Fixed Penalty Notice

[Ya1]

My daughter has been issued with a £100 fixed penalty notice from Northern Rail

She bought a ticket and applied her 16-25 Railcard (the journey was £2 instead of £3.60) unfortunately she didn't have her Railcard in her bag, the conductor took her details but said there wouldn't be a fine she would just need to prove she had a Railcard

The first letter came through asking to confirm the journey , which she did, and put an explanation as to what had happened, she was also asked to email her Railcard, which again she did.

However this fixed penalty notice has now arrived with a £100 fine •the £3.60. cost of journey. this seems very excessive for a genuine mistake and she feels criminalised that she was trying to fare dodge.

I have paid the fine as did not want to risk a) this increasing b) her getting a criminal conviction for a mistake

Is it worth still appealing or do we just take it on the chin.
Looking at this forum the conductor didn't give her the option to pay the additional £1.60, buy a new ticket for 3.60, nor was a penalty fare notice issued instead (with the option to appeal or pay a lower amount )

There is no option to appeal on this letter it's basically pay up or face prosecution.

 

[signed]

Can you post a, personal information redacted, copy of the letter?

---

When has that happened exactly?

A 16-25 railcard, on weekdays, except for this July and August, a minimum fare of £12 before 10am . Meaning you can't use discounted walk-up tickets under £12 full stop (unless it's Advance tickets)

I can't remember but I think you have a provision for forgotten Railcard once a year

What happens if I don't have my Railcard with me and I have to buy a new ticket or pay a Penalty Fare? - 16-25 Railcard

A 16-25 Railcard costs just �30 and it'll save you 1/3 on rail fares throughout Great Britain for a whole year.

www.16-25railcard.co.uk

However, a train company will normally allow you to claim back this extra expense on the first occasion in each year where this happens.


Each train company will have their own process for doing this. You will need to provide proof of your Railcard and either the original and additional tickets that you have purchased, or if you have not yet paid, details of the notice to pay or notice of Penalty Fare. Where you have already paid for additional tickets you should contact the relevant train company’s customer services department; in the case of a notice to pay or notice of Penalty Fare, you should follow the instructions included on how to challenge or appeal the charge.

 

[Ya1]

It was on a Sunday in July. She hasn't had any problems before and regularly gets the train Leeds to Manchester , so this would be the first time this has happened. There is no option to appeal on the letter, it's just pay up or be prosecuted.!

 

[WesternLancer]

It was on a Sunday in July. She hasn't had any problems before and regularly gets the train Leeds to Manchester , so this would be the first time this has happened. There is no option to appeal on the letter, it's just pay up or be prosecuted.!

So was her Railcard valid and in date had she had it with her to show?

And she had not made this same mistake of not having it with her to show on a previous occasion in the 12 months before?

I’m trying to see why Northern did not apply the forgotten Railcard policy as stated above in this case.

 

[Ya1]

Yes she has a valid Railcard, but she'd just returned from holiday, so had taken it out of her bag, so forgot it that day. So didn't have it to show the conductor. She has had an email and sent a copy of the Railcard since but has still received the fine. And no not had any problems previously.

She had an initial letter stating date of incident, and she had to write on the back of the letter what had happened, then an email asking for the Railcard, then this fixed penalty notice has come through, which is basically pay or it will go to magistrates court and incur extra costs

 

[WesternLancer]

You are correct to say that there is no right of appeal with these so called Fixed Penalty Notices (in reality I think they are an out of court settlement offer). if the policy on forgotten railcard was not followed I would think you have grounds to complain about that with a view to a refund. Maybe they have made a mistake after all

That policy is stated clearly on the railcard t&c so I would presume they do not have the discretion to ignore it. But it will be helpful to see what experts here think.

People may want you to upload copes of all paperwork from them and from your daughter/you to see. Remove or obscure all personal details and ref numbers.

 

[Titfield]

Have Northern made a mistake? If the answer is Yes then a complaint to Customer Services seeking a refund of the penalty fare and the additional fare charged. If the answer is No then there are no grounds for complaining.

How can you tell if Northern have made a mistake? Upload a copy of the paperwork and tickets (with names, reference numbers obscured) and the forum experts should be able to tell if the tickets were valid and thus Northern have made a mistake.

 

[jamiearmley]

I think what has happened here is actually far more simple.

The automated system has issued the fixed penalty because your email was not dealt with before the automated system acted.

Drop them an email or give them a call on Monday and explain and you will probably find that this is what has happened and your money will be refunded to you.

Contact the debt recovery department directly. Do not go to customer services as they will just refer you to the debt recovery department.

Any contact with customer services EG for the complaints suggested by other posters should be a separate thing.

