Football Hooligans - AGAIN

[DarloRich]

@BestWestern - you havent comented on the post i made at #167 setting out my policing experiances. Do these action not happen in your region? Would you consider them helpful? (or does it not fit with your agenda?)

 

[BestWestern]

@BestWestern - you havent comented on the post i made at #167 setting out my policing experiances. Do these action not happen in your region? Would you consider them helpful? (or does it not fit with your agenda?)

Apologies for missing your post. I would have to say, in all honesty, that the level of pro-active policing you describe is not something which we regularly see in my area. Yes the BTP are there, but generally only at the destination of the fans and not travelling on board the trains to or from it. I have had some instances where officers have traveled on a return working, but sadly it is a rare occurrence. One instance which sticks in my mind was a trainload of fans leaving Cardiff, some BTP officers informed me that they would be travelling with me, very welcome news - and they then promptly alighted at Newport, one stop and ten minutes down the line. The fans were travelling a fair bit further.

One of the issues with BTP are the scarce resources available to them, and another is an apparent unwillingness to venture too far from their patch, which does rather stifle any attempts at policing the trains themselves. I know quite well a BTP special constable who has been involved in policing football matches, including travelling on trains with fans. He has told me of situations where fights have broken out amongst fans in packed coaches, and officers have left them to sort it out among themselves, understandably reluctant to wade in and risk starting a mass brawl. Again, the suggestion that anybody behaving in an unacceptable manner should be politely asked to desist, or if not be taken into custody, is often just not workable.

 

[balne-wonderer]

First rule of this thread: you do not criticise Leeds.

Second rule of this thread: you do not mention Leeds.

Third rule: Do not generalise, especially about things you know about it.

Forth rule: Do not let your hatred of something become so obvious when your trying to make a point about something else

Now go and shout at your pictures of Billy Bremner.

 

[DarloRich]

@ Best Western - Agenda was the wrong word - sorry

As i said i assumed it must happen country wide, it is concerning that such policing does not! perhaps it should!

Thinking further perhaps the TOC's cover the overtime. There must be some "cross area" policing as the train from the NE to London crosses from NE territory into London North territory somewhere near Peterborough and the BTP officers dont change.

 

[Bellwater]

Third rule: Do not generalise, especially about things you know about it.

Forth rule: Do not let your hatred of something become so obvious when your trying to make a point about something else

Now go and shout at your pictures of Billy Bremner.

Fifth Rule: Learn how to construct a phrase properly if you want to have a dig at someone.

 

[Christof Royal]

Thanks for your response, also some good points although I have the following observations

It is apparent that those who are football fans and regularly attend matches appear largely blind to the way in which large groups of supporters are perceived by other members of the public

I can appreciate that large groups of people could be perceived as intimidating by some, but not all (whether football-related or not).

and seem unable to appreciate that a sizable crowd of shouting, boisterous and generally alcohol-fueled people is intimidating and unpleasant.

I am quite capable of appreciating that, if this were the case then it would be intimidating and unpleasant. However, I do not believe that football crowds are always like this. Some (a small minority) undoubtedly are, and need to be handled in an appropriate fashion (a topic for another day). However, most (the vast majority) are not, and what I object to is the generalisation that 'we are all the same'.

Travellers who have boarded a train with the expectation of a normal civilised journey do not want to be in that environment, and understandably so.

Agree

Those of us who work such trains can confirm that excessive shouting, usually involving generous use of foul language, and messy consumption of large quantities of booze are regular aspects of match day journeys, and can vouch for how it unsettles and irritates everybody else. And that is on a 'good' journey where nothing major kicks off. It isn't acceptable and people have a right not to have put up with it, end of.

Agree, for those journeys. However, my experience is that over the last few years (involving dozens of journeys to away matches by train), I have not seen these things. I'm not saying they don't happen, but that they are very much the exception.

As for those arrest figures, they are meaningless.

Lies, damned lies, statistics etc - however they do show that out the millions attending football matches, a very small proportion get into trouble, so to tar everyone with the same brush and make us all submit to unnecessary inconvenience (i.e. journeys only from home grounds to away grounds etc.) is not acceptable to me.

Anyway, as I said before, genuinely welcome this debate, so thanks for sharing.

P.S. FAO Bellwater, you're going to have to spell out your post about Leeds, I don't know whether it is meant to be funny or not, so whoosh away...

