Fixing Preston

[Bletchleyite]

The difficulties of interchanging at Preston came up in this thread:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/idea-to-enhance-greater-manchester-to-scotland-service.211166/#post-4860403

Preston does suffer from a few deficiencies, even though it's to me quite an interesting station and not at all "bleak", to reference another thread:

• P1/2, their bridge and subway very narrow and coping badly with large passenger loads; 5/6 not much better
• Layout does not lend itself to the use of ticket barriers
• Poor, almost non-existent retail facilities

So what could be done to fix it? Would it be possible, for example, to ditch the ramp down to platforms 3 and 4 and install a smaller version of the Reading mezzanine with escalators down to each platform? Could P1/2 be moved over towards the old Res platforms widened with a new canopy?

Is it listed, which would restrict changes?

 

[S&CLER]

The difficulties of interchanging at Preston came up in this thread:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/idea-to-enhance-greater-manchester-to-scotland-service.211166/#post-4860403

Preston does suffer from a few deficiencies, even though it's to me quite an interesting station and not at all "bleak", to reference another thread:

• P1/2, their bridge and subway very narrow and coping badly with large passenger loads; 5/6 not much better
• Layout does not lend itself to the use of ticket barriers
• Poor, almost non-existent retail facilities

So what could be done to fix it? Would it be possible, for example, to ditch the ramp down to platforms 3 and 4 and install a smaller version of the Reading mezzanine with escalators down to each platform? Could P1/2 be moved over towards the old Res platforms widened with a new canopy?

Is it listed, which would restrict changes?

It was reported recently that bays 3C and 4C need to be removed to allow lengthening of 3 and 4 for HS2 trains; that would make a case for extra capacity, preferably by using one or both faces of the old parcels platform to handle all down Fylde traffic. The current 1 and 2 could then be used for up trains and those (e.g. from Ormskirk or Colne) reversing. Eight through platforms ought to be capable of handling all the likely demand. Maybe a ninth could be provided by bringing platform 7 back into regular use as well, as it looks as if it could be extended southward.

 

[JonathanH]

Is it listed, which would restrict changes?

Does listing extend to the track layout?

Ideally you would want islands with cross platform interchange. The problem seems to be that there is no room for a flyover to get Blackpool trains over to the up side and the lines aren't paired by direction.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It was reported recently that bays 3C and 4C need to be removed to allow lengthening of 3 and 4 for HS2 trains; that would make a case for extra capacity, preferably by using one or both faces of the old parcels platform to handle all down Fylde traffic. The current 1 and 2 could then be used for up trains and those (e.g. from Ormskirk or Colne) reversing. Eight through platforms ought to be capable of handling all the likely demand. Maybe a ninth could be provided by bringing platform 7 back into regular use as well, as it looks as if it could be extended southward.

Would 7 be useful for Ormskirk/Colne reversals as a substitute for 3C, as they are only 2-car DMUs and aren't likely to be longer any time soon? Pretty sure it fits 2x23m? 4C seems to be very rarely used.

 

[edwin_m]

I drew up a sketch a few years ago that would have Blackpool-bound trains going from the parcels platform and the through roads between that and the rest as freight loops. Trouble is it would probably need grade separation of Euxton to get everything across.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Strangely, in a thread entitled "Fixing Preston" the word "dynamite" hasn't yet been used.

A horrific oversight which I will now remedy.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

If you can rebuild the RES, it can be an island.

Realistically, you need to rebuild Fishergate bridge anyway; then potentially build everything on top of the Christian Road side (and the RES), so basically demolish the lot and start again.

That, if you’re a bit smart, gets you two bi-directional platforms for the Ormskirk and Blackburn stuff to terminate / go through. You could definitely get a reversing siding just north of that on the far west side.

If you keep a reasonably flexible layout at the north end, you’d be able to get (I suspect) at least 6 carriage sidings and possibly a couple more elsewhere.

If you then assume the entirety of the existing station becomes just 6 through platforms, you’re looking at a flexible two on the ‘slow’ side next to the RES, for anything like freight to be regulated and perhaps some Fast Line (south end) <> Blackpool traffic.

You can then use the remaining four on the ‘up’ side for main line traffic.

If, as I have suggested, a new building / island on the Christian Rd side is used as the ticket office etc, then you can use the Butler St side for automotive pick up / drop off, and keep the existing taxi road.

As suggested, the existing train shed needs to be kept but then you could put a nice fabrication across all tracks at the north side if the taxi road is modified, especially if the Fishergate bridge is changed.

