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Flooding at Farringdon

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ChiefPlanner

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Cmnnn - there is a lot of grief on TLK - but the guys and gals kept the trains running today. (love the shots of the unfortunate issues on the Thames) - even the Metropolitan Railway in the early 1900's had issues when the River Fleet threw a wobbly under the Gridiron.....
 
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21C101

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Great announcements on 1W11 this morning too, our (lady) driver started the announcement when West Hampstead Panel 2 did a GSM-r general call, so she had to wait a bit :)

Train home was rammed though, left people behind at STP. General chat on the train from punters was understanding though, many had seen the pictures.

Compounded this evening by a Southbound train failing on approach to Farringdon, ie before it got there. Damn 387s and their comfy seats.

After seeing the photo decided to get a Southern train up from Sussex to Victoria then tube across to St P High Level then the 5PM meridian to Bedford before boomeranging back.

Now Meridians DO have comfy seats. And tea and coffee.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Proceed on sight aspects. Double white flashing 'cats eyes' that permit a driver to pass a signal at danger. Avoids the need to stop and caution services.

Used throughout the core (and ELL) and in the core has saved several thousand PPM failures since 2011.

or in laymans terms - flashing shunt signals....
 

kentman

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Proceed on sight aspects. Double white flashing 'cats eyes' that permit a driver to pass a signal at danger. Avoids the need to stop and caution services.

Used throughout the core (and ELL) and in the core has saved several thousand PPM failures since 2011.

Thanks I've been puzzled as to what that subsidiary, on the exit signal of the Overground platform at New Cross, was for for a while now.

http://www.rgsonline.co.uk/Rule_Boo...ight Authority (PoSA)/GERT8000-PoSA Iss 2.pdf
 

DelayRepay

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Cmnnn - there is a lot of grief on TLK - but the guys and gals kept the trains running today. (love the shots of the unfortunate issues on the Thames) - even the Metropolitan Railway in the early 1900's had issues when the River Fleet threw a wobbly under the Gridiron.....

Yes, credit to them. Before Christmas when we had disruption in the core, I thought they were quite poor at dealing with it. This time, it seemed like there was lots of information (online at least, I didn't go to the station), they kept a service running (all be it much reduced) and arranged ticket acceptance and buses to try to reduce overcrowding. And at Welwyn Garden City there were five staff in orange jackets stationed in the shopping centre waiting to direct the hoards of passengers (just me!) to the replacement buses.
 

acmw421

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Bald Rick said:
Compounded this evening by a Southbound train failing on approach to Farringdon, ie before it got there. Damn 387s and their comfy seats.

I was waiting to get that train (1655 ex Farringdon) and watched it come in. It made it half way down the platform before giving up the ghost (my fourth cancelled 387 in a fortnight, but definitely the most dramatic). I did wonder if the thin seats meant there was less material to absorb any incoming water...! :p had to pity the poor TL announcer at Farringdon who couldn't apologise enough.
 

Taunton

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even the Metropolitan Railway in the early 1900's had issues when the River Fleet threw a wobbly under the Gridiron.....
There have been multiple other occasions when there has been flooding down there; there was a photo in a magazine many years ago, alongside a report of flooding then, which showed one of the last duties for the old Metropolitan Railway 4-4-0 now in the LT museum, which was retained in the works loco fleet, was down there powering a steam pump to disperse floodwater. I presume it must be below drainage level into the adjacent culverted River Fleet.
 

DaveNewcastle

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. . . . I presume it must be below drainage level into the adjacent culverted River Fleet.
Yes, the Fleet is higher than the lowest parts of the Thameslink tunnel where the railway dips under the Metropolitan & Circle lines near Ray Street (which is where where the river flows in from the north west under the bridge on Roseberry Avenue) before it rises under the Betsey Trotwood pub to emerge at Farringdon Station.
I understood that the river burst its containment more than once in the 19th c. It was, of course, as much a sewer carrying the effluent of a great city as it was a river flowing from a little pond in Hampstead.
 
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themeone

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I was also at Farringdon around 1730 last night. The station announcements were very frequent and also very apologetic, so it seemed well handled. I didn't hear any mention of tickets being accepted on the tube southbound, though I think they said they were being accepted northbound - there seemed to be a gap of about 45 minutes until the next northbound stopping service was expected.

In the end my journey back to Croydon was only delayed by about 15 minutes.
 

Taunton

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Proceed on sight aspects. Double white flashing 'cats eyes' that permit a driver to pass a signal at danger. Avoids the need to stop and caution services.

Used throughout the core (and ELL) and in the core has saved several thousand PPM failures since 2011.
Indeed an innovation.

It does sound, though, exactly like the "Call On" that was installed on the Euston-Watford DC Line in the 1930s, apart from the detail that this was a single yellow subsidiary light rather than double flashing white. But in operational procedure, seems pretty much the same. Of course, this was done away with in the 1970s, for a reason which I think nobody knows.

What goes around, comes around.

