Five-car Overground Class 378's

[455driver]

So how are the TMs geared to the axles?

Every other train in the Country is fitted with one TM per axle, by what you are saying the 378s have 3 TMs per motor coach (as they have 1 motor bogie and 1 trailer bogie that means 3 traction motors for 2 axles) so how are they geared/ fitted?

 

[jopsuk]

I've got a vague recollection of a diagram that showed one bogie with two motors driving an axle each and one bogie with a single motor powering one axle and the other one unpowered.

 

[455driver]

That could lead to a derailment of the unpowered axle if true.

That would also be a unique situation.

 

[Skoodle]

On the DMOS the leading bogie has one TM on the second axle and the rear bogie has a TM on each axle. I have my training diagrams at home, will fish them out later.

 

[notadriver]

In the DMOS vehicle the leading bogie has one motor and the trailing bogie has two motors. This is the arrangement in the MOS vehicle as well. There are 9 motors per 4 car unit each rated at 200KW. The 5 car 376s are

DMOS-MOS-TOS-MOS-DMOS

Based on that it is likely that the 5th vehicle will be motorised and have 3 motors to cope with both the very heavy loads at peak hours and very steep gradients up to 1 in 30.

 

[SF-02]

I was wondering on the thread about TfL possibly taking over Southeastern metro routes whether more class 376 cars could be built? Are they that different from 378? I've read that the 378 are derived from them. If they could then 5 car 376 could become 6 car to capitalise on the platform extensions and power upgrades going on at the moment for 12 car networkers.

 

[swt_passenger]

Building additional cars for any EMU or DMU is almost always going to be possible from an engineering point of view - but the decision simply comes down to economics. What they don't want to end up with is a situation where the extra cars will only have a relatively short life in comparison before the rest of the unit is life expired.

As 378s are at the start of their life the differences will be minimal, it may not be seen the same way in the case of 376s.

 

[jopsuk]

There are LU C-Stock trailers that are in that situation aren't there? Twenty odd years newer than the rest of the train they're in, but will be scrapped at the same time?

 

[D365]

Several were built after the 7/7 attack, C08 IIRC... I heard 19+ new 1995TS will be needed for the Northern split and NLE/Battersea, existing stock will be more than 20 years old by then. Unless Evo is ordered for one of the lines, perhaps.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Several were built after the 7/7 attack, C08 IIRC...

Two units - and in both cases it was the trailer car and in both cases the original underframes were re-used.

The units are 5606 ( formerly unit 5505 ) and 5734 ( formerly unit 5713 ).

 

[mrmartin]

This can't come soon enough. The NLL in particular is becoming farcical. At 11am today the train was packed, and even 7.30pmish tonight was chaos at H&I.

However, considering the massive growth of demand on the service, I am not sure how much difference it will make. While it will be a 25% increase in capacity, forecasts are coming out so significantly lower than actual demand, at best it will keep the current sardine fest...

 

[D365]

Six cars?

 

[Nym]

Six cars?

Bombardier...

(Honestly don't know if one can extend these to six car)

 

[jopsuk]

As I understand it, the ELL cant go longer than 5-car, as even 5-car will require some SDO and the problematic stations are in tunnels.

Can the Watford DC go longer than 100m?

If not, could LO cope with running three sub fleets- 5 car DC only for ELL/SLL, 6-car DV for NLL and 5-car DV for Watford?

How much infrastructure work would be needed for the NLL to go to 120m trains?

 

[ainsworth74]

I was going to ask about the possibility of extending platforms for eight-car trains (and then just buying more four-car units and double up trains) but if five-cars are already going to be needing SDO then I guess I've got my answer!

 

[bronzeonion]

What these trains need is a 3rd doorway on each side. With the current door layout people bunch at a certain set of doors and it takes ages for them get on or off causing dwell times to be quite long, Shepherds Bush is one of the main suspects for this. In the morning peak the Stratford bound trains are usually about 1 or 2 mins late consistently due to the dwell times and the train eventually departs Stratford once everyone has finally got on about 3 or 4mins down.

