Football

[Butts]

Indeed, can't believe that wasn't given but if the ref thought he dived a yellow card should have been produced
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Now it's 2014 perhaps we can have buttstradmus' prediction for who'll go up, go down and win the world cup

Can I just say that I and Butts Junior had a wonderful day at Anfield yesterday,being a "mini fat cat" in The Premier Club for the Hull match.

With the quantity and quality of food included in the package I can understand why people are late to their seats for kick off. The fayre inside is a lot better than that on the pitch sometimes.

Liverpool should have buried Hull yesterday by at least five or six, so I am discounting them as potential Champions. I believe Manchester City will win the title.

I note you have been modest in not crowing about a rare away victory for Villa yesterday

 

[Johnuk123]

Oh the irony of a Man U. manager moaning about not getting a penalty at Old Trafford.

 

[JoeH]

As is typical when decisions go against Manchester United the same handful of decisions that went in their favour in the past are instantly recalled by all and used to justify the decisions against them. At the same time decisions that went against United even in the same game or previous game are completely ignored and even now routinely covered up by the media because it doesn't fit in with the story of United being an evil empire that they want to tell.

You would think the fact that the same few notable decisions that went in United's favour have now each been used several dozen (hundred?) times each to justify decisions against them would mean they were all used up now, but apparently not.

 

[balne-wonderer]

Interesting that the BBC chose to show three slow motion replays of a certain controversial incident from today's games on Match of the Day, but cut each replay short to hide evidence of a foul.

A remarkable thing to do in today's Internet age as truthful and legitimate replays of the incident were online within minutes of it happening. Apparently the BBC think they can come along hours later with a crudely cut version and alter the reality of what actually happened.

The BBC MOTD also omitted the hand ball in the first half by Man Utd, which Alan Green and Mark Lawrenson desribed on five live as a "nailed on penalty"

Tim Sherwood said, it evens itself out. And over the course of the game, it did.

The less said about Leeds United, the better.

 

[JoeH]

The BBC MOTD also omitted the hand ball in the first half by Man Utd, which Alan Green and Mark Lawrenson desribed on five live as a "nailed on penalty"

Tim Sherwood said, it evens itself out. And over the course of the game, it did.

The less said about Leeds United, the better.

I watched the game live but I am waiting on obtaining a copy of the match so I can put it under close scrutiny before commenting on all the individual incidents. My own copy suffers extensively from 'rain fade'.

United could have had at least two penalties, had a player wrongly awarded a caution and the Tottenham keeper could have gone off, so no it doesn't appear even itself out.

Nor has it evened itself out in the past few matches where even with United winning matches several key decisions have been going against them in each. Nobody is going to complain about the referee when their team wins and the fact United fans don't seem to complain often is more down to them winning all the time rather than decisions not going against them. Even now when United are going from a relatively poor period it still isn't seen as the 'done thing' to complain about the referee unlike with fans of other clubs who complain habitually.

I wouldn't trust anything the BBC say considering they deliberately doctored footage no less than three times on MOTD last night to hide evidence of a Tottenham foul.

Before you ask, yes an official complaint has been made about this (again) and I expect it to be upheld.


The Daily Mail also selectively "ignored" it when showing evidence of the same incident because if they showed it they wouldn't have been able to use the incident in their crusade against simulation.

I won't bother complaining to the Daily Mail again because in the past when I have complained about their dishonesty regarding Manchester United I have found the articles to be subsequently edited to remove the false information and then received aggressive/abusive emails from the 'journalists' who wrote them denying ever having written the false information to begin with and accusing me of trying to damage their careers! I've also been told by Daily Mail editors (not THE editor) that they would stand by their journalist's stories in their entirety, but secretly editing the articles to remove the false information isn't a good example of standing by them.

 

[fowler9]

Can I just say that I and Butts Junior had a wonderful day at Anfield yesterday,being a "mini fat cat" in The Premier Club for the Hull match.

With the quantity and quality of food included in the package I can understand why people are late to their seats for kick off. The fayre inside is a lot better than that on the pitch sometimes.