By extraordinary coincidence this piece of stone-age technology even had special signal aspects for "Flood", as this line had an equal troublespot at Stonebridge Park. I've even found a picture of one on the web here. Perhaps in a generation or two this will make a comeback at Farringdon.


http://www.roscalen.com/signals/London/CWJ.htm#StonebridgePark
 
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21C101

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Indeed an innovation.

It does sound, though, exactly like the "Call On" that was installed on the Euston-Watford DC Line in the 1930s, apart from the detail that this was a single yellow subsidiary light rather than double flashing white. But in operational procedure, seems pretty much the same. Of course, this was done away with in the 1970s, for a reason which I think nobody knows.

What goes around, comes around.

By extraordinary coincidence this piece of stone-age technology even had special signal aspects for "Flood", as this line had an equal troublespot at Stonebridge Park. I've even found a picture of one on the web here. Perhaps in a generation or two this will make a comeback at Farringdon.


http://www.roscalen.com/signals/London/CWJ.htm#StonebridgePark

On the original Brighton Line colour light signalling in 1933, the four aspect signals had a fifth aspect. When illuminated with an A, it meant that the signal was operating automatically and could, after one minute, be passed at Red then the train driven on sight to next signal. Its in the book linked to below (of which I've got an original copy).

All is explained on page 8&9 of the book. As you say what goes around comes around.


http://www.ekeving.se/ext/uk/BrightonLine_1933/WBSS.pdf
 

Busaholic

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Just a heads-up that Farringdon is spelt wrong in the title of this thread, should be corrected as this topic isn't referring to the town in Oxfordshire, which is currently without a railway station. Thank you.

As is Faringdon Park in Preston.
 

Taunton

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What's the maximum flood level before services get suspended on any line whether AC, DC or diesel?
On the old Taunton-Yeovil line, which closed without being dieselised about 1964, flooding at Langport West station from the River Parrett was a periodic winter event. Passenger trains used to make it through with water almost up to the floorline of the passenger vehicles/platform level in the station, there are photos of this happening in books about the line, there was a water depth gauge on the river bridge, and ducks would come up alongside the platform. On steam locos the ashpan under the fire would be doused and maybe some of the fire itself, the fireman would have raked as much of the fire as possible to the high point of the grate, more than once the fire was lost completely but they had built up sufficient steam reserve to get on to either Taunton or Yeovil shed without further firing. Once clear of the water the driver would nip round and lubricate the wheel bearings etc, then at the end the foreman fitter at the shed was waiting for them and would give it a good check over, and the fireraiser would relight the fire.

Then back. They never cancelled a train unless it was just too deep. TOCs, please copy.

https://sites.google.com/site/langportheritage/railway-s-1
 
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Murph

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Then back. They never cancelled a train unless it was just too deep. TOCs, please copy.

Kinda difficult to copy that with underfloor electrical equipment and underfloor diesel engines. Diesel hydraulic locos (of which there are none in normal main line service, only preservation or private use) can wade through pretty much up to their solebars, but most of the rest of modern stock has issues if the water is far above the rails. Anything with electric power bogies has to be careful, no matter how high up everything else is.
 

hassaanhc

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http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/flooding-at-farringdon-causes-rail-disruption-9997696.html

Has a good picture of the flooding. What's the maximum flood level before services get suspended on any line whether AC, DC or diesel?

Current rules are:
GE/RT8000/M3 said:
Up to the bottom of the rail head: Normal working
Up to the top of the rail head: Maximum speed 5 mph
Above the top of the rail head: Movements only permitted by instructions from Operations Control
At any depth: If flood water is moving and likely to dislodge the ballast or has dislodged ballast, stop trains and wait for further instructions from Operations Control.
More detailed info on reporting procedures and a good diagram on pages 9/10 here
 
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21C101

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On the old Taunton-Yeovil line, which closed without being dieselised about 1964, flooding at Langport West station from the River Parrett was a periodic winter event. Passenger trains used to make it through with water almost up to the floorline of the passenger vehicles/platform level in the station, there are photos of this happening in books about the line, there was a water depth gauge on the river bridge, and ducks would come up alongside the platform. On steam locos the ashpan under the fire would be doused and maybe some of the fire itself, the fireman would have raked as much of the fire as possible to the high point of the grate, more than once the fire was lost completely but they had built up sufficient steam reserve to get on to either Taunton or Yeovil shed without further firing. Once clear of the water the driver would nip round and lubricate the wheel bearings etc, then at the end the foreman fitter at the shed was waiting for them and would give it a good check over, and the fireraiser would relight the fire.

Then back. They never cancelled a train unless it was just too deep. TOCs, please copy.

https://sites.google.com/site/langportheritage/railway-s-1

I never really understood why Western Region gave up on that line so soon. As it ran between Somersets two principal towns it ought to have done quite well. If they had extended it to Yeovil Junction or allowed Waterloo -Yeovil junction trains to be extended to Taunton along it, it would probably still be with us, but then anti-Southern bigotry meant that would never be tried.
 

387star

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No it would have been a steam bath. I know of several locations where the juice rail goes under water during heavy rainfall and all it does if NR doesn't shut the power off is boils the water & subsequently loads of steam!