And, of course, you can expand out the subway. The bulk of people would use the new bridge and escalators, others might use the subway if that had lifts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And, of course, you can expand out the subway. The bulk of people would use the new bridge and escalators, others might use the subway if that had lifts.

One thing I have wondered in the past is whether the main entrance should be relocated to where the silly pointless side entrance is at the moment (the one from the car park that looks like an ugly wart on the side of a quite attractive trainshed) with a proper new building there with ticket office and barriers, and then you could put a decent wide bridge with lifts/escalators across all the platforms at that point, replacing the subway? There's a useful gap in the P3/4 buildings at that point to accommodate the subway access ramp, and it's quite wide.

That would effectively replace the Fishergate "main entrance" (does any other major station have such a tiny doorway being the de-facto main entrance? [1]) which could be closed. The one where the existing ticket office is could gain a set of remotely monitored barriers and a couple of TVMs to avoid people needing to walk round, though it would probably make sense to relocate the main car drop-off from there to down by the new building in the car park so it'd only really be to serve people walking to the station from the Penwortham side of the road bridge.

[1] Actually, I suppose Liverpool Lime St does, the small entrance facing onto Skelhorne St is barely any bigger and is the busiest of the entrances, though it doesn't suffer from the narrow bridge!

 

[30907]

The priority ought to be widening platform 1 (at the expense of the freight line immediately next to it which I have never seen used) and its access stairways, plus widening the subway which might not be easy (it does have lifts, surely, though?). I've always felt 1/2 to be uncomfortably narrow and the subway stairs ditto.
The Parcels platform(s) would be the next target though I can't quite work out how to access them from the main station.

I am wondering if it would be possible to put a new footbridge across the station immediately north of the island building (rather than in the " gap" as Bletchleyite suggests). Access to 3/4 and Fishergate would come down in the centre of the slope, which I think is wide enough for this (it's wide enough for pop-up stalls...).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am wondering if it would be possible to put a new footbridge across the station immediately north of the island building (rather than in the " gap" as Bletchleyite suggests). Access to 3/4 and Fishergate would come down in the centre of the slope, which I think is wide enough for this (it's wide enough for pop-up stalls...).

That was an earlier suggestion - I reckon you could get a Reading style mezzanine in there, which could be made wide enough to have "railside" and "landside" halves, allowing the station to be gated.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Nov 2020 ==

If you can rebuild the RES, it can be an island.

It already is, provided you take down Network Rail's Portakabins and put the track back in.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Strangely, in a thread entitled "Fixing Preston" the word "dynamite" hasn't yet been used.

A horrific oversight which I will now remedy.

Now sir - that is my home town station you are talking about there when I am back in the UK.

However, I understand where you are coming from! Almost everything that could be wrong is wrong. The bar is not too bad though.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I drew up a sketch a few years ago that would have Blackpool-bound trains going from the parcels platform and the through roads between that and the rest as freight loops. Trouble is it would probably need grade separation of Euxton to get everything across.

I suspect that any rebuild/re-arrangement of Preston station would be a waste of money without also including grade separation at Euxton Jn.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Strangely, in a thread entitled "Fixing Preston" the word "dynamite" hasn't yet been used.

A horrific oversight which I will now remedy.

To be fair, as has been proven in the past, the roof is quite capable of falling down on its own without dynamite being necessary.

Thinking of which...how about a Rugby or Reading style rebuild with lower canopies? Or is it listed?

 

[JonathanH]

Or is it listed?

PRESTON RAILWAY STATION, Non Civil Parish - 1207271 | Historic England

List entry 1207271. Grade II Listed Building: Preston Railway Station. May include summary, reasons for designation and history.

historicengland.org.uk

Overview
Heritage Category:Listed Building
Grade:IIList
Entry Number:1207271
Date first listed:15-Mar-1990
Statutory Address:PRESTON RAILWAY STATION, FISHERGATE

