Fixed penalty notice advice.

[littlevix]

A few months ago my husband and I travelled from Westhoughton to Manchester Victoria. The train pulled in as we arrived. We got on, bought a duo return ticket from the lady and enjoyed our day.

A few weeks later we did the exact same thing. Got on the train, intending to purchase a duo ticket, as its cheaper than buying 2 return fares. This time there was nobody on board to purchase the tickets from.

As soon as we arrived into Manchester we approached a member of staff and asked to purchase tickets. Immediately the guy said he was fining us. He was really rude and my husband was rude back to him. Several staff and police wandered over and eventually a different staff member advised that if I gave him our details he would file an incident report, but that we would NOT receive a fine. My husband made sure that this was recorded by the body cams, in case we were fined.

After receiving correspondence from National rail, I advised as above. I was asked to pay the fare amount and no further action taken.

However, my husband has been given a fixed penalty notice for £100.

I've queried why he is being fined, but I wasn't and their reply was because he was abusive to staff. He admits to swearing, but never threatened them at all. He apologised to a police officer, as we left the station, and he said "they've got targets to hit", which is why they are so hard on people.

Anyway, we've asked for copies of the body cam, but have been refused due to it being used in a prosecution! Presumably my husband's!

My question is, should he suck it up and pay, or do we have a chance in court?

Can't we say I was allowed to pay my fare and not fined, so it's inequality. Or even that we wanted to pay, but didn't have the opportunity to. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you

 

[AlbertBeale]

As far as the payment of the fare is concerned, the rule is that you must have the tickets before you travel unless facilities to buy them aren't available. If there were neither staff nor ticket machine at the station you started from which would sell you tickets (or at least the specific ticket you wanted, using the payment method - cash or card - you wanted to use) then you were within your rights to pay en route or (in the case of there being no-one on board to sell you your ticket) at your destination. Your wording seems to suggest that at least the specific (duo) ticket you wanted couldn't be bought at the station - and if that's the case then you were within your rights and the staff member you initially spoke to shouldn't have made any attempt to "fine" you. [Technical note: I presume that isn't the wording they used; a "penalty fare", or anything like that, which in some situations you need to pay to the railway if you don't have the right ticket, isn't technically a fine - whatever it feels like; only a court can fine you if they find you guilty of (or you plead guilty to) an offence.]

In the circumstances, therefore, you might have been right to feel aggrieved at the staff trying to get money off you beyond the cost of the ticket, which is all you were due to pay and which you were trying to pay. The fact that you've subsequently only been asked to pay the normal cost of the ticket - which you were trying to buy anyway - seems to support that analysis of the situation.

In terms of the accusation against your husband for being abusive, that's quite a different matter. The point at which being rude becomes being threatening is of course subjective. And if you were being hassled for money unjustly, then there might be some moral defence to being rude in a non-threatening way. What does puzzle me though is the fixed penalty notice, which does sound like a fine - is it issued by the railway, or have they passed it to a court which have issued this? (If so, presumably you weren't given the option to contest the case in court?) If it's the railway asking for the £100, perhaps they have a right under the byelaws to do this, but I'm surprised; I'm sure others will be along here shortly who know more about that aspect of it. I thought that apart from a "penalty fare", any other demand for money, for an offence under the byelaws, had to be put before a court; though if they do say they're doing this, you can try to agree an out-of-court settlement to avoid a court case, ie paying them what they're owed, and a bit more, so they don't take the case to court. But I thought that this situation only applied in the case of unpaid fares. Is the £100 actually called a "fixed penalty", or is it the figure they want for an out-of-court settlement? It all seems rather strange. If it relates to your husband's allegedly unpaid fare, but they're only dealing with it like that because he was rude (as opposed to trying to penalise him specifically for the alleged rudenss), that seems bizarre, since they accepted in your case that only the fare was due. Surely they can't treat the two of you differently as far as you having (or not) a ticket is concerned, since your ticketing situation was identical.

What would help those on here who know their way round the railway byelaws etc would be if you uploaded a copy of whatever paperwork your husband has received relating to the demand for £100 - though obviously blank out all identifying information first of course. Was there earlier paperwork too, before this demand for £100? If so please share all of it, so people can give you the best advice.

