Fog blocking lines

[G0ORC]

in all of my 40 years in the industry I have never known fog cause too much of a problem, even in manually signalled areas.

I see today that all lines between Hull and Doncaster are blocked because of fog, and trains have terminated short at Hull and elsewhere.

It must have been pretty severe for this to happen - the only thing I can think of is that some crossings that have to be seen from the SB (either physically or by CCTV) could not be seen by the signaller and enough staff were not available to man them locally.

Is this the reason - or something else...

 

[Deepgreen]

Sounds like absolute nonsense to me - someone has dreamt up a weather-related excuse for a service suspension. I have never heard of any service having been suspended for fog in the history of railways. Certain restrictions MAY be introduced in extreme condions (lower speed limits, for example) but never complete cessation.

 

[Carntyne]

Sounds like absolute nonsense to me - someone has dreamt up a weather-related excuse for a service suspension. I have never heard of any service having been suspended for fog in the history of railways. Certain restrictions MAY be introduced in extreme condions (lower speed limits, for example) but never complete cessation.

Why would a railway company want to suspend their railway?

 

[westv]

My service -Hull Trains 06:26 to London - got through that area with no problems.

 

[GB]

I don't know much of the geography up there but there was a reported Cat A spad somewhere up there that probably has something to do with it.

 

[bengley]

There was a cat A spad and the driver reported he was unfit to continue - they have to wait for a relieving driver to arrive.

 

[G0ORC]

There was a cat A spad and the driver reported he was unfit to continue - they have to wait for a relieving driver to arrive.

Surely then its an "operating incident" that has caused the problem and not fog.

 

[GB]

Surely then its an "operating incident" that has caused the problem and not fog.

Yes, but perhaps the TOCs twitter team were misinformed, misunderstood or simply trying to deflect the cause onto something else.

 

[Deepgreen]

Surely then its an "operating incident" that has caused the problem and not fog.

Exactly - my point was that it sounds very much like a different issue is being blamed on fog. A railway would not want to suspend its service, but may want to blame the weather rather than something within their control.

I am only speculating about the above, but the fact is that a railway should never have to cease operation purely owing to fog - modern (and not-so-modern) signalling is designed to cope with these conditions.

 

[pdeaves]

I can't say for this specific incident, but as intimated earlier in the thread, fog can affect CCTV crossings. If the signaller can't see the crossing clear, they have to assume it isn't.

 

[GW43125]

I can't say for this specific incident, but as intimated earlier in the thread, fog can affect CCTV crossings. If the signaller can't see the crossing clear, they have to assume it isn't.

A while ago, i was on the SWT line down to Reading in thick fog. because of this, we were cautioned over Sunningdale LC, presumably the signaller couldn't see the crossing?

 

[martin2345uk]

What's a "cat A" SPAD if I may ask..?

 

[daikilo]

If there is any semaphore signalling then fog-men may be required. In dense fog, the light of a semaphore on a gantry may become almost invisible. Disorientation can also occur.

 

[najaB]

What's a "cat A" SPAD if I may ask..?

I think that the Wikipedia article is basically correct.

 

[headshot119]

What's a "cat A" SPAD if I may ask..?

A Signal Passed At Danger (Red Signal) without authority.

Cat B - Equipment failure or signaler error
Cat C - Emergency
Cat D - Unattended runaway

Cat B - D are now referred to as SPARs (Signal Passed At Red)

 

[G0ORC]

If there is any semaphore signalling then fog-men may be required. In dense fog, the light of a semaphore on a gantry may become almost invisible. Disorientation can also occur.

True - but, as I said in 40 years experience I have never known fog close railway lines, manually signalled or otherwise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm guessing in this case thick fog caused loss of situational awareness in the driver, resulting in a SPAD.

 

[Deepgreen]

A while ago, i was on the SWT line down to Reading in thick fog. because of this, we were cautioned over Sunningdale LC, presumably the signaller couldn't see the crossing?

It's possible that that caution may have been unrelated to the fog, but owing to a fault.

 

[brompton rail]

Surely then its an "operating incident" that has caused the problem and not fog.

2C15 Bridlington to Doncaster is shown as standing at Brough for around an hour and a half this morning, finally getting to Doncaster at 10.32, about 100 mins late. This would block services westbound from Hull. The VTEC Hull train ran to time a little earlier.

