Fixed penalty advice very much needed.

[p_878787]

Hello!

I'm hoping someone could offer some advice on a recent fine that I've received.

I recently got the train at Ashton Under Lyne to Manchester Victoria, which is about 9 minutes and costs approx £3.50. As I got to the station my train was already on the platform, and so I hurried to the ticket office - it was open, but there was no one there to sell me a ticket, and there was a huge queue for the machine. At this point I got on the train and assumed I'd be able to buy a ticket on the train, though the conductor didn't come round checking tickets so I wasn't able to, so I assumed I could then just buy a ticket at Victoria station, as I always do this from Stalybridge train station.

When I arrived I was told I wasn't able to do this as I came from Ashton Under Lyne. The guy took down my details and I absolutely remember him saying something to the effect of "you'll receive a letter within 5 days, which will contain details of how to pay the full fare of £3.50. If you don't reply within a certain time frame you will get an £80 fine".

Well, no letter ever arrived until this morning when I received a letter explaining I have a fine of £80 plus the £3.50, which was a huge shock as I need to pay it within 14 days. What makes it worse is that there doesn't appear to be a phone number where I can call someone about this to explain the situation.

Does anyone know if the guy was correct in telling me I would first receive a letter to pay just the full fair? If anyone has been in a similar situation I'd appreciate some advice of what to do next, as an £80 fine is absolutely not ideal at the moment.

 

[bb21]

The problem you are facing is that by bypassing a clear opportunity to pay, ie. the ticket office at Ashton, you are in contravention of the Railway Byelaws, at the minimum. AIUI, Northern are having a crackdown on people not paying before boarding where facilities exist, and are requesting £80 as a form of settlement, instead of threatening to take the offenders to court, where if your case is brought under the Railway Byelaws, you will have no defence and chances are you will end up with a bigger penalty in the form of a fine.

I make no judgement on whether what they are doing is moral, as I understand that people in some areas have habitually paid onboard for many years, but the reality is that as the law stands, you must purchase a ticket before boarding where opportunities exist. Arriving late at the station is not a valid excuse not to fulfil that obligation. I understand that Northern embarked on a publicity campaign a while ago and there are posters at stations advising passengers of their obligations.

My advice therefore is to pay it. If you really wished, you could give them a ring and explain your situation in the hope that they will drop it, but the chance of that happening is very low.

 

[Chapeltom]

Hello!

I'm hoping someone could offer some advice on a recent fine that I've received.

I recently got the train at Ashton Under Lyne to Manchester Victoria, which is about 9 minutes and costs approx £3.50. As I got to the station my train was already on the platform, and so I hurried to the ticket office - it was open, but there was no one there to sell me a ticket, and there was a huge queue for the machine. At this point I got on the train and assumed I'd be able to buy a ticket on the train, though the conductor didn't come round checking tickets so I wasn't able to, so I assumed I could then just buy a ticket at Victoria station, as I always do this from Stalybridge train station.

When I arrived I was told I wasn't able to do this as I came from Ashton Under Lyne. The guy took down my details and I absolutely remember him saying something to the effect of "you'll receive a letter within 5 days, which will contain details of how to pay the full fare of £3.50. If you don't reply within a certain time frame you will get an £80 fine".

Well, no letter ever arrived until this morning when I received a letter explaining I have a fine of £80 plus the £3.50, which was a huge shock as I need to pay it within 14 days. What makes it worse is that there doesn't appear to be a phone number where I can call someone about this to explain the situation.

Does anyone know if the guy was correct in telling me I would first receive a letter to pay just the full fair? If anyone has been in a similar situation I'd appreciate some advice of what to do next, as an £80 fine is absolutely not ideal at the moment.

Unfortunately, by jumping straight on the train and not taking the opportunity to wait for the machine to become available you have committed an offence. Being given a demand for £80 plus the full fare of £3.50 is almost standard proceedure for failure to purchase at your origin where there were facilities available (note I am refering to standard proceedure for Northern here)

My advice is to pay what is demanded within 14 days, otherwise Northern will take you take to court, where you would lose. Sorry if it isn't what you wanted to hear.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

The £80 penalty or fine is Northern Rail's standard procedure for dealing with passengers found travelling without a ticket where there was an open booking office and/or working ticket selling machine. As you are probably already aware, it is a Criminal Offence to travel without a ticket and so this penalty is perhaps a lesser inconvenience than the technically possible route of legal proceedings.

There may be some excuse related to an exceptionally long queue at the ticket machine, but unless it was known about and quantified, then I wouldn't advise becoming too interested in making a challenge.