One further point I can say, though, is that their refusal to share the bodycam evidence is not on. If they're threatening that if the £100 isn't paid then they'll take it to court for a prosecution, then it's a basic principle that they must share the evidence they rely on with the other side. In fact, there's a principle that - to stop the prosecution cherry-picking and taking stuff out of context - your husband would have the right to see all of the bodycam footage from the incident. Surely the same principle applies if they're using the footage as a reason to give you a fixed penalty notice in the first place - they must (I'd have thought) justify their demand. By the way, do you know who the police were that were there, as well as the railway staff; it's possible that their evidence might be of some help if it went to court.

From what you say, it sounds as though you might have a reasonable chance of contesting the case if it went to court. But perhaps you're very keen that it doesn't go that far; maybe you husband doesn't want the risk of getting a criminal record (even a minor one). In which case, watch out for more replies here from people better versed than I am in the railway's own regulations and byelaws. On the other hand, you - or you husband anyway - might be sufficiently angry to have been put through this if you hadn't done anything wrong in the first place that you want to fight the case and take that risk...

Good luck.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Westhoughton station (operated by Northern) doesn't have a ticket office. It just has a card only TVM on each platform. Key questions. Are they capable of issuing 'Duo' tickets? And is any penalty signage compliant?

 

[Deafdoggie]

Taking everything you say at face value, the railway have shot themselves in the foot if they don't release the video footage to you if they plan to go to court. They must present all evidence to you pre-trial, if they don't, the court isn't going to look favourably upon them. But even a vaguely competent in their prosecutions department will know this.
It might be this video no longer exists for whatever reason, and they're trying to bluff their way. But it's unlikely to succeed in court without it, as it's then simply "he said, you said".
Potentially, you might have "got away" with it as the video showed the officier saying you wouldn't get fined. But it doesn't show him saying to your husband, so they're after him for the fare evasion.
But, what we really need is to see the paperwork as above. Retract your details, reference number, etc and post it, so we can see what the railway is actually doing.
On a side note, you say you simply paid the fare due. How much was this? An adult, single, return or duo fare? How did you return the day you were stopped?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2023 ==

Westhoughton station (operated by Northern) doesn't have a ticket office. It just has a card only TVM on each platform. Key questions. Are they capable of issuing 'Duo' tickets? And is any penalty signage compliant?

Yes. But did the OP want to pay cash?

 

[Haywain]

And is any penalty signage compliant?

Completely irrelevant as no Penalty Fare has been issued.

 

[RAPC]

They don’t have to release the video evidence until a court date is set. It may also be that paying the fine stops anything going to court though.

Separately, would public coverage of the situation cause embarrassment to you and / or your husband? Would a trip to court cause any issue with your husband’s employer? Those are the potential risks I can see, should the story get picked up via the media.

The railway industry very rightly takes abuse of staff very seriously. Depending on the perceived severity of the swearing and abuse received, it may well be PR’d as a deterrent.

Others on here may well disagree, but I’d strongly recommend paying the £100 if the potential risks above are of concern. I think we’ve all experienced frustrating experiences as passengers, but abusing staff should never be acceptable.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

However, my husband has been given a fixed penalty notice for £100.

Completely irrelevant as no Penalty Fare has been issued.

Quite possibly. So what's the £100 that's supposedly being demanded for, exactly?

 

[yorkie]

Quite possibly. So what's the £100 that's supposedly being demanded for, exactly?

An out of court settlement.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Others on here may well disagree, but I’d strongly recommend paying the £100 if the potential risks above are of concern. I think we’ve all experienced frustrating experiences as passengers, but abusing staff should never be acceptable

I'd agree. You really aren't in a strong position.
- the rule is that if you can, you should buy your ticket before getting on the train.
- The internet suggests that Westhoughton has a ticket machine (https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/stations/westhoughton)
- another part of the internet suggests that Duo tickets can be bought from ticket machines (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...gQFnoECCUQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2M1SxI679V7ZMCocRQ05-i - this doesn't seem to be 'official')
- so unless the ticket machine was broken, you could have bought your ticket before travelling.
- to aggravate matters, you accept that your husband was rude to the staff
- although others may hold different views, the railway consider that their employees should be treated with respect during their working day. For what it's worth, I agree
- so the railway are unlikely to extend sympathy to your husband, and indeed they haven't.