Liverpool should have buried Hull yesterday by at least five or six, so I am discounting them as potential Champions. I believe Manchester City will win the title.

I note you have been modest in not crowing about a rare away victory for Villa yesterday

Hey mate, how was the hospitality suite? Is it worth the extra cash for a treat?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I honestly think if anyone bar Ashley Young had gone down yesterday it would have been a penalty, but like I've said on here before, his reputation precedes him. Also worth remembering we are now in World Cup year, so referees are going to be a lot more 'conservative' on 50:50 calls.

 

[fowler9]

I honestly think if anyone bar Ashley Young had gone down yesterday it would have been a penalty, but like I've said on here before, his reputation precedes him. Also worth remembering we are now in World Cup year, so referees are going to be a lot more 'conservative' on 50:50 calls.

Well we have the same with Suarez so I know what you mean.

 

[JoeH]

In the very first minute of the match. Absent from the BBC match report, not featured in the MOTD highlights.


Welbeck is clear on goal and Tottenham keeper Lloris comes out to punch clear and ends doing so outside of his box.

http://i.imgur.com/WMLx7yS.jpg - Larger

http://i.imgur.com/e9OdWae.jpg - Larger

 

[fowler9]

At the risk of being a bit "It all evens out" didn't Spurs have a goal not given against Man U in the not too distant past when it was miles over the line?

 

[JoeH]

At the risk of being a bit "It all evens out" didn't Spurs have a goal not given against Man U in the not too distant past when it was miles over the line?

Nine years ago and that same one famous decision has been used to excuse umpteen decisions against United since.

 

[Robinson]

Those pictures don't show where contact is made with the ball. It certainly wasn't a stonewaller like you're making it out to be.

 

[JoeH]

Those pictures don't show where contact is made with the ball. It certainly wasn't a stonewaller like you're making it out to be.

It doesn't matter where contact was initially made, only where it was "broken off" (outside the box). The first image clearly shows he's outside of the box... note that he is in the air, the shape of his body and the position of his shadow.

I would have liked to provide images taken from other angles but being a decision that went against United it wasn't given any further scrutiny. There were no replays shown.

 

[fowler9]

Nine years ago and that same one famous decision has been used to excuse umpteen decisions against United since.

Ha ha, blimey, I feel old now! Was that really 9 years ago? At the end of the day though mate I think you will find plenty of non Man U supporters who feel Man U have had more than their fare share of luck with decisions over the years. I remember even further back when Solskjaer maimed Hyypia and nothing happened to him because "He's not that kind of player". While Hyypia was off the pitch being treated Man U scored. It is just swings and roundabouts and we always pick up on the things that go against us. I skillfully ignore Skrtel trying to rip peoples shirts off.

 

[balne-wonderer]

The thing is it’s a strange thing because I was at the Leeds v Blackburn yesterday, which I why I could listen to the first half of the Man U game in the car and got home to watch the 2nd…

We were on the wrong end of two appalling decisions in the 2nd half in addition to the referee refusing to enforce the correct rule on players getting treated on the pitch.

Also, not really wanted to mention Manchester United but to be fair, Rooney and Ferdinand have been castigated by the media in the past for ‘over zealous celebrations’ in front of opposing fans but Chris Taylor of Blackburn almost started a riot yesterday with his actions after the second Blackburn goal, best thing was, he didn’t even score it! And his tirade was directed at the front row of the North Stand, which is just full of disabled people and their carer’s, which I found odd.

In the ground I was fuming, as was everyone else but walking back to the car and reflecting on things when I got home I decided that we were rubbish anyway and didn’t deserve any decisions going our way

I’m sure someone teams make their own luck and as we are constantly rubbish ours is always bad.