PRESTON FISHERGATE (South side) Preston Railway Station

15/03/90

GV II

Railway station. 1880, by Cooper and Tullis of Preston, for the London and North Western and the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Companies; altered at various dates, and renovations in progress at time of survey (1989). Booking hall and offices of buff brick with sandstone dressings, granite plinths and slate roofs; train sheds of cast-iron and steel with roofs of glass and corrugated sheet. Three island platforms, the centre much wider than the others, its north end covered by a descending approach road to the entrance block (the booking hall) and its centre occupied by 3 brick ranges on the same axis, containing other offices; with a 4th platform on the east side (now the entrance front from Butler Street). The entrance block has a tripartite rectangular plan, presenting a symmetrical facade with a 5-bay centre of 2 storeys and attic flanked by single-storey 3-bay offices (the centre embraced, and the side offices protected, by the glazed gable-ends of the 2 principal train sheds); the ground floor of the centre is open-arcaded, the front arcade faced with Tuscan columns of punched granite, the 1st floor has 5 sashed windows with moulded architraves framed by a sill-band, banded corner pilasters and a prominent bracketed cornice, and above this is a mansard roof treated as an attic, with 3 pedimented dormers (the larger one in the centre containing a clock), wrought-iron cresting with scrolls and anthemions, and tall side-wall chimneys. The flanking side offices have sandstone plinths, channelled corner pilasters, and stilted-arched openings with moulded architraves linked by imposts bands (including a doorway in the centre to the left). To the left are the gables of 2 wide aisled train sheds, both slightly bowed and with vertical-paned glazing (but the outer smaller), and to the right the gable of the 3rd train shed with altered glazing. The east side wall (to Butler Street), altered at various dates (principally by removal of former booking office) and recently renovated, is mostly a continuous arcade of stilted arched windows matching those of the office blocks on the main platform (see below).

INTERIOR: three brick ranges on main platform, 3 bays wide and respectively 15, 18 and 12 bays long, and of uniform design: tall ground floors treated as stilted arcades, the piers on moulded plinths of grey granite but otherwise of buff brick with moulded sandstone frames, capitals and architraves, and the openings mostly filled with tripartite wooden and glazed screens with dentilled cornices at impost level and radiating glazing bars in the overlights; between the arches, small carved corbels to cast-iron roof brackets with foliated open-work; a string course above the arches, and a moulded frieze and cornice. All these blocks (including the entrance) linked by sections matching the structure of the main sheds (but the one-bay gap between the centre and south ranges reduced to a tunnel by modern brick infilling). The train shed has a 4-span roof carried on cast-iron columns which have fern-leaf enrichment to the feet, stiff-leaf and lily decoration to the caps, and are linked by arched longitudinal latticed girders with rosette and tendril decoration; steel arch-braces with cast-iron foliated open-work, steel roof trusses with webs of tension rods, linked by latticed clasped purlins; and foliated arch-braced trusses to the central smoke-louvres. Ramp down from booking office to main platform protected by cast-iron railings with large rosette open-work panels, and top rail with star-and-spike cresting; footbridges at entrance end, of cast and wrought-iron, with latticed sides to the deck and straight steps with half-landings and decorated iron balustrading; subways linking centres of platforms, entered from central platform by a U-ramp and from east island by straight ramp, both protected by twisted bar railings, and from west island by steps protected by panelled railings.

History: built as compound station to replace former complex of separate platforms and offices built by different railway companies since 1838. A First World War memorial plaque dedicated to The Preston Pals ‘D’ Company the 7th (Service) Battalion of the Loyal North Lancashire Regiment (19th West Division), designed by John Shaw, was installed between Platforms 3 and 4 in 2012.

Fishergate Bridge is listed too.

FISHERGATE BRIDGE, Non Civil Parish - 1209986 | Historic England

List entry 1209986. Grade II Listed Building: Fishergate Bridge. May include summary, reasons for designation and history.

historicengland.org.uk

Details
PRESTON

SD5329 FISHERGATE 941-1/6/107 Fishergate Bridge

GV II

Road bridge over main railway lines. Later C19, extended. Sandstone ashlar and cast-iron. Very large rectangular piers, and high parapet of cast-iron panels. Entrance to central approach to station on south side. Included for group value only.

Listing NGR: SD5344029208

 

[S&CLER]

One thing I have wondered in the past is whether the main entrance should be relocated to where the silly pointless side entrance is at the moment (the one from the car park that looks like an ugly wart on the side of a quite attractive trainshed) with a proper new building there with ticket office and barriers, and then you could put a decent wide bridge with lifts/escalators across all the platforms at that point, replacing the subway? There's a useful gap in the P3/4 buildings at that point to accommodate the subway access ramp, and it's quite wide.

That would effectively replace the Fishergate "main entrance" (does any other major station have such a tiny doorway being the de-facto main entrance? [1]) which could be closed. The one where the existing ticket office is could gain a set of remotely monitored barriers and a couple of TVMs to avoid people needing to walk round, though it would probably make sense to relocate the main car drop-off from there to down by the new building in the car park so it'd only really be to serve people walking to the station from the Penwortham side of the road bridge.

