Fixed penalty notice over a valid ticket - HELP

[Rc]

I got a train to Manchester Piccadilly about a month ago, it was an hour late and the loudspeaker on the train said your ticket was eligible for a refund. I refunded it on trainline as I got off the train, and the ticket was no longer accessible and said “refund processing”.

After some back and forward with the ticket inspector about this, I checked my email and the ticket was there, and was scanned.

Despite this, he still wrote me up a travel incident report, and I’ve been fined over £100 about this. Is there any way to dispute this, as I thought I did have a valid ticket? Thanks for any help

 

[spag23]

Welcome to the forum. Are you sure the announcement was for a "refund", rather than saying you were eligible for Delay Compensation? The latter is the proper mechanism in this situation, and although it could be 100% of the fare, it's not a Refund. And you shouldn't have applied for one, leaving yourself (in transit) without a ticket.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I suspect your ticket became invalid when you refunded it yourself on Trainline

There are proper procedures for claiming refunds (i.e. Delay Repay) which includes sending in a valid ticket to the train company

 

[John R]

Can you remember the precise train you were on? (If so let us know, from where to where, and the time of departure and date). I think any appeal will hinge on proving that the train you were on was over an hour late.

I presume a perusal of your online account won’t show a history of frequent refunds, which might suggest to the investigator another reason for the refund in question.

 

[Titfield]

I suspect your ticket became invalid when you refunded it yourself on Trainline

There are proper procedures for claiming refunds (i.e. Delay Repay) which includes sending in a valid ticket to the train company

Refunds and Delay Repay are completely separate procedures. It is essential that the correct procedure is used according to the circumstances.

The OP should have applied for Delay Repay and not refunded the ticket themselves irrespective of what they (think they) heard over the loudspeaker.

The OP should go back to the issuer of the Fixed Penalty Notice (I think this is what has been issued - it is not a fine) and explain the error they made in refunding the ticket. Hopefully they will be able to prove the date and time of when the refund request was made as that is crucial in verifying their account. They should ask for the Fixed Penalty Notice to be cancelled. However please note that if the ticket has been refunded then the OP will not have paid for the journey they took and this will need rectifying. The OP will have to ask the TOC how to do this,

 

[Rc]

Can you remember the precise train you were on? (If so let us know, from where to where, and the time of departure and date). I think any appeal will hinge on proving that the train you were on was over an hour late.

I presume a perusal of your online account won’t show a history of frequent refunds, which might suggest to the investigator another reason for the refund in question.

Adlington lancs to Manchester picadilly, 15th feb and arrived to the station around 2pm ( train was delayed by around 40 minutes)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Mar 2024 ==

Adlington lancs to Manchester picadilly, 15th feb and arrived to the station around 2pm ( train was delayed by around 40 minutes)

12:39pm - 1:15pm the train was meant to run until (I found a screenshot of that on the ticket email) yet the travel incident report was issues at 14:16

 

[ainsworth74]

So I got a train to Manchester Piccadilly about a month ago, it was an hour late and the loudspeaker on the train said your ticket was eligible for a refund. I refunded it on trainline as I got off the train, and the ticket was no longer accessible and said “refund processing”. After some back and forward with the ticket inspector about this, I checked my email and the ticket was there, and was valid when scanned. Despite this he still wrote me up a travel incident report and I’ve been fined over £100 about this. Is there any way to dispute this as i did have a valid ticket. Thanks for any help

So the problem is that, whilst you've been led astray by the imprecise wording of the announcement (and even without that lots of people refer to "refunds" when they mean delay repay), this action looks like an extremely common form of fare evasion. It's absolutely rife at the moment that people will travel and then hit refund on their app to get the ticket refunded when they're not entitled to a refund (or delay compensation) at all.

This means that you've got a quite a considerable hurdle to overcome in persuading the company that this was an honest mistake rather than attempting a common form of fare evasion.