From where I sit, I think your best option is to pay the amount demanded, and put the matter behind you.

 

[island]

Got on the train, intending to purchase a duo ticket, as its cheaper than buying 2 return fares.

Why didn’t you buy your tickets before boarding from the ticket machine at the station (or online)?

 

[Deafdoggie]

- although others may hold different views, the railway consider that their employees should be treated with respect during their working day. For what it's worth, I agree

I do believe everyone should be treated with respect. But until we've seen the actual paperwork, we don't know what is going on & what has happened.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Quite possibly. So what's the £100 that's supposedly being demanded for, exactly?

An out of court settlement.

To avoid prosecution for what?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I do believe everyone should be treated with respect. But until we've seen the actual paperwork, we don't know what is going on & what has happened.

I'm not sure that the paperwork will provide anything more on this point than what the OP said in their original post:

He was really rude and my husband was rude back to him. (...)
However, my husband has been given a fixed penalty notice for £100. I've queried why he is being fined, but I wasn't and their reply was because he was abusive to staff. He admits to swearing, but never threatened them at all.

 

[Haywain]

But until we've seen the actual paperwork, we don't know what is going on & what has happened

We don't know the details but we do know that it was bad enough for the police to be involved, as well as other staff. To me, that says it was pretty bad.

 

[AlterEgo]

My advice is to pay up and learn a lesson that being abusive to staff will always result in the worst possible outcome. Several staff and police wandered over to the altercation which tells its own story.

Even if the ticketing matter is dropped, Northern have noted the swearing/abuse and will often proceed with a separate Bylaw prosecution for that, for their own PR.

 

[littlevix]

We don't know the details but we do know that it was bad enough for the police to be involved, as well as other staff. To me, that says it was pretty bad.

Nobody else actually became "involved", they just gravitated to us as my husband was being loud and insistent that he wasn't paying a fine. As far as I remember those are the words he used "I'm issuing you a fine because you didn't buy a ticket. According to him there has been an advertising campaign for the last 2 years advising that you need to buy a ticket before you travel. We don't normally travel by train, but recently our car was stolen, so we used the train. A couple of rail staff members told me that my husband shouldn't shout at their staff, but when someone has been rude and abrupt to you, it's very difficult. The police officer we spoke to on our way out witnessed what happened, but nobody became involved. It wasn't a serious situation, my husband basically told the rail guy he was out of order, we wanted to buy tickets on the train, as we couldn't do so we were asking to purchase at our 1st opportunity. He told the rail guy he hopes karma will come back to him and his family, but he didn't threaten anybody at all.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2023 ==

As far as the payment of the fare is concerned, the rule is that you must have the tickets before you travel unless facilities to buy them aren't available. If there were neither staff nor ticket machine at the station you started from which would sell you tickets (or at least the specific ticket you wanted, using the payment method - cash or card - you wanted to use) then you were within your rights to pay en route or (in the case of there being no-one on board to sell you your ticket) at your destination. Your wording seems to suggest that at least the specific (duo) ticket you wanted couldn't be bought at the station - and if that's the case then you were within your rights and the staff member you initially spoke to shouldn't have made any attempt to "fine" you. [Technical note: I presume that isn't the wording they used; a "penalty fare", or anything like that, which in some situations you need to pay to the railway if you don't have the right ticket, isn't technically a fine - whatever it feels like; only a court can fine you if they find you guilty of (or you plead guilty to) an offence.]

In the circumstances, therefore, you might have been right to feel aggrieved at the staff trying to get money off you beyond the cost of the ticket, which is all you were due to pay and which you were trying to pay. The fact that you've subsequently only been asked to pay the normal cost of the ticket - which you were trying to buy anyway - seems to support that analysis of the situation.

