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Football

RichmondCommu

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Wow, that was quite condescending.

Yes it was if you support one of those clubs. For what its worth my own club Derby County are even worse. We face at least one more season in the fizzy pop league, apart from half a dozen games the football last season was awful and our season was over by mid February.
 
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RichmondCommu

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What you don't understand is I was using those facts about Reading to add a bit of colour to my argument that Reading are dull and boring. It's a club with a very middle class, "comfortable" feel. They don't have a lot of character, at least not to my eyes.

So are you suggesting that all Reading fans are middle class? Are you suggesting that Reading fans don't have the right to support a club? I don't think they are any more dull and boring than say Bournemouth or Peterborough United. Would you prefer it if Reading were sponsored by an on line betting company which you clearly seem to favour?
 
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RichmondCommu

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What you don't understand is I was using those facts about Reading to add a bit of colour to my argument that Reading are dull and boring. It's a club with a very middle class, "comfortable" feel. They don't have a lot of character, at least not to my eyes.

I'm not that bothered arguing the toss about it, because football is more than just facts, comparison, and statistics.

It doesn't matter to me that Roger Hunt got the most goals for Liverpool in a single season, my favourite player is Ian Rush.

In all honesty I've not suggested that statistics or facts are important, far from it. All I've said is that when I watch a football match I want to be entertained and that I'd rather that football clubs thought more carefully about their sponsors.
 

AlterEgo

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No, football survives by being affordable to watch and by providing a good level of entertainment.

People complain that the stadiums are too quiet; that's because the people who would traditionally go to games and sing / chant and generally be a pain in the back side can no longer afford to go. And with that go your irrational partisans.

There are one or two exceptions including the Terriers but there are not enough. Football is far too expensive for the average football fan with a family.

I think stadiums are quiet because of a few things. One, the move to all seater stadiums, and stewards enforcing seating restricts the atmosphere. There's always a much better atmosphere when there's a whole stand of people all stood up. The other reason stadiums are quiet is because actually a lot of families including women and girls do go to games, which means a little less noise from them (and kids shouting is not an intimidating noise regardless of how loud they do it!). And then there are people who think they are customers of the football club rather than supporters, which is a very middle-class attitude. Nothing wrong with it, but people who think they are customers are much less likely to be blindly partisan.

Football is disgracefully expensive to watch, for sure, but I wasn't on about the financial viability of clubs but the sport as a spiritual thing; a spectacle. It's excessively self-concerned and overly sentimental, searching for additional meaning beyond itself where none exists. There's too much hype and not enough pure football. I guess I'm Roy Keane at heart.
 

AlterEgo

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So are you suggesting that all Reading fans are middle class? Are you suggesting that Reading fans don't have the right to support a club? I don't think they are any more dull and boring than say Bournemouth or Peterborough United. Would you prefer it if Reading were sponsored by an on line betting company which you clearly seem to favour?

Oh for crying out loud. Please try to treat this as a discussion rather than some sort of adversarial situation where one party or the other has to eliminate the other's argument.

You're welcome to your opinion that they're about as dull as Peterborough.

In all honesty I've not suggested that statistics or facts are important, far from it. All I've said is that when I watch a football match I want to be entertained and that I'd rather that football clubs thought more carefully about their sponsors.

I think you are treating my comments far too literally, and I don't claim my opinion is rational, because nothing in football from a fan's perspective is rational. I'm honestly not looking to justify why I don't like Reading to your satisfaction, but I'll say again that I think they're boring and I am glad Hudds won.
 
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roversfan2001

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Reading aren't quite Leeds when it comes to atmosphere, let's say that. :lol: They're also a team that plays in a soulless bowl stadium like Middlesbrough, Derby and Bolton. It's like they don't really have their own identity, they just exist without doing anything.
 

RichmondCommu

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Oh for crying out loud. Please try to treat this as a discussion rather than some sort of adversarial situation where one party or the other has to eliminate the other's argument.

You're welcome to your opinion that they're about as dull as Peterborough.

It is a discussion or else you wouldn't have replied to my posts.

I don't understand why you have a problem with Waitrose as a sponsor with their name on replica shirts but don't have a problem with bet365 being plastered over shirts worn by children.
 

Darandio

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Reading aren't quite Leeds when it comes to atmosphere, let's say that. :lol: They're also a team that plays in a soulless bowl stadium like Middlesbrough, Derby and Bolton. It's like they don't really have their own identity, they just exist without doing anything.

The thing is, you've got much more in common with a club like Middlesbrough than you might think. Go back to 1986, there nearly wasn't a club and those affiliated with Blackburn might just want to ask what that is like and how to get out of it, because that is where you are heading.
 

RichmondCommu

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I think you are treating my comments far too literally, and I don't claim my opinion is rational, because nothing in football from a fan's perspective is rational. I'm honestly not looking to justify why I don't like Reading to your satisfaction, but I'll say again that I think they're boring and I am glad Hudds won.