 

[Bellwater]

Christof, what it means is Leeds Utd have some of the most well behaved fans in the world, well humoured and good natured, and they were once Champions of Europe!

(In reality I mentioned Leeds are the worst travelling fans I've ever had and there's been a bit of crying and a couple of threats against me for saying as such)

 

[D1009]

I think this debate has little to do with football.

There are people who want to be boisterous, noisy, generally obnoxious, call it what you will, and drink helps destroy what inhibitions they had. A large crowd also helps as it provides "ssafety in numbers".

There are other people who are basically miserable and want to complain if they get anything less than a perfect experience of anything they do, particularly if they have paid for a train ticket. They are usually quite "mature" and are often hypocritical as when they were younger they were in the fomer catergory.

Then there is the majority of people for whom boisterous and noisy people are inconvenient, but not something worth getting upset about. I'm quite old, a non football supporter who likes a pint (of real ale) and I belong to this group, though if there is a big football match on I try to avoid the trains most likely to be involved.

A conscientious guard of course sees his or her job as providing as good a service as possible to everyone and has to sort out the situation, but it's often the miserable ones who cause him or her the most grief.

I get the impression that most people on this forum are rail enthusiasts, can anyone swear on the bible that they have never in their lives publicly behaved in a manner of which others may have disapproved ?

 

[Minilad]

Some very good points. It is apparent that those who are football fans and regularly attend matches appear largely blind to the way in which large groups of supporters are perceived by other members of the public, and seem unable to appreciate that a sizable crowd of shouting, boisterous and generally alcohol-fueled people is intimidating and unpleasant. Travellers who have boarded a train with the expectation of a normal civilised journey do not want to be in that environment, and understandably so. Those of us who work such trains can confirm that excessive shouting, usually involving generous use of foul language, and messy consumption of large quantities of booze are regular aspects of match day journeys, and can vouch for how it unsettles and irritates everybody else. And that is on a 'good' journey where nothing major kicks off. It isn't acceptable and people have a right not to have put up with it, end of.

Hope you are not working any trains around the Cheltenham Festival in March then as you have just described race goers to a tee.
Time to ban people travelling to horse racing meets by train ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think this debate has little to do with football.

Correct it just exists for people to display their prejudice and lack of knowledge

 

[Flamingo]

Large groups of people travelling to any event are potentially hard work.

What differentiates football fans:
1. They are the most common.

2. They have a more developed sense of identification to their team. I can't imagine racegoers having a fight because one group have put their money on one horse, and one on another

3. They are more easily identified because of their dress, both by themselves, by opponents, and by the general public. See my comments re racegoers above - racegoers as a rule just look like they are going to a chav wedding, rather than identifying with a particular horse or trainer!

4. As I said in an earlier post, there is a sizable minority of football fans who actively encourage and appear to take pride in an unsavoury reputation.

When all these things are added together, it is easy to see why all can be tarred with the same brush. Crying about this is not going to change it.

 

[Christof Royal]

Bellwater: fair enough, my betes noires are Wolverhampton Wanderers

D1009 and XCDriver: spot on

Flamingo:
1 - yes, we do like a popular sport!
2 - agree that team sports need a competitive edge.
3 - troublemakers will not often be easily identifiable for one side or another, apart from their own 'uniform' (is Stone Island still 'in'?). None of them will wear colours in case they get caught.
4 - rubbish, very few supporters from a very small number of clubs would fit into this category, and so don't agree with the 'tarring' of all of us.

Hey ho, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree...

 

[BestWestern]

Large groups of people travelling to any event are potentially hard work.

What differentiates football fans:
1. They are the most common.

2. They have a more developed sense of identification to their team. I can't imagine racegoers having a fight because one group have put their money on one horse, and one on another

3. They are more easily identified because of their dress, both by themselves, by opponents, and by the general public. See my comments re racegoers above - racegoers as a rule just look like they are going to a chav wedding, rather than identifying with a particular horse or trainer!

4. As I said in an earlier post, there is a sizable minority of football fans who actively encourage and appear to take pride in an unsavoury reputation.

When all these things are added together, it is easy to see why all can be tarred with the same brush. Crying about this is not going to change it.

Absolutely spot on. The simple fact is that, rightly or wrongly, football fans do have a universal reputation as being a problem - or are all 'tarred' with the proverbial brush if you prefer. It isn't simply a narrow minded view held by a small number of people on this forum, that reputation does exist and there is clearly a reason for it. People's views on this can be exchanged and dismissed on here all day long, but the reputation is what it is. As much as it might have first been formed a long time ago when things might have been worse than they are today, there is an element among the current football fraternity who continue to perpetuate these views through their behaviour.

