Flying Scotsman should be transferred from LNER to Lumo

[miklcct]

The 05:40 Edinburgh to Kings Cross "Flying Scotsman" service is the only LNER service between Edinburgh and London which skips York, and runs non-stop from Newcastle to Kings Cross. It is also the first service of the day from Edinburgh to Kings Cross.

Given that Lumo now runs the other first and last trains between Kings Cross and Edinburgh in both directions, and with a number of non-stop runs between Kings Cross and Newcastle, I think that this LNER "Flying Scotsman" service should be transferred to Lumo as well, by moving its 06:23 service forward, such that Lumo becomes the super-fast operator for all super-fast trains between London and Edinburgh, and all 4 first and last trains in both directions between London and Edinburgh.

In exchange, LNER should run another train between the 05:48 and 06:26, which calls at the regular pattern including York, to replace the capacity of the 06:23 Lumo train, which is moved to 05:40 to takeover the "Flying Scotsman" service.

 

[MrJeeves]

Given that Avanti generally have additional capacity on their Scottish services, I'd propose we move the Flying Scotsman to the 0730 Avanti EUS - GLC.

It's fast enough.

 

[Wolfie]

The 05:40 Edinburgh to Kings Cross "Flying Scotsman" service is the only LNER service between Edinburgh and London which skips York, and runs non-stop from Newcastle to Kings Cross. It is also the first service of the day from Edinburgh to Kings Cross.

Given that Lumo now runs the other first and last trains between Kings Cross and Edinburgh in both directions, and with a number of non-stop runs between Kings Cross and Newcastle, I think that this LNER "Flying Scotsman" service should be transferred to Lumo as well, by moving its 06:23 service forward, such that Lumo becomes the super-fast operator for all super-fast trains between London and Edinburgh, and all 4 first and last trains in both directions between London and Edinburgh.

In exchange, LNER should run another train between the 05:48 and 06:26, which calls at the regular pattern including York, to replace the capacity of the 06:23 Lumo train, which is moved to 05:40 to takeover the "Flying Scotsman" service.

Given that LNER is a state operator and Lumo an OA operator this proposal, other than spurious and superficial "neatness", has no obvious merits whatsoever. Indeed, given precedent of issues for WSMR, it may not even be legal under the current legislation.

 

[Topological]

I would also point out that the Flying Scotsman name suggests first class travel etc, not Lumo.

By all means have an earlier non-stop Lumo train, but the name (and schedule) can stay with LNER.

 

[SynthD]

Would it move to the west coast line if that provided a faster service on hs2? Or does it have a home it belongs at, like the main user of Kings Cross?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Named trains have no place in todays railway when its standard stock and offering nothing different than any other service on the route.

 

[Bartsimho]

Named trains have no place in todays railway when its standard stock and offering nothing different than any other service on the route.

Named trains do have a place on the railway as they are still a key marketing tool to drive patronage of the railway. Being able to use a name to advertise a service rather than full technical details is more recognisable to the general public especially something as historic and prestigious as "Flying Scotsman"

I'd say all trains should be fitted on the side of the cab with a place to put a nameplate for those forming the named service to further increase the marketing appeal

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Named trains do have a place on the railway as they are still a key marketing tool to drive patronage of the railway. Being able to use a name to advertise a service rather than full technical details is more recognisable to the general public especially something as historic and prestigious as "Flying Scotsman"

I'd say all trains should be fitted on the side of the cab with a place to put a nameplate for those forming the named service to further increase the marketing appeal

The people you want to influence won't be travelling at 0540 in the morning. Run it mid morning and with a 4hr timing and announce it as such at KX,NCL and EDB and maybe it could command a premium fare. What they do is gaslighting.

 

[Bartsimho]

The people you want to influence won't be travelling at 0540 in the morning. Run it mid morning and with a 4hr timing and announce it as such at KX,NCL and EDB and maybe it could command a premium fare. What they do need is gaslighting.

Of course. Having named trains at ungodly hours is really not what we should be striving for. I guess though the 0540 reaches Kings Cross at 0940 so it's not bad there and fulfils the role of arriving business traffic train.

I wonder what the time with one more stop could be and if it could be gained back over it's schedule to make it more useful for people

 

[Clarence Yard]

I hate this early morning working - it’s a distortion of a classic service. The Flying Scotsman, for me, is the 10 o’clock down from KX and the equivalent up working.

In my time at KX the ASM himself used to see it off.

Lumo haven’t the stock to take it on nor would they provide first class. Someone with a sense of history should get the 10 o’clock back to what it is supposed to be - the best (if not the fastest) train of the day.

 

[eldomtom2]

Named trains have no place in todays railway when its standard stock and offering nothing different than any other service on the route.