You will find this is a simple administrative error and it will be quickly resolved.

Good luck.

 

[Ya1]

I think what has happened here is actually far more simple.

The automated system has issued the fixed penalty because your email was not dealt with before the automated system acted.

Drop them an email or give them a call on Monday and explain and you will probably find that this is what has happened and your money will be refunded to you.

Contact the debt recovery department directly. Do not go to customer services as they will just refer you to the debt recovery department.

Any contact with customer services EG for the complaints suggested by other posters should be a separate thing.

You will find this is a simple administrative error and it will be quickly resolved.

Good luck.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Aug 2024 ==

This is the fixed penalty notice, we'll contact them Monday, hopefully the outcome will be good

 

[WesternLancer]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Aug 2024 ==

This is the fixed penalty notice, we'll contact them Monday, hopefully the outcome will be good

You may want to post a draft of what you want to write to them here for people to help check before you send it so the appropriate railway terminology can be used

Don’t bother trying to ring them about it imho.

As well as that upload do you have copies of what was originally set and your reply to that.

 

[Ya1]

Rough draft of letter to be sent, help with anything I should include or exclude would be appreciated

 

[jamiearmley]

You may want to post a draft of what you want to write to them here for people to help check before you send it so the appropriate railway terminology can be used

Don’t bother trying to ring them about it imho.

As well as that upload do you have copies of what was originally set and your reply to that.

Honestly, just ring them Monday. Lines open 9 till 4. Easily sorted with one phone call.

If it is something other than 'letters crossing in the post' so to speak, then come back to us Monday for advice if you like

For now, relax, forget, and enjoy your weekend.

 

[Ya1]

This is first letter and my daughter's reply

 

[WesternLancer]

Honestly, just ring them Monday. Lines open 9 till 4. Easily sorted with one phone call.

If it is something other than 'letters crossing in the post' so to speak, then come back to us Monday for advice if you like

For now, relax, forget, and enjoy your weekend.

Your optimism is admirable…

 

[jamiearmley]

Your optimism is admirable…

Possibly.

But there's good reason for it, and fairly obvious when you think about it.

It should be noted that I rarely comment in this forum subsection, I only comment on Northern matters, and I only make a comment when I can see the more excitable element girding their loins for battle - causing the OP to become more alarmed and stressed by the situation.

The OP will speak to a person on Monday, and will either resolve, or find out, the solution to the current problem.

I would lay money on it.

 

[najaB]

Yes she has a valid Railcard, but she'd just returned from holiday, so had taken it out of her bag, so forgot it that day. So didn't have it to show the conductor. She has had an email and sent a copy of the Railcard since but has still received the fine. And no not had any problems previously.

Sounds to me like her initial response got lost in the system somewhere. Since you've already paid the penalty notice there's no risk of it proceeding to court, so you absolutely should be raising a strongly-worded complaint to the customer services team asking for the money to be refunded.

Edit: Just read the advice above to skip Customer Services and go directly to the recovery team, which seems an eminent suggestion.

 

[WesternLancer]

Possibly.

But there's good reason for it, and fairly obvious when you think about it.

It should be noted that I rarely comment in this forum subsection, I only comment on Northern matters, and I only make a comment when I can see the more excitable element girding their loins for battle - causing the OP to become more alarmed and stressed by the situation.

The OP will speak to a person on Monday, and will either resolve, or find out, the solution to the current problem.

I would lay money on it.

Your advice certainly represents how things should be.

 

[island]

You are correct to say that there is no right of appeal with these so called Fixed Penalty Notices (in reality I think they are an out of court settlement offer). if the policy on forgotten railcard was not followed I would think you have grounds to complain about that with a view to a refund. Maybe they have made a mistake after all

That policy is stated clearly on the railcard t&c so I would presume they do not have the discretion to ignore it. But it will be helpful to see what experts here think.

It’s actually in the NRCOT section 8, and only covers a refund of a Penalty Fare or a new ticket purchased. It doesn’t cover reports for prosecution.

One would hope that there would be common sense applied, but this is the railway.

 

[jamiearmley]

It’s actually in the NRCOT section 8, and only covers a refund of a Penalty Fare or a new ticket purchased. It doesn’t cover reports for prosecution.

One would hope that there would be common sense applied, but this is the railway.

Thankfully, the passenger has not received a ' report for prosecution'.

There is no such named report used at Northern.

The passenger has been issued with a travel incident report, known as a TIR.

This means that a travel irregularity has been detected - In this case, unable to provide a rail card.

The investigation process allows for the railcard to be provided to the investigating office on one occasion per 12 months and once the rail card is verified the customer is notified, thanked for complying with the process, and the matter is closed.

