Flatmate PFd/fined for sitting in declassified First Class

[IceAgeComing]

I'll try to answer some of the questions asked over the last day. He wasn't given anything; the guy took his name and address only which suggests that he was thinking prosecution. He was travelling with an Oyster travelcard but if the First Class was declassified that shouldn't matter. He also left at around 11:30 so I doubt that he was on the awkward one train a day that apparently has First Class. I emailed Southeastern with a general enquiry on this (not mentioning my friends possible issue) and got a reply saying that first class is declassified on the route (if they'd have said something different then that would have been concerning considering what is all over their website) which strikes me as being incredibly useful if they do try to go after him: after all their advice is that its perfectly OK to sit in "first class" on those trains.

The timetable doesn't specify "standard class only"; it only specifies the one First Class service a day on the weekend (which strikes me as being a little unfair and a perfect way of trapping someone who's been told that First Class is declassified without that one exception being mentioned) so that to me doesn't imply that the First Class seats are somehow out of order if they have to run a train with first class on our route.

This morning they ran a first class train again and I took one of those seats: because lots of people don't know then I'm going to take advantage of it for myself to get a seat plus it removes a body from the busy bit of the train and that makes everyone else more comfortable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I *suspect*, then, that nothing will come of it. He should keep that e-mail for reference in case it does.

 

[island]

The risk here is that Byelaw 19 says an offence is committed when you remain in an area on a train which a notice states is reserved for someone else, or which is reserved for holders of tickets of a different class of accomodation to the ticket held – which indeed happened. The Byelaw has nothing to say about declassification or timetables or custom and practice. Only notices. I would like to think that any prosecution in circumstances such as these would be dismissed as an abuse of process, but magistrates are a funny lot.

Nevertheless, Southeastern are amongst the more sensible of TOCs and assuming the service in question ran solely within zones 1-6 will likely cancel the matter once the point is raised.

 

[Alteran Ancient]

If the penalty was issued by roaming inspectors who jumped on that particular train and issued it for sitting in 1st with a Standard ticket, then it obviously depends on whether that service is listed as having First Class in the timetable. Abbey Wood does not have a single service booked for First Class - whether it's a Southeastern service that has a 465/9 Networker, or a Thameslink 700. It would be much easier to confirm this if OP knows what particular service it was that their housemate used, but we can almost certainly say that this penalty was issued in error and should be written-off.

It's situations like these where the Revenue protection staff get a bad rep.

 

[westcoaster]

Might the revenue staff member, seen the oyster and automatically forgotten about declassification. As you can't have a oyster first class fare.

 

[Daz28]

As the upper bound of the penalty fare is twice the price of a single to the next station, how can they calculate the penalty fare when no first class fare exists?

 

[Bletchleyite]

As the upper bound of the penalty fare is twice the price of a single to the next station, how can they calculate the penalty fare when no first class fare exists?

Just £20, one assumes.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Might the revenue staff member, seen the oyster and automatically forgotten about declassification. As you can't have a oyster first class fare.

Can't you have an Oyster first class Travelcard?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can't you have an Oyster first class Travelcard?

There is no such thing as a First Class Travelcard in any form (other than outboundary, which is a bit of an outlier as it technically shouldn't allow use of 1st inside the zones as the Travelcard product doesn't work that way, though de-facto it does because it is marked as a First Class ticket). If you want to travel First Class wholly within the Zones you need a point to point ticket.

Outboundary Travelcards of course cannot presently be issued on Oyster.

 

[island]

There is no such thing as a First Class Travelcard in any form (other than outboundary, which is a bit of an outlier as it technically shouldn't allow use of 1st inside the zones as the Travelcard product doesn't work that way, though de-facto it does because it is marked as a First Class ticket). If you want to travel First Class wholly within the Zones you need a point to point ticket.

That’s incorrect. First class inboundary Travelcard seasons can be purchased.

 

[[.n]]

There is no such thing as a First Class Travelcard in any form (other than outboundary, which is a bit of an outlier as it technically shouldn't allow use of 1st inside the zones as the Travelcard product doesn't work that way, though de-facto it does because it is marked as a First Class ticket). If you want to travel First Class wholly within the Zones you need a point to point ticket.

Outboundary Travelcards of course cannot presently be issued on Oyster.

Strange, I often buy a Z1-2 1st class (paper) Travelcard

 

[matt_world2004]

If the OPs flatmate hears nothing from this, he should demand after 6 months that the TOC deletes their personal data, as it is information that the TOC had no right to anyway.

 

[talltim]

At a tangent, if the TOC argues that access to 1st class seating is not available without a 1st ticket, that means that those seat are basically redundant for those services that don't have 1st tickets to buy. Am I right in thinking that some franchise agreements specify number of seat? Would the TOC then be in breach of franchise if they swap sets regularly but don't declassify?

 

[matt_world2004]

Strange, I often buy a Z1-2 1st class (paper) Travelcard

Out of curiosity why? Given the paucity of first class services in zone 1-2.

 

[IceAgeComing]

To provide a brief if rather boring update: we haven't heard anything yet. I don't know the time that this process takes but I'm optimistic that someone noticed this and stopped it. Hopefully they let the chap who did the thing know where he went wrong so they don't do it in the future: I don't think that it was malicious and we all make mistakes: and with how complicated these things can be its not surprising that a person could make a mistake and education is the best way of making things better for everyone. I reckon he must have just seen a guy with an oyster in first class and acting on instinct which was wrong in this case.

I still haven't seen a revenue guy myself on this route (had an announcement that they were doing a revenue check just as we were pulling into Woolwich Arsenal once when I was switching to the DLR but that's it) and as someone who came from Scotrail land when 90% of trains had a guard on them its rather weird honestly - and that's not just counting commuter times when they can't check everyones tickets but also random off peak times when the train is mostly empty and most of the stations on the route are either totally open or open peak time (I've never seen the barriers at Woolwich Arsenal working, although I've only had reason to go there on weekends and evenings) so evasion is relatively easy and surely must happen? I'd always pay anyway since I'm a good guy and I was taught to do that (plus London Bridge and Abbey Wood have barriers in operation all the time, plus I like the flexibility that a travelcard gives me on evenings and weekends travelling around London) but I see a fair few people just walking past the validators when I get off at Greenwich to go to the gym and either they all have paper tickets which strikes me as unusual or they're willing to pay a penalty fair every day, which is stupid or a fair few people are just not bothering...

 

[najaB]

To provide a brief if rather boring update: we haven't heard anything yet. I don't know the time that this process takes but I'm optimistic that someone noticed this and stopped it.

That's possible, but by no means certain. If they wanted to proceed to a prosecution then it could be anything up to six months before your friend receives a summons.

 

[[.n]]

Out of curiosity why? Given the paucity of first class services in zone 1-2.

Split ticketing, my journey is more than just Z1+Z2 (oh and it gives me "free" buses in Z1-6)

And as a minor tangent, it is amusing to see the look on an RPI's face when they board with you and follow you to the 1st class section, expecting to be able to catch everyone sitting/occupying in 1st class for a PF (this is on Southern), and then you show your valid Travelcard