Yes there are other groups who can be just as bad, and they should be dealt with just as harshly. However they are far less frequent and in a small minority. Sadly it is the footie lot who tend to be the problem much of the time, for whatever reason that may be.

 

[balne-wonderer]

Fifth Rule: Learn how to construct a phrase properly if you want to have a dig at someone.

It's a well known fact that people who attempt to correct others on grammar/spelling etc on internet forums are usually those that have made themselves look stupid on the actual subject of the thread.

A case we have here quite clearly You are a man full of hate and arrogance, you may need therapy.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Christof, what it means is Leeds Utd have some of the most well behaved fans in the world, well humoured and good natured, and they were once Champions of Europe!

(In reality I mentioned Leeds are the worst travelling fans I've ever had and there's been a bit of crying and a couple of threats against me for saying as such)

There was no threats levelled against Bellwater, please all read back on this thread. He has accused me and another poster and threatening him yet he cannot back it up. He is getting desperate that his comments are not only offensive they are also baseless and show someone who knows little about what he is talking about.

He has resorted to crying about people wanting to beat him up and posting incorrectly. He has failed to provide proof of these 'threats'.

As you can tell from his posts, he clearly has a major chip on his shoulder about Leeds United and has allowed that hatred to overspill. It's sad people have to reduce themselves to that level because they don't like something.

 

[DarloRich]

Absolutely spot on. The simple fact is that, rightly or wrongly, football fans do have a universal reputation as being a problem - or are all 'tarred' with the proverbial brush if you prefer. It isn't simply a narrow minded view held by a small number of people on this forum, that reputation does exist and there is clearly a reason for it. People's views on this can be exchanged and dismissed on here all day long, but the reputation is what it is. As much as it might have first been formed a long time ago when things might have been worse than they are today, there is an element among the current football fraternity who continue to perpetuate these views through their behaviour.

Yes there are other groups who can be just as bad, and they should be dealt with just as harshly. However they are far less frequent and in a small minority. Sadly it is the footie lot who tend to be the problem much of the time, for whatever reason that may be.

But that is based on outdated preconceptions which are perpetuated by people who refuse to recognise the vast chnage that has taken place within the football following fraternitry in the last 15-20 years.

But that is based on outdated preconceptions which are perpetuated by people who refuse to recognise the vast change that has taken place within the football following fraternity in the last 15-20 years.

Apart from the OP no one has suggested anything remotely connected with "trouble". All I have seen is anecdotal evidence of high spirits, a bit of chanting, and some boisterousness.

You will see much worse behaviour on the last train off Newcastle on a weekend or on a late train off York following a race night - if these people don’t cause any trouble why do the BTP make every late night train from York to Middlesbrough/Newcastle alcohol free?

Perhaps the work that I see regularly by the BTP/TOC’s on north eastern routes should be replicated nationwide. However, the fact remains that you are extremely unlikely to encounter football related “trouble” on trains. You are more likely to be assaulted on a train by a random chav/ drunk than by a football fan.

 

[Oswyntail]

....
Apart from the OP no one has suggested anything remotely connected with "trouble". All I have seen is anecdotal evidence of high spirits, a bit of chanting, and some boisterousness. ....

...which, in the context, could be construed as "trouble". Where do "high spirits" end and intimidation begin? Does "a bit of chanting" about how the opposition is "hated" sound acceptable? "Boisterousness" covers a whole spectrum of activity, not all of it acceptable. OK, I am not a football follower, so there will be some who argue I cannot possibly understand what goes on within the crowd. To that i reply that, perhaps, only those outside the football crowd can fully appreciate the effect it has on those around it.

 

[DarloRich]

...which, in the context, could be construed as "trouble". Where do "high spirits" end and intimidation begin? Does "a bit of chanting" about how the opposition is "hated" sound acceptable? "Boisterousness" covers a whole spectrum of activity, not all of it acceptable. OK, I am not a football follower, so there will be some who argue I cannot possibly understand what goes on within the crowd. To that i reply that, perhaps, only those outside the football crowd can fully appreciate the effect it has on those around it.

but none of that can in any way be classed as "trouble" as a football fan would understand it.