The suggestion that you would simply be allowed to pay the fare after the event seems unlikely to me, for 2 reasosns. I wonder if there might have been a misunderstanding? It's possible, but unlikely, otherwise the fare would simply have been taken from you there and then.

 

[p_878787]

Thanks for the replies and advice everyone - I'll try and give them a ring on Monday to see if there's anything they can do, but I expect I'll just end up paying the fine and making sure this never happens again!

 

[reb0118]

........and making sure this never happens again!

Which is the result Northern are looking for.

I know there is a bit of hostility to Northern's policy but I feel that they are successfully steering a middle ground. Too much revenue is being lost to do nothing about it but do we really want them to go down the "prosecute" every misdemeaor route a la FCC?

 

[scotsman]

Which is the result Northern are looking for.

I know there is a bit of hostility to Northern's policy but I feel that they are successfully steering a middle ground. Too much revenue is being lost to do nothing about it but do we really want them to go down the "prosecute" every misdemeaor route a la FCC?

Or, indeed, like Northern were previously keen to do?

Have you seen their 'Get A Ticket' campaign? Fantastic.

 

[yorkie]

Or, indeed, like Northern were previously keen to do?

Have you seen their 'Get A Ticket' campaign? Fantastic.

Their restaurant analogy doesn't apply to the OP's plight. If the restaurant analogy was applied, the OP would simply have been asked to pay the appropriate fare.

Other than amusement purposes, I don't think any analogies are actually helpful.

 

[jon0844]

I know there is a bit of hostility to Northern's policy but I feel that they are successfully steering a middle ground. Too much revenue is being lost to do nothing about it but do we really want them to go down the "prosecute" every misdemeaor route a la FCC?

FCC doesn't go to court often either does it? It's just like Northern in that it now uses out of court settlements to avoid court AND get more money than a penalty fare.

 

[yorkie]

FCC doesn't go to court often either does it? It's just like Northern in that it now uses out of court settlements to avoid court AND get more money than a penalty fare.

FCC seem very willing to settle. I can't remember the last dispute I read about where they refused to settle.

Their approaches are very different, and FCC will vary the amount rather more than Northern, who nearly always ask for £80.

 

[TEW]

FCC doesn't go to court often either does it? It's just like Northern in that it now uses out of court settlements to avoid court AND get more money than a penalty fare.

Do any TOCs actually favour court? In the vast majority of cases I'd imagine an out of court settlement is in the best interests of the TOC.

 

[najaB]

Do any TOCs actually favour court? In the vast majority of cases I'd imagine an out of court settlement is in the best interests of the TOC.

It definitely is easier and more straightforward for them and, more importantly, carries less risk. Each out of court settlement is independent of the others and so the company is free to seek what they can reasonably get. If, instead, they went through the courts the amount of the settlement would be set by a judge and there's always the chance that they may lose and thereby have a precedent set that then stops them going after similar cases in future.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . . If, instead, they went through the courts the amount of the settlement would be set by a judge and there's always the chance that they may lose and thereby have a precedent set that then stops them going after similar cases in future.

If, as you put it, "they went through the courts", then, in England & Wales, the matter would be heard in a Magistrates Court, where the penalty would be set by the Magistrates (or exceptionally a District Judge) and advised by the Clerk following sentencing guidelines; there is no precedent set by the decisions of the Magistrates Courts. Only if a Railway Company were unsuccessful in a Magistrates Court, and they then applied for leave to Appeal to a higher Court which leave was granted, could there be any prospect of a precedent. Only in such a Higher Court could a precedent in law be created, but even that would be confined to the ratio decidendi, clarifying the point of Law and the reasoning for reaching the decision based on the particular facts of the matter. This follows the strict heirarchy of Courts and their decisions and the scope of 'Judicial precedent'. And within Railway Law we even have the instance where the House of Lords has overturned its own precedent of principle, in Herrington v British Railways Board [1972]. The 'risk' you refer to simply does not exist.
The actual 'risk' are more likely to be the time and cost of bringing the Evidence forward, in the form of Witness Statements and where contested, bringing Witnesses to Court to be cross examined and therefore taken off front line duties for a day.

In Scotland, the application of the hierarchy of the Courts to their decisions is more convoluted, where the Common Law principles of precedent are more pervasive, but a Sheriff Court or JP would not be bound by the finding of another Sheriff. Even the High Court of Justiciary is not always bound by its own prior decisions in a Criminal Appeal.
Anyway, we don't see Railway ticketing irrregularities appearing in the Scottish Courts, and 878787's request for assistance is clearly an English matter.

