Football

[Haywain]

Who is hiding it at City?

You seem to be quite keen on arguing that it's not happening because of the money.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I've seen quite a few news outlets reporting the achievements as "historic". I suppose they are, in the sense that they've happened and will be recorded. But none of it is new or groundbreaking: other teams have won three trophies in a single season before, and other teams have won three successive league titles before. For journalists to use the word "historic" in this context is at best an attempt to "sex up" their article or boost their word count.

 

[Herefordian]

I have little interest or knowledge of football, so correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is:

Popular, successful clubs like Manchester United, Liverpool, Arsenal have raised money legitimately. Increased commercial revenue, ticket sales, etc.

Manchester City, who don't seem as popular, has obtained its sudden wealth through dishonest means.

If my understanding is true, I can see why people aren't happy. It's blatant cheating.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I have little interest or knowledge of football, so correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is:

Popular, successful clubs like Manchester United, Liverpool, Arsenal have raised money legitimately. Increased commercial revenue, ticket sales, etc.

Manchester City, who don't seem as popular, has obtained its sudden wealth through dishonest means.

If my understanding is true, I can see why people aren't happy. It's blatant cheating.

What Manchester City have done, I'd be wary of describing outright as dishonest or cheating. It's within the rules (Financial Fair Play breaches notwithstanding) but I'd argue not in the spirit of sport.

 

[SuspectUsual]

I have little interest or knowledge of football, so correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is:

Popular, successful clubs like Manchester United, Liverpool, Arsenal have raised money legitimately. Increased commercial revenue, ticket sales, etc.

Manchester City, who don't seem as popular, has obtained its sudden wealth through dishonest means.

If my understanding is true, I can see why people aren't happy. It's blatant cheating.

Manchester United are one of the least popular clubs in the country. They're divisive - their fans love them, others tend not to.

 

[THC]

Sounds like Brendan Rodgers might be on his way back to manage Celtic. Despite him leaving for Leicester last time at a pivotal point of a season, he's probably the most likely to get a tune out of the squad Ange Postecoglou left behind. I'd be happy enough with that.

THC

 

[Herefordian]

What Manchester City have done, I'd be wary of describing outright as dishonest or cheating. It's within the rules (Financial Fair Play breaches notwithstanding) but I'd argue not in the spirit of sport.

That's why I'm asking, I'm not really sure.

I understand the articles I've read on Manchester City, but with little grasp of FFP, it's hard to correlate the two.

I shall go and do some more reading.

Manchester United are one of the least popular clubs in the country. They're divisive - their fans love them, others tend not to.

Sorry, by most popular, I meant they have more supporters. My choice of phrase wasn't great.

Out of my friends and associates, most support the three clubs I've mentioned.

 

[SJL2020]

I've seen quite a few news outlets reporting the achievements as "historic". I suppose they are, in the sense that they've happened and will be recorded. But none of it is new or groundbreaking: other teams have won three trophies in a single season before, and other teams have won three successive league titles before. For journalists to use the word "historic" in this context is at best an attempt to "sex up" their article or boost their word count.

How about Scott Carson? Longest gap between Champions League medals won by any player in history.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

How about Scott Carson? Longest gap between Champions League medals won by any player in history.

That's an individual achievement though, not a team one.

 

[VauxhallandI]

You seem to be quite keen on arguing that it's not happening because of the money.

Where?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jun 2023 ==

I have little interest or knowledge of football, so correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is:

Popular, successful clubs like Manchester United, Liverpool, Arsenal have raised money legitimately. Increased commercial revenue, ticket sales, etc.

Manchester City, who don't seem as popular, has obtained its sudden wealth through dishonest means.

If my understanding is true, I can see why people aren't happy. It's blatant cheating.

I think you’ll find there is an angle on ll the funding of football teams, it’s just certain ones are highlighted more than others.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

How about Scott Carson? Longest gap between Champions League medals won by any player in history.

Well done that man, but did Carson actually appear in either the 2005 final (when with Liverpool) or the 2023 final (with Manchester City) or was he just an unused substitute goalkeeper on both occasions?

 

[SJL2020]

Well done that man, but did Carson actually appear in either the 2005 final (when with Liverpool) or the 2023 final (with Manchester City) or was he just an unused substitute goalkeeper on both occasions?

That's why I did the winky thing.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Well done that man, but did Carson actually appear in either the 2005 final (when with Liverpool) or the 2023 final (with Manchester City) or was he just an unused substitute goalkeeper on both occasions?

Unused sub, and this year actually third choice keeper as they also had Ortega on the bench

 

[Darandio]

That's why I'm asking, I'm not really sure.

I understand the articles I've read on Manchester City, but with little grasp of FFP, it's hard to correlate the two.