 

[ex-railwayman]

I remember a story from the early 1980's, a driver from Nottingham once told me he had to work a football special from Nottingham to Lincoln on a weekday night for a Notts County v Lincoln City cup match. The club chartered a four car Class 114 DMU and after they had got to Lincoln the driver and guard discovered all the lightbulbs had been smashed, seats slashed and torn away from their fittings, toilet seats and loo rolls thrown all over the carriages, a complete mess. He said the biggest laugh came when he pulled into Lincoln Central and saw the look of horror on the faces of the fans, as they were probably expecting a different train to take them on the return journey back to Nottingham after the game. He said he had the best seat on the train as 2/3rd's of the fans had to stand up in the pitch dark for the whole journey home, they couldn't use the toilets and he had 2 BT coppers with him in the cab as they weren't too bothered going into the carriages and he made 2 hours overtime taking the stricken train back to the depot, writing out the reports of damage, Police reports, etc. He always used to volunteer for any football charters as he said he always made an absolute packet on those trips, the good 'ole days.

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.

 

[Oswyntail]

but none of that can in any way be classed as "trouble" as a football fan would understand it.

Exactly - but it can be trouble as non-football fans see it. I agree that only a small minority of fans are seriously violent. But the behaviour of the majority as part of the "football crowd" can be seen as unacceptable by those not in the crowd. The failure to "see yourself as others see you" is at the heart of the problem

 

[Bellwater]

Ex-Railwayman, I seem to be going through a period right now where I'm making plenty of overtime due to operating incidents..

 

[ex-railwayman]

Good for you, keep it up.

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.

 

[Flamingo]

but none of that can in any way be classed as "trouble" as a football fan would understand it.

Well, that's the difference, really. I would say most reasonable people would consider that behavior intimidating and "trouble" - to a football fan, it is "just the lads havin a larf".

I might say that constant exposure to it raises the tolerance level.

I had four hundred Cardiff fans on my train (up) on Sunday. It was loud, and the alcohol ban was openly flouted as soon as it became apparent that there was no BTP on the train, just me and a whistle.

However, I only got what I would call hassle from about a dozen who were objecting to moving out of 1st rather than paying the £15 upgrade, (four of whom were Arsenal fans), and I only got real abuse from two Cardiff fans, who eventually settled down (and moved) after being told that they WOULD be leaving the train at Swindon, and police would be waiting for them there. If we had been on the way home though, without the threat of not getting to the game, I would say that the two wouldn't have cared and it would have ended in tears (theirs).

Mind you, I would say that the average Sunday traveler would have found it intimidating, I certainly would NOT have taken my wife and kids on that train, they would have been very uncomfortable if they had been in the middle of it.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Well, that's the difference, really. I would say most reasonable people would consider that behavior intimidating and "trouble" - to a football fan, it is "just the lads havin a larf".

I might say that constant exposure to it raises the tolerance level.

I had four hundred Cardiff fans on my train (up) on Sunday. It was loud, and the alcohol ban was openly flouted as soon as it became apparent that there was no BTP on the train, just me and a whistle.

However, I only got what I would call hassle from about a dozen who were objecting to moving out of 1st rather than paying the £15 upgrade, (four of whom were Arsenal fans), and I only got real abuse from two Cardiff fans, who eventually settled down (and moved) after being told that they WOULD be leaving the train at Swindon, and police would be waiting for them there. If we had been on the way home though, without the threat of not getting to the game, I would say that the two wouldn't have cared and it would have ended in tears (theirs).

Mind you, I would say that the average Sunday traveler would have found it intimidating, I certainly would NOT have taken my wife and kids on that train, they would have been very uncomfortable if they had been in the middle of it.

Out of curiosity, what about Wales rugby fans going to London on the saturday?
Certainly in my experience, rugby fans are no different. I have been on a train of rugby fans between newport and cardiff on a matchday, and have seen much worse behaviour than I have seen from any football fans on public transport.

 

[DarloRich]

Well, that's the difference, really. I would say most reasonable people would consider that behavior intimidating and "trouble" - to a football fan, it is "just the lads havin a larf".

I might say that constant exposure to it raises the tolerance level.

I had four hundred Cardiff fans on my train (up) on Sunday. It was loud, and the alcohol ban was openly flouted as soon as it became apparent that there was no BTP on the train, just me and a whistle.