Football is both in my opinion. Its rational in terms of how you pick a team to follow but its irrational in terms of how much money you spend to watch that team. Following football is not completely irrational or else not enough people would bother to make it viable.
 

roversfan2001

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The thing is, you've got much more in common with a club like Middlesbrough than you might think. Go back to 1986, there nearly wasn't a club and those affiliated with Blackburn might just want to ask what that is like and how to get out of it, because that is where you are heading.
I was referring to Reading in my last sentence, though reading it back I can see how it could be seen as referring to all 4 teams. Middlesbrough are a far better club than Reading in this context.
 

AlterEgo

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It is a discussion or else you wouldn't have replied to my posts.

I don't understand why you have a problem with Waitrose as a sponsor with their name on replica shirts but don't have a problem with bet365 being plastered over shirts worn by children.

I don't understand why you've pulled that small point, only intended to add a little colour to my (slightly windy-up) point that Reading are boring, soulless, indistinct and middle class, and tried to make out like I hate Waitrose as a sponsor but must clearly support gambling firms being sponsors of football teams.

I don't understand why you think you have to try and "win". It's very antisocial if I may say so; I'm not trying to justify the reasons I like or dislike football teams to your satisfaction or anyone else.

I could be equally boring and pull out your small point that: you didn't like Leicester because you felt you didn't get the impression you were seeing anything you couldn't do yourself - and ask whether you thought you could play for O'Neill's Leicester. But I'm not a colossal bore and I understand you were merely adding some colour to the structure of your argument rather than being literal, so hey.

Zzzzzzzzz
 

roversfan2001

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Its rational in terms of how you pick a team to follow
If that was the case my username wouldn't be what it is. :lol: Unless everyone around you had no interest in football, you'd be influenced by them. For example I support Blackburn because my dad does, who in turn supports us because his friend in school did and he was invited along and was hooked.
 

RichmondCommu

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I think stadiums are quiet because of a few things. One, the move to all seater stadiums, and stewards enforcing seating restricts the atmosphere. There's always a much better atmosphere when there's a whole stand of people all stood up.

Even at the age of 50 I would love to have the opportunity to stand up to watch a game and it certainly works in Germany but everyone is waiting for a medium sized / large club to take the lead. The move to all seater stadiums was inevitable after Hillsborough and there is no question that football grounds are a much safer place to be and that can only be a good thing. The problem with people standing up in seated areas is that it forces everyone to stand up whether they want to or not. Which then causes conflict as we saw at West Ham last season.
 

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roversfan2001

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Even at the age of 50 I would love to have the opportunity to stand up to watch a game and it certainly works in Germany but everyone is waiting for a medium sized / large club to take the lead. The move to all seater stadiums was inevitable after Hillsborough and there is no question that football grounds are a much safer place to be and that can only be a good thing. The problem with people standing up in seated areas is that it forces everyone to stand up whether they want to or not. Which then causes conflict as we saw at West Ham last season.
That opens up a whole new can of worms as to whether standing is inherently unsafe. I'm of the opinion that is isn't. Football grounds are far more sterile now than 30 years ago because there aren't 10-foot high fences at the front of stands and because a lot of stadiums have had considerable amounts of work done to them; and new stadiums have replaced old, crumbling ones.
 

RichmondCommu

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I don't understand why you've pulled that small point, only intended to add a little colour to my (slightly windy-up) point that Reading are boring, soulless, indistinct and middle class, and tried to make out like I hate Waitrose as a sponsor but must clearly support gambling firms being sponsors of football teams.

I don't understand why you think you have to try and "win". It's very antisocial if I may say so; I'm not trying to justify the reasons I like or dislike football teams to your satisfaction or anyone else.

No more than you do or else we wouldn't be having this conversation. I'm a very sociable person but having watched Derby play at Reading on several occasions I can't see why you have a problem with them. Reading is in a prosperous area but it doesn't mean to say that everyone who watches them is middle class. In fact the middle class are more likely in my experience to go and watch rugby.
 

RichmondCommu

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That opens up a whole new can of worms as to whether standing is inherently unsafe. I'm of the opinion that is isn't. Football grounds are far more sterile now than 30 years ago because there aren't 10-foot high fences at the front of stands and because a lot of stadiums have had considerable amounts of work done to them; and new stadiums have replaced old, crumbling ones.

Standing can be made safe as clubs in Germany have proved. With the obvious exception of Anfield, Hillsborough and Ibrox there is no credible reason why standing could not be reintroduced.

Football grounds are becoming sterile places because the average working man / women can no longer afford to attend on a regular basis. Even the admission prices in the Championship are way too expensive.
 

AlterEgo

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No more than you do or else we wouldn't be having this conversation. I'm a very sociable person but having watched Derby play at Reading on several occasions I can't see why you have a problem with them. Reading is in a prosperous area but it doesn't mean to say that everyone who watches them is middle class. In fact the middle class are more likely in my experience to go and watch rugby.