No fog in Doncaster now or earlier, though forecast and weather reports said it was foggy. Brough is alongside the Humber.

Northern's website still insists the westbound line is blocked, despite trains running since 09.25 (when 2C15 set off to Doncaster). Some, shortly after ran late, but soon services are shown to be running to time. Not very helpful, Northern.

 

[class 9]

If there is any semaphore signalling then fog-men may be required. In dense fog, the light of a semaphore on a gantry may become almost invisible. Disorientation can also occur.

You don't get 'fog men' anymore, the line to Hull has AWS & TPWS fitted.
I'm surprised no one has replied to the Northern twitter and put them right, services are NOT suspended due to fog!
It's a real own goal, makes the railway a laughing stock, I won't be surprised if a tabloid picks this up and runs a 'wrong type of fog' story.

 

[dk1]

That's what you get when non-operating staff get jobs on the Twitter feed. I cringe at some of the explanations given. Some seem to not even understand the basics of running a railway let alone signalling. Talk about making the network even more of a laughing stock :roll:

 

[talldave]

That's what you get when non-operating staff get jobs on the Twitter feed. I cringe at some of the explanations given. Some seem to not even understand the basics of running a railway let alone signalling. Talk about making the network even more of a laughing stock :roll:

In my experience, that's a prerequisite for getting a job in GTR's Customer Services department, so I imagine it's the same at other TOCs too.

 

[infobleep]

If there is any semaphore signalling then fog-men may be required. In dense fog, the light of a semaphore on a gantry may become almost invisible. Disorientation can also occur.

Are fog man still used by the railways or would they more likely cancel the services?

I have the Southern Railway server weather regulations booklet from 1947. Fascinating reading if you like reading about how the railways operated all those years ago during severe weather.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You don't get 'fog men' anymore, the line to Hull has AWS & TPWS fitted.
I'm surprised no one has replied to the Northern twitter and put them right, services are NOT suspended due to fog!
It's a real own goal, makes the railway a laughing stock, I won't be surprised if a tabloid picks this up and runs a 'wrong type of fog' story.

Thanks for explaining that.

 

[Deepgreen]

In my experience, that's a prerequisite for getting a job in GTR's Customer Services department, so I imagine it's the same at other TOCs too.

Exactly so! The PR function on the railway has gone to the dogs, with bland 'stock' responses being sent out to every complaint and only a vaguely relevant further response if they are pressed. Even the 'stock' answers from GTR are very often illiterate, so it's impossible to know what qualifies someone to work there - certainly not railway knowledge or communication skills!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Are fog man still used by the railways or would they more likely cancel the services?

I have the Southern Railway server weather regulations booklet from 1947. Fascinating reading if you like reading about how the railways operated all those years ago during server weather.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thanks for explaining that.

Do you mean 'severe'?

 

[LowLevel]

2 SPADs in the fog, one of which required an assisting train as there was no other driver available - existing driver in no fit state to be doing anything so the guard had to lay protection.

 

[Deepgreen]

2 SPADs in the fog, one of which required an assisting train as there was no other driver available - existing driver in no fit state to be doing anything so the guard had to lay protection.

Do you mean he/she was in shock? How bad was the SPAD?

 

[LowLevel]

Do you mean he/she was in shock? How bad was the SPAD?

Don't know - they weren't fit enough to drive or provide protection for their train is the implication so the guard had to take over as no assistance was available by road, so the guard evidently had to declare the train failed with no driver and have it rescued by another one. Isn't relying on staff from miles away in bad weather great

 

[daikilo]

Do you mean he/she was in shock? How bad was the SPAD?

A SPAD is a SPAD. Signals should never be passed at danger without authorisation. And if the fog is too thick to be sure of the signal aspect on approach then prepare to stop. If it is so thick you can't even recognise lineside features then stop anyway.

 

[68000]

Don't know - they weren't fit enough to drive or provide protection for their train is the implication so the guard had to take over as no assistance was available by road, so the guard evidently had to declare the train failed with no driver and have it rescued by another one. Isn't relying on staff from miles away in bad weather great

Lay protection? If the SPAD was that severe, a GSM-R emergency call should have been sent out

 

[najaB]

And if the fog is too thick to be sure of the signal aspect on approach then prepare to stop. If it is so thick you can't even recognise lineside features then stop anyway.

That's easy to say but the density of fog banks can be quite variable - visibility can drop off very quickly.