[1] Actually, I suppose Liverpool Lime St does, the small entrance facing onto Skelhorne St is barely any bigger and is the busiest of the entrances, though it doesn't suffer from the narrow bridge!

The Fishergate entrance is useful for rail to bus connections. Anyone wanting the 2 or X2 bus for Southport will use this exit from the station. The bus stop is actually handier now than it was a few years ago.

 

[Elecman]

That was an earlier suggestion - I reckon you could get a Reading style mezzanine in there, which could be made wide enough to have "railside" and "landside" halves, allowing the station to be gated.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Nov 2020 ==



It already is, provided you take down Network Rail's Portakabins and put the track back in.

Not only take down the modular building , but you will also have to realign the platform faces as there is an offset midway down the platform and remove a very large lump of concrete and masonry where the old Red Star depot is. I’m also interested why the NU sidings OLE is still permanently Earthed now more EMUs use Preston

 

[Ianno87]

Would 7 be useful for Ormskirk/Colne reversals as a substitute for 3C, as they are only 2-car DMUs and aren't likely to be longer any time soon? Pretty sure it fits 2x23m? 4C seems to be very rarely used.

Using 7 from Ormskirk / Colne involves conflicting with absolutely everything on the way across.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Using 7 from Ormskirk / Colne involves conflicting with absolutely everything on the way across.

It does, but it's not like Preston is congested compared with places on the WCML further south.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

It does, but it's not like Preston is congested compared with places on the WCML further south.

Which of course would mean (unless there is strong political representation) that the Outline Business Case would not stack up too well.

 

[class17]

Using 7 from Ormskirk / Colne involves conflicting with absolutely everything on the way across.

Perhaps a cheap solution would be to extend the northern half of platform 1 (or two thirds of its length) outwards to the west over the existing platform track, for trains continuing to Blackpool. Creating a wider platform at the stairs and the original platform track at the south end could become a bay between the up and down slow line for trains from the south.

It won't solve a lot of problems, but perhaps a few at a low cost to anything else substantial.

 

[Elecman]

Would 7 be useful for Ormskirk/Colne reversals as a substitute for 3C, as they are only 2-car DMUs and aren't likely to be longer any time soon? Pretty sure it fits 2x23m? 4C seems to be very rarely used.

The RES platform would be far better for that as your not having to cross the entire station throat

 

[30907]

Perhaps a cheap solution would be to extend the northern half of platform 1 (or two thirds of its length) outwards to the west over the existing platform track, for trains continuing to Blackpool. Creating a wider platform at the stairs and the original platform track at the south end could become a bay between the up and down slow line for trains from the south.

It won't solve a lot of problems, but perhaps a few at a low cost to anything else substantial.

My hesitation is that IMO the whole of 1/2 is uncomfortably narrow. However, I suppose the south end isn't much used in normal circumstances, and provided you can widen the subway access it should be OK.

 

[skifans]

If you've not seen it yesterday a video appeared on the HS2 YouTube page - part of which includes changes to Preston station:

- the section on Preston is at the 4 minuet mark.

The short version is that the plan includes closing 3C & 4C to extend 3 & 4 to the south. Trains using 3C & 4C will instead use RES preston which will be reopened. With the footbridge extended to them and both the subways re-opened. The same information is also at: https://www.hs2.org.uk/stations/preston/

 

[Bletchleyite]

My hesitation is that IMO the whole of 1/2 is uncomfortably narrow. However, I suppose the south end isn't much used in normal circumstances, and provided you can widen the subway access it should be OK.

Wouldn't that idea mean that the northern end of 1/2 (which is used) would be wider?

Assuming that you kept the widened bit 6x24m long to allow for 6.331 formations (do you ever get 7s or 8s, or do the 4-cars only run alone?) you could perhaps fence off the part of 2 further down, and have it as a single-sided bay?

The Pendolino to Blackpool is I suppose the only spanner in the works - can you get to Blackpool from 3? I seem to recall you can't?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Nov 2020 ==

If you've not seen it yesterday a video appeared on the HS2 YouTube page - part of which includes changes to Preston station:

- the section on Preston is at the 4 minuet mark.