Think I will stick to my bath at home ;)
 

Class377/5

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Kinda difficult to copy that with underfloor electrical equipment and underfloor diesel engines. Diesel hydraulic locos (of which there are none in normal main line service, only preservation or private use) can wade through pretty much up to their solebars, but most of the rest of modern stock has issues if the water is far above the rails. Anything with electric power bogies has to be careful, no matter how high up everything else is.

But people don't cars about the facts when the rose tinted specs are on.
 

jopsuk

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Quite- look at the 156 that ended up floor level in water- now facing £400k of "repairs"
 

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_70754572_duckfire.jpg

We all know that 442s don't run through the Core...
 

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Jonny

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On the old Taunton-Yeovil line, which closed without being dieselised about 1964, flooding at Langport West station from the River Parrett was a periodic winter event. Passenger trains used to make it through with water almost up to the floorline of the passenger vehicles/platform level in the station, there are photos of this happening in books about the line, there was a water depth gauge on the river bridge, and ducks would come up alongside the platform. On steam locos the ashpan under the fire would be doused and maybe some of the fire itself, the fireman would have raked as much of the fire as possible to the high point of the grate, more than once the fire was lost completely but they had built up sufficient steam reserve to get on to either Taunton or Yeovil shed without further firing. Once clear of the water the driver would nip round and lubricate the wheel bearings etc, then at the end the foreman fitter at the shed was waiting for them and would give it a good check over, and the fireraiser would relight the fire.

Then back. They never cancelled a train unless it was just too deep. TOCs, please copy.

The trouble is that underfloor engines and/or electrical gear on multiple units, which make up basically all passenger trains nowadays are equivalent to the fire on a steam train, but unfortunately they are much lower. So, if the flood water reaches them, then it pretty much is game, set and match to the flood (and a stuck train). This would occur a lot sooner than the water reaching the edge of the platform, and that's assuming that the track is intact which is another matter altogether.
 
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ChiefPlanner

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What sort of saved the day at F/don was slab track (and the POSA signals) - no danger of loose ballast being washed away. Delays to 10-15 today with a reduced service. Lots of passengers around on this lovely Winter day.

One consideration of traversing flood water - never mind the electrical gubbins - is not getting water into the roller bearing wheel sets. Back in the day - one Easter - flash floods blocked both the Northampton loop and the Weedon line - and urgent action was taken to move stabled stock away from the (appropriately named) Riverside Sidings. onto higher ground. I wont say how we did it - but it was not "under EMU power" ...
 

Abpj17

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^^ cursed franchise...

anyways, on way into town yesterday morning, helpful driver was kind enough to let us off, unscheduled, at kentish town and the northern line *gasp* wasn't too bad (this was about 10.15)

way home, as sulked on the thameslink thread..., left office at midnight decided might as well pick up a train a st p rather than blackfrairs. After a long way - but entertaining with many drunken people about - train home only to be kicked off a stop early due to power problems at Leagrave. Another two delay repay claims in a week for the second time in four months.

I've never done the GN/rail replacement option - I tend to stay at work and hope it gets better. I have no faith that buses will be there - if you do have faith/experience, is it really worth it and relatively hassle free? (other problem of course is that I need Leagrave not Luton itself)
 
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jon0844

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FCC managed to get buses out quite quick at times, and hopefully Govia can too. Of course at some times of the day, or depending on what is affected, it might not be so easy.

I definitely agree that once there is a sniff of problems, get over to the other line and travel and either hope for buses or just get a regular bus, or even taxi, if you just want to get home.

Or if you prefer, just find a nearby pub/restaurant in town and sit it out!
 
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Abpj17

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Yeah; I would need to catch at least two buses to get home from Hitchin and none of them run late evening when I would be likely to be travelling.

Taxi is over £20 from hitchin, possibly £30 if very late (and was £10 from Luton to home yesterday at 2am...)
 

DelayRepay

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I've never done the GN/rail replacement option - I tend to stay at work and hope it gets better. I have no faith that buses will be there - if you do have faith/experience, is it really worth it and relatively hassle free? (other problem of course is that I need Leagrave not Luton itself)

I've done it twice since GoVia took over. The first time they were running coaches from Hatfield to St Albans but there was about a 30 minute wait for a coach (outside in the rain) because there were not enough coaches to cope with the number of passengers.

The second time (Friday) they were running from WGC and there were four coaches for one passenger! :lol:

My observation is that on Friday the bus supervisor was wearing a First jacket. I'm not sure if they're still using First Rail Support for their buses or if he was just wearing an old jacket.

They do also normally arrange for Uno to accept tickets between Hatfield and St Albans which provides a bit of extra capacity too.

The frustrating thing for me is the buses more or less go past my house in the way back into St Albans - but I have to go to the station to pick my car up.

I don't see it as too much of a risk as if the worse came to the worse I could get a taxi, and there would be other passengers to share with to keep the cost down.

I'm not sure how reliable the buses are on the link between Hitchin/Luton/Leagreave. I know passengers for Harpenden get put in a separate queue at Hatfield and seem to be waiting longer.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
On BBC Three Counties Radio they have just warned of delays of up to an hour on Thameslink this morning due to flooding in London.

Hope it's better by tomorrow...
 
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