You can't help yourself. :lol:

I never claimed everyone who watched Reading was middle class and I don't care, really. It's just how the club feels to me - and yes I've been to the Madejski. It's a feeling, not a fact or a knowledge, and it'll feel different to everyone and it is not a rational process. I'm not trying to counter or disprove your experience, or score any points.

Hell, I had an MK Dons season ticket for a few seasons, so I know all about nice little clubs that play in a sterile Belfast sink of a stadium with Johnny-come-Lately supporters. I suppose at least MK Dons have the, we, "journey" which marks them as unique!
 

RichmondCommu

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Football is disgracefully expensive to watch, for sure, but I wasn't on about the financial viability of clubs but the sport as a spiritual thing; a spectacle. It's excessively self-concerned and overly sentimental, searching for additional meaning beyond itself where none exists. There's too much hype and not enough pure football. I guess I'm Roy Keane at heart.

So why do you continue to pay to watch games? Its for sentimental reasons that I'm glad that Huddersfield Town went up; a proud history and 45 years out of the top flight.
 

roversfan2001

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Standing can be made safe as clubs in Germany have proved. With the obvious exception of Anfield, Hillsborough and Ibrox there is no credible reason why standing could not be reintroduced.

Football grounds are becoming sterile places because the average working man / women can no longer afford to attend on a regular basis. Even the admission prices in the Championship are way too expensive.

Standing doesn't need to be made safe as it's already safe. The Hillsborough disaster didn't happen because the supporters were stood up. I'm not sure why those 3 stadiums in particular should never have standing areas either (and yes I am aware of the link between the 3). The admission prices vary wildly between clubs and even specific games. My season ticket at Ewood has been between £60 and £85 for as long as I've had one, obviously adult season tickets cost more but they're still below £300. Clubs like Leeds and Wednesday charge obscene amounts and I agree that the working class families are being priced out at certain places.
 

RichmondCommu

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Hell, I had an MK Dons season ticket for a few seasons, so I know all about nice little clubs that play in a sterile Belfast sink of a stadium with Johnny-come-Lately supporters. I suppose at least MK Dons have the, we, "journey" which marks them as unique!

You moan about 'plastic clubs' and sterile stadiums and yet you had a season ticket to watch the MK Dons? Really? Why didn't you go and watch Luton Town or Watford or maybe Oxford United?
 

RichmondCommu

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My season ticket at Ewood has been between £60 and £85 for as long as I've had one, obviously adult season tickets cost more but they're still below £300. Clubs like Leeds and Wednesday charge obscene amounts and I agree that the working class families are being priced out at certain places.

Okay, honest question here. Are all season tickets at Ewood priced £300 or less?
 

tony_mac

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Standing doesn't need to be made safe as it's already safe. The Hillsborough disaster didn't happen because the supporters were stood up.
I think I would prefer to listen to Lord Justice Taylor's opinion - I imagine he spent rather more time looking at the evidence than you did. (Although, still not enough).
There is no panacea which will achieve total safety and cure all problems of behaviour and crowd control. But I am satisfied that seating does more to achieve those objectives than any other single measure.
 

roversfan2001

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The Hillsborough disaster would not have happened if the Leppings Lane end had been all seater. I'm really not sure why you can't see that.
That's not necessarily true. The disaster happened due to a number of factors, the nature of the terrace being one of them (not the fact that it was a terrace). If fans weren't caged in like animals then fans wouldn't have been trapped in and crushed to death. If standing was unsafe then it would have been outlawed at grounds at any level across the country. Instead it's only the top two divisions.
 

RichmondCommu

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Teenagers can buy whatever shirt they wish. If they're too big for a child's size, then they will buy an adult's size.

Exactly. Football clubs are exposing teenagers (many of whom are children) to on line gambling and that cannot be right. Unless you are Stoke City, West Ham or Newcastle United.
 

AlterEgo

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You moan about 'plastic clubs' and sterile stadiums and yet you had a season ticket to watch the MK Dons? Really? Why didn't you go and watch Luton Town or Watford or maybe Oxford United?

Because MK Dons were the local team and I purchased a season ticket along with my aging father whom I treated upon his retirement (it was his idea!). Deciding to go and watch a game or support a team is not necessarily a rational thought process. At present I watch Woking where I can justify the outrageous £18 cost.

I fully appreciate the MK Dons are rather an acquired taste and I don't expect you to like them. The support is generally Johnny come Latelys or footballing novices.

I actually used to play for Watford in their youth team and the reserves until I was 18. Prior to that I had a trial at Luton. I have a soft spot for both.

Good grief and you have a go at me for being antisocial?

Well you can't, can you? :lol:

Continuously looking to score points! There are none for you to win. You claimed I said something which I never once suggested. I didn't say that every single Reading fan was middle class - that could be clearly silly - so I'm confused as to why you'd try and "disprove" that.
 
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