The short version is that the plan includes closing 3C & 4C to extend 3 & 4 to the south. Trains using 3C & 4C will instead use RES preston which will be reopened. With the footbridge extended to them and both the subways re-opened. The same information is also at: https://www.hs2.org.uk/stations/preston/

Cheers for that. I had no idea that there was going to be a connection at Wigan, I thought it was all entering that "branch" at Crewe.

It doesn't seem to actually say reopening the Res site, but does suggest construction of a new platform, for which that would be reasonably logical. Though for a shorter bridge they could plonk an entirely new platform nearer to the main station building, which depending on the work needed to the buildings on the Res site may prove cheaper with a modular platform and waiting room just put over the top of one of the disused tracks.

I don't think there will be many tears shed for 3C and 4C, they are second only to Manchester Piccadilly 13/14 for inconvenience, and I've seen many people miss trains due to either not knowing where they were or timing their arrival for departure from 1 or 2 when Ormskirks and Colnes mostly went from one of those.

 

[MarkyT]

It doesn't seem to actually say reopening the Res site, but does suggest construction of a new platform, for which that would be reasonably logical. Though for a shorter bridge they could plonk an entirely new platform nearer to the main station building, which depending on the work needed to the buildings on the Res site may prove cheaper with a modular platform and waiting room just put over the top of one of the disused tracks.

I don't think there will be many tears shed for 3C and 4C, they are second only to Manchester Piccadilly 13/14 for inconvenience, and I've seen many people miss trains due to either not knowing where they were or timing their arrival for departure from 1 or 2 when Ormskirks and Colnes mostly went from one of those.

The video mentions trains from 3/4C relocated to the old 'parcels platform' and a diagram is shown with the bridge extending to that site. Makes sense accommodating all the branch locals on a dedicated facility to the west, avoiding conflict with fast services using the other platforms. 3/4C are pretty rubbish in that respect.

 

[waverley47]

Slightly off topic, but I noticed there had been some drastic remodelling done to the Carlisle station concourse in that video. Are they actually planning on knocking through the two sets of bay platforms or was that just bad design?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The video mentions trains from 3/4C relocated to the old 'parcels platform' and a diagram is shown with the bridge extending to that site. Makes sense accommodating all the branch locals on a dedicated facility to the west, avoiding conflict with fast services using the other platforms. 3/4C are pretty rubbish in that respect.

3/4C are pretty rubbish in every respect

When things were less busy Ormskirks usually used 1 or 2, which was much easier to get to. They never said when I bought my ticket that I'd need to walk to Croston first

 

[Whistler40145]

Wouldn't that idea mean that the northern end of 1/2 (which is used) would be wider?

Assuming that you kept the widened bit 6x24m long to allow for 6.331 formations (do you ever get 7s or 8s, or do the 4-cars only run alone?) you could perhaps fence off the part of 2 further down, and have it as a single-sided bay?

The Pendolino to Blackpool is I suppose the only spanner in the works - can you get to Blackpool from 3? I seem to recall you can't?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Nov 2020 ==



Cheers for that. I had no idea that there was going to be a connection at Wigan, I thought it was all entering that "branch" at Crewe.

It doesn't seem to actually say reopening the Res site, but does suggest construction of a new platform, for which that would be reasonably logical. Though for a shorter bridge they could plonk an entirely new platform nearer to the main station building, which depending on the work needed to the buildings on the Res site may prove cheaper with a modular platform and waiting room just put over the top of one of the disused tracks.

I don't think there will be many tears shed for 3C and 4C, they are second only to Manchester Piccadilly 13/14 for inconvenience, and I've seen many people miss trains due to either not knowing where they were or timing their arrival for departure from 1 or 2 when Ormskirks and Colnes mostly went from one of those.

Trains to Blackpool North can use Platforms 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 and the RES Platform as all are bi directional signalled

 

[ScottGallagher]

Thankfully any time I have had to change at Preston the connection has been short, once in a while there is an opportunity to squeeze in a quick (ropy) pint. It's all round dreary like Crewe and anything else south of Lancaster on the WCML.
Far prefer Lancaster as a station , if only it had room for a bar....

Maybe HS2 will bring transformation of sorts but you cant polish a turd.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thankfully any time I have had to change at Preston the connection has been short, once in a while there is an opportunity to squeeze in a quick (ropy) pint. It's all round dreary like Crewe and anything else south of Lancaster on the WCML.
Far prefer Lancaster as a station , if only it had room for a bar....

You could easily convert the Costa on the island platform to a bar, it has most of the ambiance of one, just sells coffee rather than plonk.