In terms of the accusation against your husband for being abusive, that's quite a different matter. The point at which being rude becomes being threatening is of course subjective. And if you were being hassled for money unjustly, then there might be some moral defence to being rude in a non-threatening way. What does puzzle me though is the fixed penalty notice, which does sound like a fine - is it issued by the railway, or have they passed it to a court which have issued this? (If so, presumably you weren't given the option to contest the case in court?) If it's the railway asking for the £100, perhaps they have a right under the byelaws to do this, but I'm surprised; I'm sure others will be along here shortly who know more about that aspect of it. I thought that apart from a "penalty fare", any other demand for money, for an offence under the byelaws, had to be put before a court; though if they do say they're doing this, you can try to agree an out-of-court settlement to avoid a court case, ie paying them what they're owed, and a bit more, so they don't take the case to court. But I thought that this situation only applied in the case of unpaid fares. Is the £100 actually called a "fixed penalty", or is it the figure they want for an out-of-court settlement? It all seems rather strange. If it relates to your husband's allegedly unpaid fare, but they're only dealing with it like that because he was rude (as opposed to trying to penalise him specifically for the alleged rudenss), that seems bizarre, since they accepted in your case that only the fare was due. Surely they can't treat the two of you differently as far as you having (or not) a ticket is concerned, since your ticketing situation was identical.

What would help those on here who know their way round the railway byelaws etc would be if you uploaded a copy of whatever paperwork your husband has received relating to the demand for £100 - though obviously blank out all identifying information first of course. Was there earlier paperwork too, before this demand for £100? If so please share all of it, so people can give you the best advice.

One further point I can say, though, is that their refusal to share the bodycam evidence is not on. If they're threatening that if the £100 isn't paid then they'll take it to court for a prosecution, then it's a basic principle that they must share the evidence they rely on with the other side. In fact, there's a principle that - to stop the prosecution cherry-picking and taking stuff out of context - your husband would have the right to see all of the bodycam footage from the incident. Surely the same principle applies if they're using the footage as a reason to give you a fixed penalty notice in the first place - they must (I'd have thought) justify their demand. By the way, do you know who the police were that were there, as well as the railway staff; it's possible that their evidence might be of some help if it went to court.

From what you say, it sounds as though you might have a reasonable chance of contesting the case if it went to court. But perhaps you're very keen that it doesn't go that far; maybe you husband doesn't want the risk of getting a criminal record (even a minor one). In which case, watch out for more replies here from people better versed than I am in the railway's own regulations and byelaws. On the other hand, you - or you husband anyway - might be sufficiently angry to have been put through this if you hadn't done anything wrong in the first place that you want to fight the case and take that risk...

Good luck.

I didn't keep the letters, but have got their email responses. I'll post soon.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2023 ==

To avoid prosecution for what?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2023 ==

Nobody else actually became "involved", they just gravitated to us as my husband was being loud and insistent that he wasn't paying a fine. As far as I remember those are the words he used "I'm issuing you a fine because you didn't buy a ticket. According to him there has been an advertising campaign for the last 2 years advising that you need to buy a ticket before you travel. We don't normally travel by train, but recently our car was stolen, so we used the train. A couple of rail staff members told me that my husband shouldn't shout at their staff, but when someone has been rude and abrupt to you, it's very difficult. The police officer we spoke to on our way out witnessed what happened, but nobody became involved. It wasn't a serious situation, my husband basically told the rail guy he was out of order, we wanted to buy tickets on the train, as we couldn't do so we were asking to purchase at our 1st opportunity. He told the rail guy he hopes karma will come back to him and his family, but he didn't threaten anybody at all.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2023 ==


I didn't keep the letters, but have got their email responses. I'll post soon.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2023 ==

This is mentioning the fixed penalty notice. I paid £7ish for my fare. When we travelled back to Westhoughton, from Manchester, we went to a different station and bought tickets online. We didn't do this on the outbound journey, as like I said we wanted to buy a duo. I had never heard of this until the train lady sold it to us previously. Also, as we arrived at the station the train was in, about to depart, so we just jped on. No time to buy a ticket at the machine.

 

[island]

To avoid prosecution for what?

Joining a train without a ticket at a station at which ticketing facilities were available.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2023 ==

we wanted to buy tickets on the train, as we couldn't do so we were asking to purchase at our 1st opportunity

Your first opportunity was the ticket machine at Westhougton.

 

[littlevix]

Westhoughton station (operated by Northern) doesn't have a ticket office. It just has a card only TVM on each platform. Key questions. Are they capable of issuing 'Duo' tickets? And is any penalty signage compliant?