This process is in fact far preferable to having a penalty fare issued which you have to appeal, and also preferable to being forced to pay out what could be a considerable sum of money at the time of inspection in the form of a new ticket and then have to claim that back later.

Discussions over whether or not the forgotten rail card policy as laid out in the NrCOT applies to this case are, in my opinion, unhelpful to the OP who is already under stress dealing with this set of circumstances - especially given the large body of evidence on this very forum subsection demonstrating that the forgotten rail card policy is uniformly applied by all TOCS to travel incident reports.

 

[soil]

Thankfully, the passenger has not received a ' report for prosecution'.

There is no such named report used at Northern.

The passenger has been issued with a travel incident report, known as a TIR.

This means that a travel irregularity has been detected - In this case, unable to provide a rail card.

The investigation process allows for the railcard to be provided to the investigating office on one occasion per 12 months and once the rail card is verified the customer is notified, thanked for complying with the process, and the matter is closed.

This process is in fact far preferable to having a penalty fare issued which you have to appeal, and also preferable to being forced to pay out what could be a considerable sum of money at the time of inspection in the form of a new ticket and then have to claim that back later.

How could it be better than a penalty fare? A penalty fare is £50 and contains statutory safeguards.
This is double that and is at Northern's whim.

 

[island]

Thankfully, the passenger has not received a ' report for prosecution'.

I didn't say they had.

There is no such named report used at Northern.

I didn't say there was.

The passenger has been issued with a travel incident report, known as a TIR.

TIR actually stands for ticket irregularity report.

This means that a travel irregularity has been detected - In this case, unable to provide a rail card.

The investigation process allows for the railcard to be provided to the investigating office on one occasion per 12 months and once the rail card is verified the customer is notified, thanked for complying with the process, and the matter is closed.

...at the discretion of the TOC, the point I made to begin with.

This process is in fact far preferable to having a penalty fare issued which you have to appeal, and also preferable to being forced to pay out what could be a considerable sum of money at the time of inspection in the form of a new ticket and then have to claim that back later.

You're welcome to that opinion. Others would prefer a process that is set out in the NRCOT and in law, with protections.

Discussions over whether or not the forgotten rail card policy as laid out in the NrCOT

...which, as I said, only states that they will refund penalty fares or new tickets

applies to this case are, in my opinion, unhelpful to the OP who is already under stress dealing with this set of circumstances - especially given the large body of evidence on this very forum subsection demonstrating that the forgotten rail card policy is uniformly applied by all TOCS to travel incident reports.

You're welcome to that opinion too.

 

[najaB]

How could it be better than a penalty fare? A penalty fare is £50 and contains statutory safeguards.

Not wanting to speak on behalf of another poster, but one way that it could be said to be better is that a TIR, in itself, isn't punitive, as opposed to a penalty fare which you're liable to pay unless you can prove that you're not.

This is double that and is at Northern's whim.

To be fair, issuing the TIR didn't automatically result in the £100 liability.

 

[soil]

Not wanting to speak on behalf of another poster, but one way that it could be said to be better is that a TIR, in itself, isn't punitive, as opposed to a penalty fare which you're liable to pay unless you can prove that you're not.

To be fair, issuing the TIR didn't automatically result in the £100 liability.

this thread is titled 'fixed penalty notice' and offers the following options:

1. pay £100 to settle with no action or
2. reply within 14 days and ??? or
3. don't reply within 14 days, and they will prosecute, costing around £400

this compares to FPN:

1. appeal up to 3 times and still only pay £50 if you lose
2. don't pay following this and the liability goes up to £100 but the TOC cannot prosecute and in practice might not bother to pursue the debt
3. prosecution is statute-barred after first appeal.

I don't really see the point of having statutory FPNs of £50 when nationalized TOCs are making up their own scheme with fewer safeguards and much more punitive .

 

[Ya1]

Thankyou all for your replies, it's much appreciated, my main concern is this affects my daughter, not me so don't want any further action or consequences for her due to this. . We'll contact them Monday, hopefully this will be a case of crossed letters.

 

[najaB]

this thread is titled 'fixed penalty notice' and offers the following options:

1. pay £100 to settle with no action or
2. reply within 14 days and ??? or
3. don't reply within 14 days, and they will prosecute, costing around £400

True. However the actual sequence of events seems to have been:

1. The TIR was issued at which point no fee or penalty was due.
2. The OP replied, providing the requested information, at which point no fee or penalty was due.
3. For reasons that we don't yet know, that reply didn't reach the people that it needed to within the specified timeframe
4. And only at this point was the 'Fixed penalty notice' issued, with the options that you elucidated above.

Had it been a penalty fare, then the fee would have been due at step 1.