As it is, there is already adequate Case Law (other precedents) to support prosecutions for travel without a ticket.

 

[najaB]

Thanks for the clarification and expansion of the basic point I was making: in the same way that it's best for someone caught foul of the ticketing legislation to seek an out of court settlement (advice that you have provided any number of times), it can also be better for the TOC for the same reasons: with an out of court settlement the overall outcome and the amount of any payment is within the TOC's control, whereas it is not if they proceed through the courts.

I do, however, stand by my comment that there is a risk (albeit small given that neither party is likely to see the case all the way through to the Court of Appeal or Supreme Court) that a successfully defended prosecution could be cited as precedent in a later case - that is, after all, how case law works. Hence the likelihood of achieving an out of court settlement is more likely when the case against the defendant is weak, and highly unlikely when it's a 'slam dunk'.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I do, however, stand by my comment that there is a risk (albeit small given that neither party is likely to see the case all the way through to the Court of Appeal or Supreme Court) that a successfully defended prosecution could be cited as precedent in a later case . . . .

There is NO risk of the reasoning in a successfully defended prosecution becoming a precedent, UNLESS the Railway Company subsequently chose to Appeal the decision - the risk does not arise from bringing about a prosecution (as opposed to accepting an out of court settlement), which was the point you were attempting to justify.

 

[SussexMan]

...The guy took down my details and I absolutely remember him saying something to the effect of "you'll receive a letter within 5 days, which will contain details of how to pay the full fare of £3.50. If you don't reply within a certain time frame you will get an £80 fine".

...

Does anyone know if the guy was correct in telling me I would first receive a letter to pay just the full fair? If anyone has been in a similar situation I'd appreciate some advice of what to do next, as an £80 fine is absolutely not ideal at the moment.

The suggestion that you would simply be allowed to pay the fare after the event seems unlikely to me, for 2 reasosns. I wonder if there might have been a misunderstanding? It's possible, but unlikely, otherwise the fare would simply have been taken from you there and then.

But Northern's website states:

If you are stopped by a revenue officer, in most cases you have 21 days to pay the value of the ticket for the journey you made. Failing to pay this will result in an £80 fixed penalty.

Or have I missed something?

 

[Moonshot]

Hello!

I'm hoping someone could offer some advice on a recent fine that I've received.

I recently got the train at Ashton Under Lyne to Manchester Victoria, which is about 9 minutes and costs approx £3.50. As I got to the station my train was already on the platform, and so I hurried to the ticket office - it was open, but there was no one there to sell me a ticket, and there was a huge queue for the machine. At this point I got on the train and assumed I'd be able to buy a ticket on the train, though the conductor didn't come round checking tickets so I wasn't able to, so I assumed I could then just buy a ticket at Victoria station, as I always do this from Stalybridge train station.

When I arrived I was told I wasn't able to do this as I came from Ashton Under Lyne. The guy took down my details and I absolutely remember him saying something to the effect of "you'll receive a letter within 5 days, which will contain details of how to pay the full fare of £3.50. If you don't reply within a certain time frame you will get an £80 fine".

Well, no letter ever arrived until this morning when I received a letter explaining I have a fine of £80 plus the £3.50, which was a huge shock as I need to pay it within 14 days. What makes it worse is that there doesn't appear to be a phone number where I can call someone about this to explain the situation.

Does anyone know if the guy was correct in telling me I would first receive a letter to pay just the full fair? If anyone has been in a similar situation I'd appreciate some advice of what to do next, as an £80 fine is absolutely not ideal at the moment.

Would this thread exist if instead of travelling to Manchester, you actually caught the train in the opposite direction and got off at Mossley where there are no barrier staff? If not, can you see why Northern are keen on this?

 

[neilmc]

Would this thread exist if Northern weren't so ****less and ensured that everyone had a chance to purchase a ticket within a reasonable time by ensuring that a ticket office is actually manned by someone selling tickets at the times it is supposed to be open? (That is, if the OP's allegation for that date is true of course).

It occurs to me it would make for a very nice sting to deliberately leave a ticket office unmanned at a busy period, thus guaranteeing unacceptably long queues at the ticket machine, and then stinging everyone who lost patience and in danger of missing trains with £80 "fines" when they arrive in the city centre. After all, if you can garner multiple fees of £80 for providing a BAD service why be bothered to provide a good one?

And why pay for the requisite numbers of professional railwaymen when you can hire in gangs of bouncers daylighting from their night club jobs to intimidate passengers at the exits instead?