I've never heard of a duo before, as far as I was aware it was only able to be bought on the train. I've certainly not seen any penalty signage at the station, but I'll go check. Imo there should be large, obvious, signs telling you that you need to buy before you travel.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2023 ==

My advice is to pay up and learn a lesson that being abusive to staff will always result in the worst possible outcome. Several staff and police wandered over to the altercation which tells its own story.

Even if the ticketing matter is dropped, Northern have noted the swearing/abuse and will often proceed with a separate Bylaw prosecution for that, for their own PR.

He was in no way "abusive". He voiced his displeasure at the way he was spoken to and how he was treated. Yes, he swore, but not at the guy, just "it's a effing joke", "I'm not effing paying a fine", etc. There was no threats made and no abuse, just frustration and annoyance.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2023 ==

Joining a train without a ticket at a station at which ticketing facilities were available.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2023 ==


Your first opportunity was the ticket machine at Westhougton.

As far as I was aware we could only buy a duo on the train, which is the ticket we wanted. We aren't seasoned rail travellers and had no idea you had to "buy before you travel". The trains at Westhoughton are every hour. As we arrived at the station the train was there,so we jumped on. If I had known I had to buy before I travelled, or at least before I get to my destination, I would have purchased on my phone, but I didn't think it would be an issue for me to pay cash at Manchester.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

And is any penalty signage compliant?

I've certainly not seen any penalty signage at the station, but I'll go check. Imo there should be large, obvious, signs telling you that you need to buy before you travel.

Unfortunately @Mcr Warrior introduced a red herring here, and checking the signage won't help you.

Had you been charged a specific sort of penalty called a 'Penalty Fare' there are stringent rules that should be followed by the railway - and from time to time they get it wrong over matters such as the signs which should be displayed at the station.

But what your husband is facing is what the Northern Railway call a 'Fixed Penalty'. It's not entirely clear what this actually is (most people would call it an out of court settlement in that you are paying Northern for the certainty that they will not take action against you in the criminal courts), but it certainly is not a Penalty Fare - and so the specific rules for Penalty Fares don't apply.

 

[Mzzzs]

Duo tickets are available on the Northern app or website.

Duo tickets

Northern | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

www.northernrailway.co.uk

 

[AlterEgo]

He was in no way "abusive". He voiced his displeasure at the way he was spoken to and how he was treated. Yes, he swore, but not at the guy, just "it's a effing joke", "I'm not effing paying a fine", etc. There was no threats made and no abuse, just frustration and annoyance.

So he shouted, swore at them, told them it was a f*cking joke, and wasn't paying a f*cking fine, and told the inspector that he hoped karma came back to bite him. If you don't think that's abusive then you have a pretty warped perception of how to treat other people. I'm sure you wouldn't like to be spoken to like that at work and it's not surprising that other staff and the police decided to come and see what was happening.

Pay the fixed penalty and chalk it up to experience, and tell your partner not to be such an unpleasant boor. Northern will take him to court for that sort of behaviour, and win, because it is actually a criminal offence under the Bylaws:

6. Unacceptable behaviour​

No person shall:

1. use any threatening, abusive, obscene or offensive language on the railway
2. behave in a disorderly, indecent or offensive manner on the railway

Train companies make a big deal of abusive behaviour from passengers and may seek to publicise convictions in the press, too.

 

[skyhigh]

Yes, he swore, but not at the guy, just "it's a effing joke", "I'm not effing paying a fine", etc.

Whereas the staff member may have felt those statements were directed at him. Would the bodycam footage support that?

From what you're saying they would easily make a case under Byelaw 6 as quoted above.

Pay what they're asking and chalk it up to experience. If you feel hard done by then don't travel by train in the future and give your custom to either a bus or car park operator instead.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2023 ==

He told the rail guy he hopes karma will come back to him and his family, but he didn't threaten anybody at all.

That sounds like a threat to me.

 

[JBuchananGB]

Northern Duo tickets are also available at Northern TVMs. I investigated this a few weeks ago. You have to specify that you are buying tickets for 2 passengers, and then it presents the Duo ticket as an option.

 

[island]

I've never heard of a duo before

If you've never heard of it, how did you know you wanted to buy one?

, as far as I was aware it was only able to be bought on the train.

Unfortunately you are incorrect in that respect.

