fixed-formation sets

[popeter45]

so reading RIS-2453-RST (as you do) i see as well a high speed multiple-units the 800 range is also allocated for "fixed-formation sets" that are clearly differentiated from multiple-units
would this mean Loco Hauled Coaching stock like the Mark 5a's that are fixed formation and need depo time to reform need to be allocated 8XX numbers?

 

[JonathanH]

so reading RIS-2453-RST (as you do) i see as well a high speed multiple-units the 800 range is also allocated for "fixed-formation sets" that are clearly differentiated from multiple-units
would this mean Loco Hauled Coaching stock like the Mark 5a's that are fixed formation and need depo time to reform need to be allocated 8XX numbers?

No, the Mark 5a carriages aren't self powered and don't have cabs at both ends (or neither) so appears that they don't go under the 8xx series. They are known as TP01-TP13 in the usual sequence for coaching sets. The fact that they need to go to a depot for decoupling does not appear to have any bearing.

It appears that they come under 'fixed formation trailer vehicles' in the standard rather than 'fixed-formation sets'.

 

[TRAX]

Do unpowered carriages like the Mk4 and 5 for example fall into TOPS categorisation in some way ?

 

[hexagon789]

so reading RIS-2453-RST (as you do) i see as well a high speed multiple-units the 800 range is also allocated for "fixed-formation sets" that are clearly differentiated from multiple-units
would this mean Loco Hauled Coaching stock like the Mark 5a's that are fixed formation and need depo time to reform need to be allocated 8XX numbers?

The Mk5s are more fixed than say Mk2 and 3 stock, they have permanent couplers between coaches so can only be separated for maintenance not to reform sets as such.

Do unpowered carriages like the Mk4 and 5 for example fall into TOPS categorisation in some way ?

I know that at least up to the Mk4s were given TOPS four-digit alphanumeric codings, possibly Mk5s have been incorporated as well.

A Mk4 TOE (Tourist Open End) is rendered as AI2J for instance.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

A Mk4 TOE (Tourist Open End) is rendered as AI2J for instance.

They have conventional TOPS numbers (which can be found in a matrix at http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/class+91).

103xx is the buffet, 112xx is the first class vehicle with disabled space, 113xx is a normal first class vehicle and 114xx are the first class vehicles which previously had a smoking compartment fitted. 123xx is the standard class vehicle with disabled space, 124xx are the normal standard class vehicles and 125xx are the standard class buffer fitted end vehicles with no gangway on one end. 822xx are the driving van trailers.

The formation is usually 1 x 822xx, 1 x 114xx, 1 x 113xx, 1 x 112xx, 1 x 103xx, 1 x 123xx, 3 x 124xx and 1 x 125xx.

 

[swt_passenger]

Do unpowered carriages like the Mk4 and 5 for example fall into TOPS categorisation in some way ?

All carriages have a unique vehicle number, and that is still a part of TOPS? (Mentioned on Page 21 of the linked document.) Just like EMU/DMU vehicles have a unique number in TOPS, as well as their parent set number.

 

[hexagon789]

They have conventional TOPS numbers (which can be found in a matrix at http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/class+91).

103xx is the buffet, 112xx is the first class vehicle with disabled space, 113xx is a normal first class vehicle and 114xx are the first class vehicles which previously had a smoking compartment fitted. 123xx is the standard class vehicle with disabled space, 124xx are the normal standard class vehicles and 125xx are the standard class buffer fitted end vehicles with no gangway on one end. 822xx are the driving van trailers.

The formation is usually 1 x 822xx, 1 x 114xx, 1 x 113xx, 1 x 112xx, 1 x 103xx, 1 x 123xx, 3 x 124xx and 1 x 125xx.

The question asked about categorisation rather than numbering so I read that as meaning sorted into types which the alphanumeric codes describe rather than the number ranges used.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

The question asked about categorisation rather than numbering so I read that as meaning sorted into types which the alphanumeric codes describe rather than the number ranges used.

I read it as the person wondering if un-powered vehicles are on TOPS.

 

[rebmcr]

It appears that they come under 'fixed formation trailer vehicles' in the standard rather than 'fixed-formation sets'.

So "fixed-formation set" would refer to an HST (in its Class 254 guise) and pretty much nothing else past or present?

 

[JonathanH]

So "fixed-formation set" would refer to an HST and pretty much nothing else past or present?

Er, no, they come under 'HST vehicles' and have traditional coaching stock set descriptions eg GW01.

The OP appears to be asking why the Mk 5a sets are numbered TP01-TP13 and have hauled coaching stock numbers as opposed to being, for example, 899001-899013 with 8xxxxx vehicle numbers, much in the manner that the Gatwick Express Mk2 sets were classified as class 488/2 and 488/3.

 

[popeter45]

Er, no, they come under 'HST vehicles'.

The OP appears to be asking why the Mk 5a sets are numbered TP01-TP13 and have hauled coaching stock numbers as opposed to being, for example 899001-899013 with 8xxxxx vehicle numbers, much in the manner that the Gatwick Express Mk2 sets were classified as class 488/2 and 488/3.

correct
maybe rather than the Carriages being in the 800 range maybe like with the HST's make the 68+Mark 5a's as a 8XX unit

 

[JonathanH]

correct
maybe rather than the Carriages being in the 800 range maybe like with the HST's make the 68+Mark 5a's as 8XX unit

No, the 68 wouldn't be part of the unit - it would just be the coaches but clearly this isn't the approach followed. I'm not sure what you would do with carriage 12814.

 

[XAM2175]

The wording of Table 7 (page 33) of the standard - where TOPS unit numbers in the 800nnn to 899nnn range are allocated to High-speed multiple unit / fixed formation sets - is prospective. I believe it's intended to cover any potential future HST-style push-pull sets, but that's purely my speculation.

The allocation rules are also not applied retrospectively; otherwise there would be an argument for reclassifying current Classes 390 and 395 into the 800s.

The TPxx-style designators for current fixed-formation sets are a TOPS convenience and are outside the scope of the RIS-2453-RST standard, while the numbers for the individual vehicles inside the set are covered by Tables 4, 5, and 6 (pages 29, 31, and 32).

Er, no, they come under 'HST vehicles' and have traditional coaching stock set descriptions eg GW01.

There is some inconsistency with HSTs - the standard holds that they're treated as DMUs for the purposes of numbering and registration, and there's a note (A.1.3) excluding HST powercars from the diesel locomotive numbering range, but a poster in an earlier thread on the matter says they they appear in R2 (the national vehicle register) as diesel locomotives.

 

[hexagon789]

I read it as the person wondering if un-powered vehicles are on TOPS.

I can kind of see that now, I think I just read it differently initially.

So "fixed-formation set" would refer to an HST (in its Class 254 guise) and pretty much nothing else past or present?

I think one could argue InterCity 225 sets are fixed-formation, at least they are in passenger service