I shall go and do some more reading.

If you didn't have any interest before then don't do digging any further, it's a minefield. Much of that minefield has been caused by the powers that be, not the clubs.

Take Man City, they are majority owned by the vice president and deputy prime minister of the United Arab Emirates. He didn't always have those positions throughout his tenure at Man City but he's part of the ruling family and always held high positions of office. That makes Man City state owned.

Then go back to 2011. Man City were running at a loss and had one major trophy in over 40 years. They signed a £400m 10 year sponsorship deal with Etihad Airways. Who owns Etihad Airways? Some of the same people that own Man City. This was far more than double the value of any previous deal in worldwide sport. At the time it was called out as an obviously overinflated deal and there were no rules at the time to prevent it but it's a convenient way to pump large sums of money into your club to circumvent any of the useless restrictions in place at the time. There have been other deals and behind the scenes skullduggery regarding contracts and payments but this was quite extreme.

A fantastic squad with a fantastic manager built up over many years but many question the way they got there. As someone has already posted above it's probably not in the spirit of the sport but that doesn't really matter. Now we've got to just wait and see what happens when they end up in court again on far many more charges. The smart money is on them buying their way out of it again, probably following a guilty verdict on some charges followed by another appeal in an independent tribunal and stick one of their own non-independent guys on the board.

 

[SJL2020]

Then go back to 2011. Man City were running at a loss and had one major trophy in over 40 years. They signed a £400m 10 year sponsorship deal with Etihad Airways. Who owns Etihad Airways? Some of the same people that own Man City. This was far more than double the value of any previous deal in worldwide sport. At the time it was called out as an obviously overinflated deal and there were no rules at the time to prevent it but it's a convenient way to pump large sums of money into your club to circumvent any of the useless restrictions in place at the time. There have been other deals and behind the scenes skullduggery regarding contracts and payments but this was quite extreme.

A fantastic squad with a fantastic manager built up over many years but many question the way they got there. As someone has already posted above it's probably not in the spirit of the sport but that doesn't really matter. Now we've got to just wait and see what happens when they end up in court again on far many more charges. The smart money is on them buying their way out of it again, probably following a guilty verdict on some charges followed by another appeal in an independent tribunal and stick one of their own non-independent guys on the board.

I am not sure why you think there were no rules preventing an inflated sponsorship deal (i.e., disguised investment), because that was a key part of the list of charges brought by UEFA against Manchester City.

The Committee for Arbitration in Sport did indeed consider the evidence that supported UEFA's charge concerning the Etihad deal, and found that the charge was 'not established'.

The other arrangement they looked at was the one with Etisalat, the telecoms company. In that case CAS ruled that in bringing the charge UEFA had not followed their own rulebook, so that aspect of the case was also dismissed.

The one aspect of the charge sheet that City was found guilty of was that of 'non-cooperation', which was essentially City taking the advice of their lawyers not to cooperate with a process managed by a sporting body that was blatantly under pressure from the G14 clubs to arrive at a pre-determined outcome.

In terms of 'sticking one of their own guys on the board', that is the way that CAS works. You forgot to mention that UEFA were also able to nominate a representative on the panel of three.

 

[Darandio]

I am not sure why you think there were no rules preventing an inflated sponsorship deal (i.e., disguised investment), because that was a key part of the list of charges brought by UEFA against Manchester City.

There were no Premier League FMV (Fair Market Value) rules in place at the time.

In terms of 'sticking one of their own guys on the board', that is the way that CAS works. You forgot to mention that UEFA were also able to nominate a representative on the panel of three.

And that guy is supposed to be independent. He wasn't, no matter how they dress up how direct his dealings were with Etisalat and Etihad. The issue was UEFA agreed to it highlighting how incompetent they are when trying to enforce all of the rules and regulations they create. That's nothing new.

 

[SJL2020]

The pre

There were no Premier League FMV (Fair Market Value) rules in place at the time.



And that guy is supposed to be independent. He wasn't, no matter how they dress up how direct his dealings were with Etisalat and Etihad. The issue was UEFA agreed to it highlighting how incompetent they are when trying to enforce all of the rules and regulations they create. That's nothing new.

UEFA didn't "agree to it". The recourse to CAS is allowed for by UEFA's own rulebook.

 

[AlterEgo]

The fact that you are all arguing about the finer points of club financials is exactly why modern top level football is increasingly boring. Not a dig at the contributors, as they are taking on a crucial point!

City's milquetoast star will wane when the owners realise the club cannot and will not ever occupy a cultural space with the same level of clout as Manchester United, Liverpool, or even Arsenal. That is what it is all about for them, and they will realise within a few years that winning one European Cup places them on the same level as Aston Villa, and two will make them like Forest. They will never be Real Madrid with 14 of them, and that's a club with an unshakeable attachment to an actual fascist regime!