I've certainly not seen any penalty signage at the station, but I'll go check

This is a red-herring as a Penalty Fare has not been issued.

. Imo there should be large, obvious, signs telling you that you need to buy before you travel.

There are at most stations.

He was in no way "abusive". He voiced his displeasure at the way he was spoken to and how he was treated. Yes, he swore, but not at the guy, just "it's a effing joke", "I'm not effing paying a fine", etc. There was no threats made and no abuse, just frustration and annoyance.

Shouting and swearing is absolutely "abusive" and "obscene". As mentioned in post 21 it's a criminal offence to use threatening, abusive, indecent, or obscene language on the railway. It makes no difference whether the language was directed at a person, at a policy, at the railway in general, or none of the above. Rail staff have a right to go about their jobs and to be treated politely and with respect.

As far as I was aware we could only buy a duo on the train, which is the ticket we wanted. We aren't seasoned rail travellers and had no idea you had to "buy before you travel".

Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

The trains at Westhoughton are every hour. As we arrived at the station the train was there,so we jumped on.

Here we get to the fact of the matter which is that you didn't allow enough time to purchase a ticket before travel, as you're legally obligated to do.

If I had known I had to buy before I travelled, or at least before I get to my destination, I would have purchased on my phone, but I didn't think it would be an issue for me to pay cash at Manchester.

You'll know for next time, but for now, my advice for your husband is that he needs to wind his neck in and cough up the requested settlement amount because if it's not paid, he is very likely to end up with a court date and quite possibly a criminal record.

 

[littlevix]

So he shouted, swore at them, told them it was a f*cking joke, and wasn't paying a f*cking fine, and told the inspector that he hoped karma came back to bite him. If you don't think that's abusive then you have a pretty warped perception of how to treat other people. I'm sure you wouldn't like to be spoken to like that at work and it's not surprising that other staff and the police decided to come and see what was happening.

Pay the fixed penalty and chalk it up to experience, and tell your partner not to be such an unpleasant boor. Northern will take him to court for that sort of behaviour, and win, because it is actually a criminal offence under the Bylaws:

6. Unacceptable behaviour​

No person shall:

1. use any threatening, abusive, obscene or offensive language on the railway
2. behave in a disorderly, indecent or offensive manner on the railway

Train companies make a big deal of abusive behaviour from passengers and may seek to publicise convictions in the press, too.

I worked in a call centre for years. If people swear, at the situation, ie "this is f@cking joke, or are you f@cking serious" then I didn't class that ad abusive. I was the "face" of the company and people were frustrated. If they swore directly at me, ie "listen you f@cking beatch", etc, then yes, I'd say that's abusive. Swearing and displaying frustration or anger, isn't abusive. He didn't abuse the staff member at any time. He didn't call him names or anything. So, yes, I don't think that's abuse. As a different person commented, behaviour which is classed as abusive is very different from each person's perspective.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2023 ==

If you've never heard of it, how did you know you wanted to buy one?

Unfortunately you are incorrect in that respect.

This is a red-herring as a Penalty Fare has not been issued.

There are at most stations.

Shouting and swearing is absolutely "abusive" and "obscene". As mentioned in post 21 it's a criminal offence to use threatening, abusive, indecent, or obscene language on the railway. It makes no difference whether the language was directed at a person, at a policy, at the railway in general, or none of the above. Rail staff have a right to go about their jobs and to be treated politely and with respect.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Here we get to the fact of the matter which is that you didn't allow enough time to purchase a ticket before travel, as you're legally obligated to do.

You'll know for next time, but for now, my advice for your husband is that he needs to wind his neck in and cough up the requested settlement amount because if it's not paid, he is very likely to end up with a court date and quite possibly a criminal record.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2023 ==

I worked in a call centre for years. If people swear, at the situation, ie "this is f@cking joke, or are you f@cking serious" then I didn't class that ad abusive. I was the "face" of the company and people were frustrated. If they swore directly at me, ie "listen you f@cking beatch", etc, then yes, I'd say that's abusive. Swearing and displaying frustration or anger, isn't abusive. He didn't abuse the staff member at any time. He didn't call him names or anything. So, yes, I don't think that's abuse. As a different person commented, behaviour which is classed as abusive is very different from each person's perspective.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2023 ==