Named trains do have a place on the railway as they are still a key marketing tool to drive patronage of the railway. Being able to use a name to advertise a service rather than full technical details is more recognisable to the general public especially something as historic and prestigious as "Flying Scotsman"

I'd say all trains should be fitted on the side of the cab with a place to put a nameplate for those forming the named service to further increase the marketing appeal

I've always felt the UK should imitate Japan and name all express trains, adding numbers where there are multiple trains with the same service pattern. For example, the London-Edinburgh LNER services that only stop at York/Darlington/Newcastle/Berwick could all be branded as "Flying Scotsman"; 1E01 would become Flying Scotsman #1, 1S05 would become Flying Scotsman #2, 1E05 would become Flying Scotsman #3, and so on.

 

[miklcct]

The people you want to influence won't be travelling at 0540 in the morning. Run it mid morning and with a 4hr timing and announce it as such at KX,NCL and EDB and maybe it could command a premium fare. What they do is gaslighting.

Why does Lumo need 4 hours and 23 minutes for their trains with 2 intermediate stops? One extra stop shouldn't take 23 minutes extra.

Is it possible for Lumo to beat the 4 hour target with the current infrastructure?

 

[dk1]

Named trains have no place in todays railway when its standard stock and offering nothing different than any other service on the route.

Been like that for years & years. Just how it is.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jul 2024 ==

LNER will never cooperate or exchange paths with an open access operator. Cannot believe anyone would imagine they would.

I’m sure the first class LNER punters would be mighty impressed with the Lumo offering on accommodation, food & drink

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I've always felt the UK should imitate Japan and name all express trains, adding numbers where there are multiple trains with the same service pattern. For example, the London-Edinburgh LNER services that only stop at York/Darlington/Newcastle/Berwick could all be branded as "Flying Scotsman"; 1E01 would become Flying Scotsman #1, 1S05 would become Flying Scotsman #2, 1E05 would become Flying Scotsman #3, and so on.

That would be a LOT of names to come up with.
Sure there's a number of historical names but the number of 1 a day (or 1 a week) services would be a massive pain.

 

[The exile]

Why does Lumo need 4 hours and 23 minutes for their trains with 2 intermediate stops? One extra stop shouldn't take 23 minutes extra.

Is it possible for Lumo to beat the 4 hour target with the current infrastructure?

Probably - at the cost of removing several other train paths and thus disadvantaging far more people than it benefits. Fairly certain that if they could do it within the existing pattern they would. As for “transferring” anything - Lumo is an open-access operator so nothing is going to be transferred to them - at least not without them taking on all the responsibilities/ requirements of franchised services.

 

[LowLevel]

I hate this early morning working - it’s a distortion of a classic service. The Flying Scotsman, for me, is the 10 o’clock down from KX and the equivalent up working.

In my time at KX the ASM himself used to see it off.

Lumo haven’t the stock to take it on nor would they provide first class. Someone with a sense of history should get the 10 o’clock back to what it is supposed to be - the best (if not the fastest) train of the day.

I always liked the "old railway" approach to dealing with important trains.

In my first job dispatching there were 2 busy up peak time HSTs leaving from adjacent platforms looked after by the same chargeman and assistant 5 minutes apart - quite often they were in the platform at the same time.

The route manager, area station manager and station supervisor all used to come out of their offices to help slam the doors on the first train, and then whilst the platform staff saw the train away safely they'd go and start getting the doors shut on the next train so they only had to walk down it quickly and give the tip.

You could turn around 2 x full 8 coach HSTs in less than a minute each on a good day and the business passengers used to like seeing these managers out with their name badges on helping too.

The post COVID world seems quite sterile by comparison.

All that was nothing of course compared to the old days of roses in lapels for "the Cutler"!

 

[stevieinselby]

Why does Lumo need 4 hours and 23 minutes for their trains with 2 intermediate stops? One extra stop shouldn't take 23 minutes extra.

Is it possible for Lumo to beat the 4 hour target with the current infrastructure?

The problem is pathing. Many of the stations that Lumo misses out don't have passing loops, so they can't "jump" an LNER/TPX/XC/SR train that is stopping there. If you built the timetable around giving Lumo the perfect path then sure, they could do the journey in under 4 hours, but that would be catastrophically restrictive on the rest of the network and would lead to a far worse service for the 99% of trains and passengers on the East Coast who are not using Lumo, with trains needing to miss out stations and/or see significantly extended journey times and/or run at a reduced frequency in order to avoid getting in the way of that perfect path.

 

[skyhigh]

Why does Lumo need 4 hours and 23 minutes for their trains with 2 intermediate stops? One extra stop shouldn't take 23 minutes extra.