 

[furlong]

I am shocked that, in spite of the situation Northern finds itself in at the moment, it is still sending out letters referring to an offer not to prosecute in return for a payment as a "Fixed Penalty". It is not. Northern has no authority to attempt to impose any such penalty. The only penalty it can impose is a Penalty Fare and it is very noteworthy that that would have been for a lower amount if paid promptly! All it can seek to do in return for not pursuing a legitimate prosecution is recover its direct costs in dealing with the specific case, to put it back into the position it would have been in had the alleged crime not been committed - and that payment would not be a penalty.

Worse here, we have an example of someone who has paid a "Fixed Penalty" that, even on its own terms, should never have been issued. How many more people have been tricked into paying a "Fixed Penalty" in circumstances where they would not have been prosecuted legitimately?

There needs to be an external inquiry into what is still going on at this train company. How many of these "Fixed Penalty Notices" were paid under false pretences and might have to be refunded?

Is the OP willing to raise what happened here with their MP and/or the press?

 

[island]

All it can seek to do in return for not pursuing a legitimate prosecution is recover its direct costs in dealing with the specific case, to put it back into the position it would have been in had the alleged crime not been committed - and that payment would not be a penalty.

What law says that?

 

[furlong]

What law says that?

If this was a civil dispute, within certain bounds, the parties could negotiate whatever settlement they wished. But when investigating and prosecuting a criminal matter, it is the courts alone that decide what penalty to impose - you cannot usurp the courts by introducing your own system of "out of court" penalties for criminal matters.

Here is an extreme example:

11. ... In the second paragraph they observed that the request for £30,000.00 (Thirty Thousand Pounds) in return for agreement not to commence a private prosecution was tantamount to blackmail. It might not be blackmail, but it certainly would have rendered the agreement unenforceable on public policy grounds.

Further, the train companies are tightly regulated in what they can do by virtue of their agreement with the DfT.

Letter from DfT to Northern, 9th January 2013 (released under FOI):

...there is one crucial element of the scheme that we feel requires further explanation. This is Northern's ability to issue a fixed penalty in the event that the passenger does not pay the outstanding fare within the specified time limit....It is our view that such a penalty does not amount to a "fixed penalty" and that it can only be imposed by a Magistrates' Court. I hope you will understand that the Department could not endorse any action by Northern that was not lawful.

In answer, Northern conceded that

Use of the word 'penalty' gives a misleading impression that the regime is a step in the road of the process of prosecuting rather than reflecting the reality which is that it is an offer to allow a passenger to adopt an alternative arrangement that allows him to avoid court proceedings.
...
[Correspondence] may convey the incorrect impression that a penalty will be imposed if the fare is not paid whereas in reality the individual will be told that they are to be prosecuted however they can avoid that course should they not wish to contest the allegation by entering into an entirely voluntary agreement to pay a fixed payment - fixed at the average cost of processing the application plus the outstanding fare.
...
The only system of financial penalty that is imposed is that which is imposed by the courts.

Make of that what you will, but I would have expected Northern to have revised the wording of its standard letters to address these points directly long ago.

 

[island]

If this was a civil dispute, within certain bounds, the parties could negotiate whatever settlement they wished. But when investigating and prosecuting a criminal matter, it is the courts alone that decide what penalty to impose - you cannot usurp the courts by introducing your own system of "out of court" penalties for criminal matters.

Once again, what law says that? Because it's not:

Here is an extreme example:

as the train companies are not asking for £30,000 or anything close.

Further, the train companies are tightly regulated in what they can do by virtue of their agreement with the DfT.

Letter from DfT to Northern, 9th January 2013 (released under FOI):


In answer, Northern conceded that


Make of that what you will, but I would have expected Northern to have revised the wording of its standard letters to address these points directly long ago.

To the extent that decade-old correspondence with a defunct franchise operator is still relevant, it is not law. Taken at its height, it might give the DfT a right of action against Northern. It gives no rights to passengers.

So your original assertion that

All it can seek to do in return for not pursuing a legitimate prosecution is recover its direct costs in dealing with the specific case, to put it back into the position it would have been in had the alleged crime not been committed - and that payment would not be a penalty.

is in fact just your own opinion. You need to mark your opinions as such when posting, because otherwise you might mislead people into thinking that what you are saying is good law. It is not.

 

[furlong]

is in fact just your own opinion.

Both parties in that correspondence I quote are taking it as read that the train company cannot (a) seek to impose a penalty or (b) seek money in settlement beyond their actual costs. (Northern goes for "average" costs for expediency rather than "direct" costs but any difference should be small.)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2024 ==

as the train companies are not asking for £30,000 or anything close.

The principle of not usurping the role of the court does not depend on the amount.