Matt Smith is an awful player, yes because of his height will score a few headers and he’s done ok in that department but his touch, ball control and finishing skills with his feet are non-existant. We lack any natural width, I know decent wingers are hard to come by but playing Dom Poleon on the wing is not the answer at all. Michael Brown lasted all of 30 seconds before he was rightly booked, Michael Tonge turns about the same speed as an oil tanker, Ross McCormack is completely isolated, Luke Murphy looks so far out of his depth it’s embarrassing, Lee Pelter tries but fails, Paddy Kenny is clearly injured yet McDermott doesn’t trust Cairns, so Kenny plays injured, Jason Peace is another trier but lacks quality, Tom Lees looks lost, Danny Pugh has the head of a 50 pence piece and Rudy Austin is consistently inconsistent.

Only Alex Mowatt and Zaliukas, along with McCormack show any real quality. Sam Byram is a shadow of himself at the moment.

It shows what a poor league the Championship is that we are 8th in the league but I suspect a second half of the season slide is coming up. 2 points from 12 over Christmas, totally awful.

 

[313103]

Anyway despite all that has gone on before Arsenal are strangely still top, despite having an inferior squad to the likes of everyone else and having just one striker. I only that they are top come the last game in May.

 

[JoeH]

Also, not really wanted to mention Manchester United but to be fair, Rooney and Ferdinand have been castigated by the media in the past for ‘over zealous celebrations’ in front of opposing fans

In the match where Ferdinand was hit by a coin?

 

[Donny Dave]

Also, not really wanted to mention Manchester United but to be fair, Rooney and Ferdinand have been castigated by the media in the past for ‘over zealous celebrations’ in front of opposing fans but Chris Taylor of Blackburn almost started a riot yesterday with his actions after the second Blackburn goal, best thing was, he didn’t even score it! And his tirade was directed at the front row of the North Stand, which is just full of disabled people and their carer’s, which I found odd.

What is the rule on players celebrating goals anyway? Sam Winnall received his second yellow card (and therefore a red card) against Bury, as he went and celebrated with the Scunthorpe United fans that made the trip. He was with them for 3 or 4 seconds at the most, no foul mouthed obscenities, just a quick celebration with them as a way of thanking them for their support. Yet other players intentionally wind up fans with over zealous celebrations, or celebrate with them, and nothing happens.

Anyway, having just seen MotD, when did Man Utd sell Howard Webb? hock: I've not seen any mention of the transfer anywhere! Joking aside, it was a shocking decision not to give a penalty for the foul on Young, and at least a yellow card for Lloris, a decision compounded by the farciacal booking for Januzaj, after he was caught late, and got up straight away ....

On to League 2 matters now. Alan Knill has now been sacked by Torquay. He's a walking disaster as a football manager, taking Scunthorpe United from the Championship to the brink of League 2, and taking Torquay from mid table in L2 to the brink of the trapdoor into non league football.

 

[JoeH]

Animation of the Lloris punch in the first minute. Even if for some reason you don't believe it shows conclusively that he handled the ball outside the box you must admit it's strange that the commentators made no mention of it and no replays were shown of it. A narrower shot from the sideline would have shown it clearly.

Here's an incident from the fifth minute. It does look to me that Lloris' body makes contact with Welbeck before Lloris can reach the ball but again it wasn't acknowledged by the commentators and no replays were shown. I'm not saying it's a clear penalty but the fact it wasn't scrutinised is strange.

 

[EM2]

And West Ham's first target of the transfer window, Johnny Heitinga, decides he really doesn't want to spend the next few years booting the ball aimlessly upfield. Can't say I blame him, really.

 

[balne-wonderer]

What is the rule on players celebrating goals anyway? Sam Winnall received his second yellow card (and therefore a red card) against Bury, as he went and celebrated with the Scunthorpe United fans that made the trip. He was with them for 3 or 4 seconds at the most, no foul mouthed obscenities, just a quick celebration with them as a way of thanking them for their support. Yet other players intentionally wind up fans with over zealous celebrations, or celebrate with them, and nothing happens.

Anyway, having just seen MotD, when did Man Utd sell Howard Webb? hock: I've not seen any mention of the transfer anywhere! Joking aside, it was a shocking decision not to give a penalty for the foul on Young, and at least a yellow card for Lloris, a decision compounded by the farciacal booking for Januzaj, after he was caught late, and got up straight away ....

