the police were also at fault (I'm not saying that a number of our fans weren't a bunch of scum). The Roma ultras are above and beyond that.

 

[greyman42]

You haven't been to many European or England games abroad have you

No your right, I have not been to any but I get your point. English clubs were banned from competing in Europe the 80s and 90s due to persistent public disorder problems though.

 

[SteveP29]

Go and talk to real fans of real clubs ( especially outside the Premier League) and see how the Dongs are considered. It wont be a polite response.

I know none of the people I sit around or the friends I go to the match with at Newcastle that are complimentary about Franchise FC

Where are the Police when all this is going on? If the authorities cannot guarantee any sort of public order at these matches then surely UEFA should look at banning these clubs.

You do know how many police it would take to adequately police over 50,000 people, don't you?
And if they are sourced from elsewhere, who covers the lack of manpower elsewhere in the city?