 

[Skimble19]

Luckily, that's never going to happen.. Could see the locals loving that - would be barely any seats at all!

Sorry, but people bunching at the doors closest to the exit at their destination happens on all routes.

 

[Class377/5]

I was wondering on the thread about TfL possibly taking over Southeastern metro routes whether more class 376 cars could be built? Are they that different from 378? I've read that the 378 are derived from them. If they could then 5 car 376 could become 6 car to capitalise on the platform extensions and power upgrades going on at the moment for 12 car networkers.

TfL have said if they take over Southeastern Metro routes all that will be different is a new coat of paint as there isn't the money to replace a fairly new fleet.

The 376 were supposed to go 6 car at some point but its all gone quiet on that front.

 

[GatwickDepress]

This can't come soon enough. The NLL in particular is becoming farcical. At 11am today the train was packed, and even 7.30pmish tonight was chaos at H&I.

However, considering the massive growth of demand on the service, I am not sure how much difference it will make. While it will be a 25% increase in capacity, forecasts are coming out so significantly lower than actual demand, at best it will keep the current sardine fest...

The 4 car South Croydon - Milton Keynes Central Class 377 that Southern operate down the WLL can get incredibly packed mid-mornings. The demand is certainly there.

Kensington (Olympia) had a bay platform's track ripped up sometime ago. Would it be feasible (both technically and economically) for the track to be relaid and have say, an infrequent service to Clapham Junction?

 

[Nym]

The Euston Electric (DC Lines) platforms can fit a 120m unit...

The problem would be in the shoulder peaks at Euston when trains stack on 8 and 9...

 

[jopsuk]

I was going to ask about the possibility of extending platforms for eight-car trains (and then just buying more four-car units and double up trains) but if five-cars are already going to be needing SDO then I guess I've got my answer!

I'll try and find a map I've seen of what can fit where on the WLL/NLL/ELL Phase 1.

 

[HSTEd]

Overground's explosive growth really continues to amaze me, it has gone from a handful of Class 313s and 150s to a horde of Class 378s and 172s.
Long may it continue, and I do wonder if this sort of improvement could be generated in other suburban rail networks, like the Harrogate Line, with similar improvements and "branding" exercises.

 

[swt_passenger]

TfL have said if they take over Southeastern Metro routes all that will be different is a new coat of paint as there isn't the money to replace a fairly new fleet.

Agreed. And as their own report already pointed out, it could simply be a case of the routes being operated as a 'sub-franchise' under TfL's direct control, the unwritten implication being that it might just be a relivery exercise of trains, staff and stations, but remaining operationally with the area's original mainline operator as well.

The assumption that new stock would automatically be part of the deal as well has always been quite naive, whether on SE or SN, especially with all that new 377 stock arriving soon (in the latter's case). Might be the effect in the GA area though, but only because new stock is almost due there anyway...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The 4 car South Croydon - Milton Keynes Central Class 377 that Southern operate down the WLL can get incredibly packed mid-mornings. The demand is certainly there.

Kensington (Olympia) had a bay platform's track ripped up sometime ago. Would it be feasible (both technically and economically) for the track to be relaid and have say, an infrequent service to Clapham Junction?

Not much point given the existing plans to double the SN service frequency and run at 8 car length. In comparison a short service to/from a bay at Kenny O wouldn't help much with the main flows which reportedly are to Shepherds Bush - and there are already reversing facilities available there in the entrance to North Pole depot.

 

[bronzeonion]

Luckily, that's never going to happen.. Could see the locals loving that - would be barely any seats at all!

Sorry, but people bunching at the doors closest to the exit at their destination happens on all routes.