The domestic pre-Etihad fanbase are just happy their team is successful and are probably cognisciant that they will be back down in mid table in ten years, just as Chelsea were.

Meanwhile, outside the PL, there are 72 clubs below the PL offering much better value for the fans' emotional investment.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Meanwhile, outside the PL, there are 72 clubs below the PL offering much better value for the fans' emotional investment.

That rather depends on the club... my season ticket for Huddersfield Town will be £250 for next season... but at "massive" Sheffield Wednesday a season ticket starts at an eye-watering £565!

 

[SJL2020]

The fact that you are all arguing about the finer points of club financials is exactly why modern top level football is increasingly boring. Not a dig at the contributors, as they are taking on a crucial point!

City's milquetoast star will wane when the owners realise the club cannot and will not ever occupy a cultural space with the same level of clout as Manchester United, Liverpool, or even Arsenal. That is what it is all about for them, and they will realise within a few years that winning one European Cup places them on the same level as Aston Villa, and two will make them like Forest. They will never be Real Madrid with 14 of them, and that's a club with an unshakeable attachment to an actual fascist regime!

The domestic pre-Etihad fanbase are just happy their team is successful and are probably cognisciant that they will be back down in mid table in ten years, just as Chelsea were.

Meanwhile, outside the PL, there are 72 clubs below the PL offering much better value for the fans' emotional investment.

I like football financials!

Liverpool and United haven't always been the establishment clubs of football. From the viewpoint of Villa and Sunderland, the red shirt clubs were the original upstarts. United had only won two league titles before Busby shook them up in the postwar period.

I'm much more fearful that City will become accepted as an establishment club than otherwise, at least by the European elite. The invitation that came to join in with the (abortive) Super League breakaway suggests they might already be well on the way to becoming just that...

 

[Purple Train]

Interesting news coming from Huddersfield.

Neil Warnock: Huddersfield Town boss signs new one-year deal to remain with club

Huddersfield Town boss Neil Warnock signs a one-year deal to remain with the Championship club for the 2023-24 season.

www.bbc.co.uk

Huddersfield Town manager Neil Warnock has signed a one-year deal to remain with the Championship club for the 2023-24 season.

The 74-year-old came out of retirement in February to rejoin the club until the end of the season.
The Terriers were 23rd in the table on his arrival, but won seven of their 15 games under Warnock and finished 18th - nine points off the relegation places.

"This is now a chance for me to put something back into the club," he said.

"After having conversations with [chief executive] Jake Edwards, it became obvious that this was going to be a difficult job for me to leave and for anybody new to come into after what we'd built at the end of last season.

"We're quietly confident - I know what the club is all about and I have to say, the response I got after those last two games is something I've never experienced in my whole life."

I know there are some resident Terriers here: what do you think of this?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Interesting news coming from Huddersfield.

Neil Warnock: Huddersfield Town boss signs new one-year deal to remain with club

Huddersfield Town boss Neil Warnock signs a one-year deal to remain with the Championship club for the 2023-24 season.

www.bbc.co.uk

I know there are some resident Terriers here: what do you think of this?

There had been rumours that he'd agreed to stay on going round since the end of the season, with plenty on our messageboard in the last few days claiming it was just a case of sorting out the details. Glad to now have it confirmed, Warnock is a safe pair of hands for the coming season which is likely to be one of transition with the new owner coming in. Just hope he doesn't do himself a mischief at his age! Obviously he isn't a long-term appointment but then football managers seldom are. When it was assumed he wouldn't stay on I was struggling to think of who would be a good candidate, maybe Duff at Barnsley.

 

[Purple Train]

When it was assumed he wouldn't stay on I was struggling to think of who would be a good candidate, maybe Duff at Barnsley.

Steve Bruce is available.

Anyway, hopefully Warnock will be able to work some magic with you; it's been a shame to see your fall from grace in the past few years. Good luck for the coming season (but please don't do the double over us )

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Steve Bruce is available.

Anyway, hopefully Warnock will be able to work some magic with you; it's been a shame to see your fall from grace in the past few years. Good luck for the coming season (but please don't do the double over us )

Once was enough with Bruce- most Town fans haven't forgiven him for bottling a play-off push by letting Marcus Stewart leave, nor taking a week off to go and work for Sky Sports in the middle of the season.

The frustrating thing of the last few years is that we haven't really felt the benefit of our spell in the greedy league, and didn't have chance to build on the magnificent season we had under Corberan in 21/22. I wouldn't call it a "fall from grace" myself though- when I started watching we were in the third division (now League One) and playing in front of crowds of 6-7,000 in a stadium that despite it's old-school charm was falling to bits.