Is it possible for Lumo to beat the 4 hour target with the current infrastructure?

Does this Flying Scotsman suggestion basically boil down to "I want to travel on a fast train but pay Lumo prices so the train I want to travel on should be run by Lumo?"

I can't see much other logic to it.

 

[CBlue]

Does this Flying Scotsman suggestion basically boil down to "I want to travel on a fast train but pay Lumo prices so the train I want to travel on should be run by Lumo?"

I can't see much other logic to it.

It's really rather odd, given that the OP's previous posts have essentially been "every train service stops at every station on route regardless of destination or distance".

Then again OP does appear to have the unfortunate expectation that every service he uses should be rearranged for his use above others.

 

[miklcct]

Does this Flying Scotsman suggestion basically boil down to "I want to travel on a fast train but pay Lumo prices so the train I want to travel on should be run by Lumo?"

I can't see much other logic to it.

To provide consistency of the service offering between the two companies.

Lumo specialises in running fast trains, early trains and late trains, and trains which compete with flights. The Flying Scotsman perfectly fits these criteria. It compete with flights in the morning peak.

LNER should focus in serving the intermediate markets where flying isn't an option, such as York.

 

[Elecman]

I’m my Area Management days at Preston we Retail OnCall managers were expected to see the Lancashire Pullman train off Preston every day.

 

[Helvellyn]

LNER could name most, if not all, of it's trains with the Dine First Class offering (that is, full LNER Breakfast in the morning and Chef prepared options for lunch/dinner).

If they were reluctant to bring back the Tees-Tyne or Yorkshire Pullman substitute Executive for Pullman.

 

[skyhigh]

To provide consistency of the service offering between the two companies.

Do you understand the difference between LNER and Lumo? What the fact Lumo is open access means?

 

[Starmill]

To provide consistency of the service offering between the two companies.

Lumo specialises in running fast trains, early trains and late trains, and trains which compete with flights. The Flying Scotsman perfectly fits these criteria. It compete with flights in the morning peak.

LNER should focus in serving the intermediate markets where flying isn't an option, such as York.

Why? So Lumo generates more cash for First Group and LNER generates less for the state?

 

[HSTEd]

Named trains have no place in todays railway when its standard stock and offering nothing different than any other service on the route.

Named trains are extensively used in other parts of the world, even when formed of standard stock.

I would argue that names for stopping patterns (or more broadly, service groupings), as commonly used in Japan, makes for a useful shortand.

 

[yorkie]

To provide consistency of the service offering between the two companies.

Lumo specialises in running fast trains, early trains and late trains, and trains which compete with flights. The Flying Scotsman perfectly fits these criteria. It compete with flights in the morning peak.

Your logic is all wrong. Lumo is a budget operator; LNER is a full service operator. Swapping these paths would have a negative effect on both operators; it makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Segedunum]

As someone who commutes on this service semi-regularly, you'll often see First Class with more passengers than Standard. They certainly wouldn't follow along onto a Lumo equivalent

In Standard, just about everyone who sits near me will end up sat at a full-sized table, pull their laptop out and start working with various bits and pieces on the table. Good luck doing that with 2x tables per carriage.

 

[dk1]

As someone who commutes on this service semi-regularly, you'll often see First Class with more passengers than Standard. They certainly wouldn't follow along onto a Lumo equivalent

In Standard, just about everyone who sits near me will end up sat at a full-sized table, pull their laptop out and start working with various bits and pieces on the table. Good luck doing that with 2x tables per carriage.

I used to follow all the passenger counts in the late 90s on the 06:00 up Scottish Pullman. Loadings midweek where usually around 90-110 in 1st class/70-80 in standard south of York.

 

[miklcct]

Your logic is all wrong. Lumo is a budget operator; LNER is a full service operator. Swapping these paths would have a negative effect on both operators; it makes absolutely no sense.

Lumo is a budget operator. That's the reason I want the path to be swapped.

The fact that this early morning train is one of the prime "commuter" train means that it has the greatest potential to take passengers off the air. By running a cheap, no-frills service at the prime time catering for business day trippers, passenger volumes can be maximised.

The opposite working at the same time (05:48 from Kings Cross to Edinburgh) is a Lumo train as well - a prime "commuter" train for day trippers from London to Edinburgh, and the last train back from Edinburgh to London (19:58 from Edinburgh) is also a Lumo train.

Running an expensive service at the prime time isn't the best way to take people off the air.

 

[skyhigh]

Lumo is a budget operator. That's the reason I want the path to be swapped.

So nothing to do with tidying up, it's simply that you want to pay Lumo prices for an LNER train?

Again, do you have any concept of what Lumo being open access actually means?