The pocket door design on the 378's seems to take up alot more room that it should and maybe a slimmer design could be made. So with 3 or maybe even 4 doors on each side rather than having the large vestibule area like now, you could have seats going right up to the doorway.

And the reason bunching happens on all routes is because no mainline trains have more than 2 bleeding doorways!

The bunching I was talking about is on the platforms, where due to there being so few doors huge crowds to take an age to aligh/board and because the next door along is not very near they stay at the one door trying to cram on through the one doorway

 

[swt_passenger]

The pocket door design on the 378's seems to take up alot more room that it should and maybe a slimmer design could be made. So with 3 or maybe even 4 doors on each side rather than having the large vestibule area like now, you could have seats going right up to the doorway.

The construction standards required for mainline trains and their doors are different to what you can get away with on something like S stock and tube stock. Apart from overall structural strength of the carriage it's also about aerodynamic effects passing at high closing speeds - even if the 378s are limited to 75 mph they can still pass other main line trains doing up to 100 mph.

 

[Wolfie]

The pocket door design on the 378's seems to take up alot more room that it should and maybe a slimmer design could be made. So with 3 or maybe even 4 doors on each side rather than having the large vestibule area like now, you could have seats going right up to the doorway.

And the reason bunching happens on all routes is because no mainline trains have more than 2 bleeding doorways!

The bunching I was talking about is on the platforms, where due to there being so few doors huge crowds to take an age to aligh/board and because the next door along is not very near they stay at the one door trying to cram on through the one doorway

Those vestible areas are routinely used by pushchairs and wheelchairs! When they are not used for that purpose they are full of standing people. As someone who uses the Overground every day I say leave the 378s alone, they are excellent!

 

[anthony263]

Overground's explosive growth really continues to amaze me, it has gone from a handful of Class 313s and 150s to a horde of Class 378s and 172s.
Long may it continue, and I do wonder if this sort of improvement could be generated in other suburban rail networks, like the Harrogate Line, with similar improvements and "branding" exercises.

I certainly agree with what you have said and this could help push up demand on off peak services on the Cardiff Valley lines network.I would like to see the Valley lines livery return with an improvement to various services.

Still as you have said the large increase in demand on the London Overground certainly goes to show that people will you public transport when it is there and is reliable.

 

[HSTEd]

Does anyone know if the cash subsidy relating to LOROL is larger or smaller than the operational subsidy consumed by the routes before the conversion to Overground?
The routes are clearly going to be a lot more expensive to run than they once were (all staffed stations et al but the passenger numbers now are drastically larger with the correspondingly enlarged farebox.

Additionally do we have an estimate on how much capital spend was required to produce the Overground network as it stands now?

 

[Bald Rick]

Does anyone know if the cash subsidy relating to LOROL is larger or smaller than the operational subsidy consumed by the routes before the conversion to Overground?
The routes are clearly going to be a lot more expensive to run than they once were (all staffed stations et al but the passenger numbers now are drastically larger with the correspondingly enlarged farebox.

Additionally do we have an estimate on how much capital spend was required to produce the Overground network as it stands now?

Difficult to compare subsidy on a consistent basis, as under Silverlink it was a straight franchise, whereas LOROL operate on a cost based concession with minimal exposure to revenue. Revenue collected on the lines soared on a like for like basis once stations were manned first till last and mostly gated. Equally much of the traffic is on travel cards where revenue allocation is modelled rather than real.

Capital cost is easier, assuming you mean what was spent since TfL took control of the service sepecification. Including all phases of ELL, NLL upgrade, T&H upgrade, the stations upgrade and the fleet, there's not much change from £2bn.

 

[bronzeonion]

Those vestible areas are routinely used by pushchairs and wheelchairs! When they are not used for that purpose they are full of standing people. As someone who uses the Overground every day I say leave the 378s alone, they are excellent!

I use the Overground from Shepherds Bush - Stratford every Tues and Thurs in both peaks. I agree they are excellent trains but was just thinking of improvements to the design.