Not that I'll be complaining if we're fighting at the right end of the table next season, of course!

Oh, and apologies for not remembering which team you support... your name doesn't give any clues.

 

[Purple Train]

Oh, and apologies for not remembering which team you support... your name doesn't give any clues.

I don't think I've even mentioned it on here so you're fine - I'm a long-suffering supporter of the only proper side in Bristol

The frustrating thing of the last few years is that we haven't really felt the benefit of our spell in the greedy league, and didn't have chance to build on the magnificent season we had under Corberan in 21/22. I wouldn't call it a "fall from grace" myself though- when I started watching we were in the third division (now League One) and playing in front of crowds of 6-7,000 in a stadium that despite it's old-school charm was falling to bits.

Interesting. I've taken an interest in your fortunes (as the last job that David Wagner did decently in) since the Premier League days and it's interesting to see the longer-term perspective. Has there traditionally been a feeling that Huddersfield were a "small club who punched above their weight" when they got to the Prem, or had it always been a goal?

 

[Haywain]

I don't think I've even mentioned it on here so you're fine - I'm a long-suffering supporter of the only proper side in Bristol

When will Huddersfield be playing Bristol Rovers?

 

[swt_passenger]

Once was enough with Bruce- most Town fans haven't forgiven him for bottling a play-off push by letting Marcus Stewart leave, nor taking a week off to go and work for Sky Sports in the middle of the season.

It’s a sad indictment of Bruce‘s coaching “skills” how many of the Newcastle players that were there with him have improved so dramatically under Eddie Howe.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I don't think I've even mentioned it on here so you're fine - I'm a long-suffering supporter of the only proper side in Bristol

Interesting. I've taken an interest in your fortunes (as the last job that David Wagner did decently in) since the Premier League days and it's interesting to see the longer-term perspective. Has there traditionally been a feeling that Huddersfield were a "small club who punched above their weight" when they got to the Prem, or had it always been a goal?

We have a big history of course, being the first side to win the league title three times in succession... but there's only a handful of very old people still around from then. Of course every team will have the aim of finishing as high up their league as they can, so getting back into the top division was always a hope.
When we went up in 2017 we had one of the lowest budgets in the Championship, so getting promoted was a remarkable achievement in that context. That we also stayed up in the first season was another great achievement, but the naivety of the club hierarchy showed with some of the ridiculous signings we made that summer.
Having "bought the t-shirt", there wasn't quite as much riding on last year's Play-off final for us, I knew if we went up it isn't all sunshine and rainbows in the Premier League (though the manner of the defeat still stings a bit). If your club can manage to get promoted you'll probably make a decent job of it with a bit of luck, Bristol is a big city with a fair bit of potential to sustain a mid-table or better club in the Premier League.

 

[Purple Train]

Having "bought the t-shirt", there wasn't quite as much riding on last year's Play-off final for us, I knew if we went up it isn't all sunshine and rainbows in the Premier League (though the manner of the defeat still stings a bit). If your club can manage to get promoted you'll probably make a decent job of it with a bit of luck, Bristol is a big city with a fair bit of potential to sustain a mid-table or better club in the Premier League.

Indeed, and I can remember, in the League One promotion season, Steve Cotterill made a lot of noise about getting to the Premier League as the infrastructure was there, and - him having hauled us from bottom of the table to 12th in half a season beforehand and then sent us up with 99 points and completed the "double" - it seemed attainable, even under the reign of Lee Johnson (streakier than bacon), and then we missed out on the playoffs a few seasons in a row, Johnson got sacked (quite harshly I thought), and it's been a bit of a disaster show since.
The problem I have with the club is that the entire transfer policy needs improvement - we're exceptionally good at developing young players and selling them all the minute they get good - and not putting any money at all back into the squad, except to sign other young players to sell for vast sums before they get good... and repeat. We have the facilities for the Premier League, just not the mindset.

 

[WatcherZero]

Sale of Wigan Athletic has gone through, local billionaire Mike Danson who already owns 25% of Warriors (and has a buyout clause allowing him to take his ownership to 75% if he chooses to exercise it). EFL waved him through the fit and proper owner test in days.
Mike Danson founded the financial market analytics firm Datamonitor in 1989 then sold it for £513m in 2007 netting him personally £370m, after the sale he then immediately expanded his holding company GlobalData (founded in 1999) pursuing similar commercial activities as Datamonitor and following some acquisitions of rivals the company currently has a market valuation of £1.24bn. Sunday Times ranks him as the 134th richest person in the country with a personal wealth of £1.28bn. Hopefully this means less financial concerns than with the last two foreign owners.