I knew about it because the lady on the train a few weeks prior, sold it to us. Prior to that I would have just bought 2 returns. If you aren't a regular train passenger and only have cash, then how are you supposed to purchase a ticket?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2023 ==

Taking everything you say at face value, the railway have shot themselves in the foot if they don't release the video footage to you if they plan to go to court. They must present all evidence to you pre-trial, if they don't, the court isn't going to look favourably upon them. But even a vaguely competent in their prosecutions department will know this.
It might be this video no longer exists for whatever reason, and they're trying to bluff their way. But it's unlikely to succeed in court without it, as it's then simply "he said, you said".
Potentially, you might have "got away" with it as the video showed the officier saying you wouldn't get fined. But it doesn't show him saying to your husband, so they're after him for the fare evasion.
But, what we really need is to see the paperwork as above. Retract your details, reference number, etc and post it, so we can see what the railway is actually doing.
On a side note, you say you simply paid the fare due. How much was this? An adult, single, return or duo fare? How did you return the day you were stopped?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2023 ==


Yes. But did the OP want to pay cash?

Yes,I wanted to pay cash.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2023 ==

Taking everything you say at face value, the railway have shot themselves in the foot if they don't release the video footage to you if they plan to go to court. They must present all evidence to you pre-trial, if they don't, the court isn't going to look favourably upon them. But even a vaguely competent in their prosecutions department will know this.
It might be this video no longer exists for whatever reason, and they're trying to bluff their way. But it's unlikely to succeed in court without it, as it's then simply "he said, you said".
Potentially, you might have "got away" with it as the video showed the officier saying you wouldn't get fined. But it doesn't show him saying to your husband, so they're after him for the fare evasion.
But, what we really need is to see the paperwork as above. Retract your details, reference number, etc and post it, so we can see what the railway is actually doing.
On a side note, you say you simply paid the fare due. How much was this? An adult, single, return or duo fare? How did you return the day you were stopped?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2023 ==


Yes. But did the OP want to pay cash?

We bought a ticket at a machine, that took cash, for our return.

 

[skyhigh]

So, yes, I don't think that's abuse.

Northern have made in clear in the screenshot that you've attached that they will not enter into any further discussion and your option is to pay or argue your side in court. So essentially that is now your choice - but for a conviction to be secured all that needs to be proved is that to a reasonable person the behaviour was "disorderly, indecent or offensive" - and I think stating that you "hope karma comes back on you and your family" would fail that.

Your options are pay the £100 and close the matter, or go to court. It's as simple as that. Arguments over signage and not knowing the rules about tickets are irrelevant if the issue they're prosecuting is the language and the behaviour.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

I think it maybe help if the OP can provide more info on this fixed penalty, I'm a bit dubious about it, just from what has been discussed I have a feeling it maybe not be an out of court settlement and sounds more like a fixed penalty notice for public order etc which if that's the case the op's partner may actually want to fight it etc better to be safe and see exactly what has actually been offered

 

[skyhigh]

I think it maybe help if the OP can provide more info on this fixed penalty, I'm a bit dubious about it, just from what has been discussed I have a feeling it maybe not be an out of court settlement and sounds more like a fixed penalty notice for public order etc which if that's the case the op's partner may actually want to fight it etc better to be safe and see exactly what has actually been offered

It is the wording Northern use.

It's clear from the correspondence upthread that this 'fixed penalty' is issued by Northern, and they don't issue 'fines' (in the specific legal sense) for public order.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2023 ==

A Penalty Notice for Disorder (PND) is also either £50 or £80. As far as I can see it is clear that this is a settlement offer from Northern.

 

[KirkstallOne]

While I would agree that generalised swearing is not always abuse or offensive (in my eyes) wishing karma to come back on the employee and their family has clearly crossed a line.

 

[island]

I knew about it because the lady on the train a few weeks prior, sold it to us. Prior to that I would have just bought 2 returns. If you aren't a regular train passenger and only have cash, then how are you supposed to purchase a ticket?

The process to follow in this circumstance with Northern is to obtain a Promise to Pay voucher from the ticket machine, which verifies your intent to pay in cash and confirms the station where you joined the train. Notices in the station explain this.