However, I only got what I would call hassle from about a dozen who were objecting to moving out of 1st rather than paying the £15 upgrade, (four of whom were Arsenal fans), and I only got real abuse from two Cardiff fans, who eventually settled down (and moved) after being told that they WOULD be leaving the train at Swindon, and police would be waiting for them there. If we had been on the way home though, without the threat of not getting to the game, I would say that the two wouldn't have cared and it would have ended in tears (theirs).

Mind you, I would say that the average Sunday traveler would have found it intimidating, I certainly would NOT have taken my wife and kids on that train, they would have been very uncomfortable if they had been in the middle of it.

See that is the point i make. Like on the NE trains the BTP should be on these trains. It was a cup final, why were they not there to support TOC staff?

But again there is a difference between those who were loud and those who set out to abuse you. Those who abuse you should be chucked off.

 

[VP185]

BTP did travel back on the 20:37 out of Paddington.

The alcohol ban was flouted but, from what I saw, they had about 1 or 2 cans each.... they weren't carrying crates of the stuff.
You can hardly strip search every single passenger boarding the train.

Football clubs do need to do more rather than wash their hands of supporters as soon as they leave the ground.

 

[Clip]

Football clubs do need to do more rather than wash their hands of supporters as soon as they leave the ground.

Why should they? Im struggling to think of any other business that does exactly that when they have large crowds leave their premises.

 

[Christof Royal]

BTP did travel back on the 20:37 out of Paddington.

The alcohol ban was flouted but, from what I saw, they had about 1 or 2 cans each.... they weren't carrying crates of the stuff.
You can hardly strip search every single passenger boarding the train.

Football clubs do need to do more rather than wash their hands of supporters as soon as they leave the ground.

VP185, 2 questions:-
- was there any trouble on your train?
- what more should be done by clubs in your opinion?

 

[Flamingo]

Out of curiosity, what about Wales rugby fans going to London on the saturday?
Certainly in my experience, rugby fans are no different. I have been on a train of rugby fans between newport and cardiff on a matchday, and have seen much worse behaviour than I have seen from any football fans on public transport.

The rugby fans going up were OK. But I have to say that I mentally differentiate between those going "to the game" (who are as a rule fine), and those going into Cardiff to watch the game in a pub (who are as a rule a pain in the arrse).

My wife has commented on this on several occasions that the whole atmosphere changes when you leave the Millennium Stadium. It is a different crowd in the city as a whole than inside the stadium. And you are right, there are a large proportion that are boorish drunken thugs that are just looking for a fight - and that's just the women!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

See that is the point i make. Like on the NE trains the BTP should be on these trains. It was a cup final, why were they not there to support TOC staff?

But again there is a difference between those who were loud and those who set out to abuse you. Those who abuse you should be chucked off.

But there was only me to chuck them off - on my own - and all my manager would have said was that I shouldn't have antagonized them by checking tickets...

According to those staff working the evening trains, there were about 80 BTP on a special train - which was practically empty. The bulk of the fans traveled on scheduled trains with minimal (if any) BTP presence.

 

[DarloRich]

Flamingo - that is my point. You shouldnt be put in that posistion. it might be worth havinga look at my post at #167 which sets out what i have often experianceed with regard to BTP support on services with lots of football fans on.

As i said i am not sure if East Coast TOC's contribute to BTP overtime for this service but it does seem to keep things under control. They enforce alcohol bans zealously!

 

[BestWestern]

but none of that can in any way be classed as "trouble" as a football fan would understand it.

That single observation sums up the situation perfectly. Many travelling football fans (as well as certain other groups) consider being loud, boisterous, visibly drunk and so on as being an acceptable part of their day out, whilst in reality it simply isn't acceptable. End of conversation really

 

[Flamingo]

Flamingo - that is my point. You shouldnt be put in that posistion. it might be worth havinga look at my post at #167 which sets out what i have often experianceed with regard to BTP support on services with lots of football fans on.

As i said i am not sure if East Coast TOC's contribute to BTP overtime for this service but it does seem to keep things under control. They enforce alcohol bans zealously!

Thanks for your concern! Mind you, once I got going and assessed the crowd, I was happy enough on my own. The ones that had got beer on board (or suspicious looking coke bottles) were happy enough, any attempt to enforce the alcohol ban would have only antagonised them. Beavis and his friend who were looking for trouble pulled their neck in when the consequences were explained to them, and TBH, one gets used to working trains and being "responsible" for 6-700 people on your own. It's knowing when to kiss ass, kick ass or haul ass, really!