I suggest that you write back to the company, explain what has happened that you heard an announcement talking about a refund, didn't realise that this was the wrong action in your circumstances, point to the train being delayed so it wasn't just something that you did out of the blue and explain that you now understand the difference between a refund and delay repay and certainly won't make the same mistake again.

How much was the ticket worth that you refunded?

 

[Rc]

So the problem is that, whilst you've been led astray by the imprecise wording of the announcement (and even without that lots of people refer to "refunds" when they mean delay repay), this action looks like an extremely common form of fare evasion. It's absolutely rife at the moment that people will travel and then hit refund on their app to get the ticket refunded when they're not entitled to a refund (or delay compensation) at all.

This means that you've got a quite a considerable hurdle to overcome in persuading the company that this was an honest mistake rather than attempting a common form of fare evasion.

I suggest that you write back to the company, explain what has happened that you heard an announcement talking about a refund, didn't realise that this was the wrong action in your circumstances, point to the train being delayed so it wasn't just something that you did out of the blue and explain that you now understand the difference between a refund and delay repay and certainly won't make the same mistake again.

How much was the ticket worth that you refunded?

Refunded ticket was worth £7.50 bringing the total of the fixed penalty notice to £107.50

 

[ainsworth74]

Refunded ticket was worth £7.50 bringing the total of the fixed penalty notice to £107.50

Okay so via the Trainline you'd have been due £2.50 back, slightly annoying I was hoping the value of the refund would have been £0 just to add a bit more weight to the argument that it was a complete mistake (after all why refund something you'd get nothing back for!).

 

[AlterEgo]

Where abouts on the station were you stopped? At the barriers after leaving the train? I assume from the sequence of events this was a member of barrier staff and not somebody who was on the train.

At what time does your booking confirmation say you purchased your ticket?

How many times have you refunded a ticket on Trainline before? They may audit your purchase and refund history if you contest the matter.

 

[Rc]

Where abouts on the station were you stopped? At the barriers after leaving the train? I assume from the sequence of events this was a member of barrier staff and not somebody who was on the train.

At what time does your booking confirmation say you purchased your ticket?

How many times have you refunded a ticket on Trainline before? They may audit your purchase and refund history if you contest the matter.

Yeah it was barrier staff, the booking confirmation says I booked the tickets at 12:01, for the train that arrives to Manchester at 13:15, and the refund request confirmation shows a time stamp of 13:55. This is my first time I’ve refunded a ticket

 

[island]

it was an hour late

arrived to the station around 2pm ( train was delayed by around 40 minutes)

12:39pm - 1:15pm the train was meant to run until (I found a screenshot of that on the ticket email) yet the travel incident report was issues at 14:16

for the train that arrives to Manchester at 13:15, and the refund request confirmation shows a time stamp of 13:55

You need to get your story straight before replying any further to Northern, because if you contradict yourself as much as you have done here there's no chance they'll believe you that it was an honest misunderstanding.

 

[Honestviews]

You need to get your story straight before replying any further to Northern, because if you contradict yourself as much as you have done here there's no chance they'll believe you that it was an honest misunderstanding.

Looking at the train times I think what the OP means is that the the train was due to arrive at Manchester at 13:15 - on 15 February it arrived at 14:08 (+53 minutes). So it looks like the OP applied for the refund about 8 minutes before it arrived.

Importantly it was not an hour late so the OP was only entitled to compensation of 50% of the ticket cost if it was a single and 25% if it was a return.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Mar 2024 ==

Can you remember the precise train you were on? (If so let us know, from where to where, and the time of departure and date). I think any appeal will hinge on proving that the train you were on was over an hour late.

I presume a perusal of your online account won’t show a history of frequent refunds, which might suggest to the investigator another reason for the refund in question.

I've checked and it was 53 minutes late (arriving at 14.08 rather than 13.15) so under that one hour mark for 100% compensation for a single.