 

[Moonshot]

Would this thread exist if Northern weren't so ****less and ensured that everyone had a chance to purchase a ticket within a reasonable time by ensuring that a ticket office is actually manned by someone selling tickets at the times it is supposed to be open? (That is, if the OP's allegation for that date is true of course).

It occurs to me it would make for a very nice sting to deliberately leave a ticket office unmanned at a busy period, thus guaranteeing unacceptably long queues at the ticket machine, and then stinging everyone who lost patience and in danger of missing trains with £80 "fines" when they arrive in the city centre. After all, if you can garner multiple fees of £80 for providing a BAD service why be bothered to provide a good one?

And why pay for the requisite numbers of professional railwaymen when you can hire in gangs of bouncers daylighting from their night club jobs to intimidate passengers at the exits instead?

ah right.......and what do you say to the passenger who arrives at the station less than 30 seconds before train is due to depart?

 

[island]

"You should have planned better and arrived earlier."

 

[Haywain]

To quote the OP:

As I got to the station my train was already on the platform, and so I hurried to the ticket office - it was open, but there was no one there to sell me a ticket, and there was a huge queue for the machine. At this point I got on the train

So just how long do trains stop at Ashton for? Are there any services which terminate/start there? If not, the OP can't have spent more than a second or two considering the possibility of buying a ticket at the 'unmanned' ticket ofice.

 

[anme]

Regarding the issue of closed ticket offices and long queues... Many people rely on trains to get them to work and the railways benefit enormously from this. Despite the holier than thou attitudes we sometimes see here, missing a train because there was a long queue to buy tickets can have serious consequences for an individual and their employer. A passenger may be faced with a very awkward dilemma in the event of an unreasonably long queue and a train arriving shortly, and in that situation I have a lot of sympathy with them. I hope the railways will treat such people with a high degree of understanding.

This post does not constitute legal advice, and I strongly advise you to buy a ticket before boarding whenever there are facilities to do so.

 

[Flamingo]

It's funny, but I never hear anybody saying "I was running late" as an excuse when travelling from barriered stations, but will hear it from stations with a five-minute service (Newport-Cardiff, Paddington-Reading) when going off an unbarriered platform. A large number of these passengers do not appear to be traveling to work, indeed passengers travelling to work usually have season tickets.

I'm not saying queues don't happen, but at peak times a queue at the booking office can be expected, in the same way as the traffic to the station will be busier. People need to factor that into their planning, not make it everybody else's fault.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It occurs to me it would make for a very nice sting to deliberately leave a ticket office unmanned at a busy period, thus guaranteeing unacceptably long queues at the ticket machine, and then stinging everyone who lost patience and in danger of missing trains with £80 "fines" when they arrive in the city centre. After all, if you can garner multiple fees of £80 for providing a BAD service why be bothered to provide a good one?

Indeed. The regulated Penalty Fare scheme sets TOCs targets about queue times and ticket office availability. If they don't meet those targets, DafT can prevent them issuing Penalty Fares. Northern used to use the regulated Penalty Fare scheme in West Yorkshire, but abandoned it as being too much like hard work.

The pretend scheme that Northern now uses has no such obligation, given that it's based on a Byelaw that's strict liability. They can also choose to charge any amount they want, and it need bear no relation to the actual fare due. They also don't have to pay for an appeals service.

I cannot for the life of me understand why any TOC would persist with the regulated scheme, with its costly obligations, given that Serco have been allowed to make it up as they go along.

I can't help but wonder what the response at Victoria would have been if the OP had wanted to buy a ticket not available from a TVM...

 

[reb0118]

It's funny, but I never hear anybody saying "I was running late" as an excuse when travelling from barriered stations,........

Quite, most trains at the Waverley leave from barriered platforms but a few don't, one of these being the North Berwick service. Yesterday, as I was spare, my colleague ask me to assist him in performing an ad hoc barrier for his North Berwick. Late comers were arriving at least 40 mins prior to the advertised departure time of the train sans billet!

I am sure that had the guard waited until after departure of his train to commence his ticket check that most of those without tickets would have trotted out the excuse that they were running late and crucially as the first stop was only 6 minutes away & at short intervals thereafter a significant minority would have avoided their fares.

As an aside quite a few passengers held "declined cards". Some of these mysteriously found cash (that would not have appeared had they been able to board the train) the others were politely but firmly sent back to the ticket office

 

[northwichcat]

But Northern's website states:



Or have I missed something?

One thing Northern agreed with TfGM is on certain lines, where posters clearly advertise it, people caught travelling ticket-less on a second occasion will be fined £80 without being given a chance to pay the fare first.