On to League 2 matters now. Alan Knill has now been sacked by Torquay. He's a walking disaster as a football manager, taking Scunthorpe United from the Championship to the brink of League 2, and taking Torquay from mid table in L2 to the brink of the trapdoor into non league football.

Chris Taylor was up to tricks all game. But to be fair he was miles better then any of our midfield.

It just shocked me how he was aloud to get away with it. It was pretty blatant.

 

[DarloRich]

On to League 2 matters now. Alan Knill has now been sacked by Torquay. He's a walking disaster as a football manager, taking Scunthorpe United from the Championship to the brink of League 2, and taking Torquay from mid table in L2 to the brink of the trapdoor into non league football.

His main problem is that now Darlo have been removed from sight he is 6 points down before he starts.

I don’t think I ever saw us get so much as point against sides he played for or managed!

 

[richw]

JoeH based on the rules Lloris is not committing handball. The rules are if the player has no body part in contact with the ground at the time that it classes as wherever he last had contact with the ground. Inside the box in this case. If he jumped from in the box, its in the box, and vice versa.

 

[fowler9]

Looking at where Lloris landed then it must have been very close to the line where he actually touched the ball and not as clear cut as some people have made out.

As for the second clip it looks like Lloris went for the ball and won it. I am slightly biased but I don't really see any dispute.

 

[JoeH]

JoeH based on the rules Lloris is not committing handball. The rules are if the player has no body part in contact with the ground at the time that it classes as wherever he last had contact with the ground. Inside the box in this case. If he jumped from in the box, its in the box, and vice versa.

The rule in cricket, I think?

Can you provide evidence that in football anything but the position of the ball (outside of the box) matters?

Looking at where Lloris landed then it must have been very close to the line where he actually touched the ball and not as clear cut as some people have made out.

Lloris had little or no forward momentum at this point, he stopped dead like a stone on the edge of the box to try and avoid leaving it, but I think clearly had left it even if he didn't intend to.

As for the second clip it looks like Lloris went for the ball and won it. I am slightly biased but I don't really see any dispute.

Would be easier to see from another angle though, and I'm sure had the roles been reversed they we would have the benefit of a half dozen different angles to take a look at.

 

[fowler9]

The rule in cricket, I think?

Can you provide evidence that in football anything but the position of the ball (outside of the box) matters?

Either way from the clip above he doesn't look clearly over the line.

 

[JoeH]

Either way from the clip above he doesn't look clearly over the line.

Which if anything only strengthens the case I am trying to make? That debatable decisions that go against United are ignored and those in favour of United get analysed in forensic detail and brought up nine years later.

Had they showed replays from the side we could tell for sure.


BT instead chose to show dozens of replays of the Januzaj, Young and Welbeck incidents - with plenty of condemnation for their 'dives' when none were. BT's interviewer even demanded Moyes inform him what action he was going to take against the three divers.

 

[EM2]

Lloris had little or no forward momentum at this point, he stopped dead like a stone on the edge of the box to try and avoid leaving it, but I think clearly had left it even if he didn't intend to.

If he didn't intend to leave his area, then he can't have intended to have handled the ball outside it either, therefore no foul is committed.
http://www.thefa.com/football-rules...ball-11-11/law-12---fouls-and-misconduct.aspx

 

[JoeH]

If he didn't intend to leave his area, then he can't have intended to have handled the ball outside it either, therefore no foul is committed.
http://www.thefa.com/football-rules...ball-11-11/law-12---fouls-and-misconduct.aspx

I don't think he intended to leave his area but once he had left it he realised there was no choice but to punch the ball away despite being outside of his area.

The link you provided doesn't appear to say what you think it does, unless you meant to say he should have received a red card.
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A player, substitute or substituted player is sent off if he commits any of the following seven offences:

denying the opposing team a goal or an obvious goalscoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball (this does not apply to a goalkeeper within his own penalty area)

Notice that the offence is deliberately handling the ball, not deliberately leaving the box.

 

[gnolife]

Alty have signed Danny Higginbotham from Chester.