Five attempts to buy a ticket?

[fusionblue]

So i was trying to buy an advance ticket using some RTVs.
It took me five attempts to purchase this.

I go to catford station to buy the ticket, at least 10 minutes before the SET website says it closes and it's closed already.
I walk over to catford bridge and that's closed too (although it was beyond the hours it was meant to be closed - no issue from me here).

Take a train to lewisham and try to buy it there, and again 15 minutes before it's supposed to be closed all the shutters are down. I walk over to the gates and ask the woman there "why is the ticket office closed? I have an advance ticket i'd like to buy with rail vouchers" and she puts down her litter bag, shrugs at me and says "and what do you want me to do about it? If it's closed it's closed", picks up the bag and walks off.

Furious i give up at this point - i wasn't going to continue going to every station imaginable - and went home.

The next day i'm heading to Ashford Intl via Bromley South so when i'm at Bromley South i ask the gate staff if i can go to the ticket office to buy this ticket (completely unrelated to the one i'm holding to go to Ashford) - this took some convincing because she didn't understand why i had a BZ3 to Ashford Intl ticket, and kept saying "this is zone 5?".

She eventually lets me out and i go to the ticket office. It's 6.50am, two windows are open and manned and there's no queues at all. I go to the desk and explain what i need and she jumps straight in and refuses to do it saying she "cannot do those tickets until 10am". So i give up, again.

On the train to Ashford i ask the inspector if she can sell it. I admit this might not have been possible, but she gave it a go and tried and showed me that it wasn't possible on her machine because it requires a "mandatory reservation". She certainly tried, so i cannot blame her for that.

I get to Ashford and head straight to the ticket office and in less than 5 minutes the man there sells me the ticket with the exact time and price i was expecting. No issues at all.

Should i really have to go to this amount of effort to buy a ticket?

 

[Romilly]

This trend towards shutting early is not just a railway thing. I can think of at least two department stores, and at least two supermarkets, that deny entry as much as 10 minutes before the advertised closing time. My guess is that employers are only paying their staff (or most of them in the case of a large store) to work until the advertised closing time, so that cashing-up and locking-up needs to be completed by the advertised closing time. I now no longer rely on being able to enter a shop (or find a ticket office open) in the last 15 minutes before the advertised closing time.

 

[thedbdiboy]

I actually think the big issue here is that RTVs can only be used at staffed ticket offices. It's something the industry is aware of but as with most things there are so many entities involved in the process that change is not easy. Clearly if you could use your vouchers online you wouldn't have to go through the whole charade.

 

[Emyr]

If the ID card needed for season tickets also carried a chip (like C&P debit cards), you could ask for the vouchers to be loaded onto that, and then TVMs could debit from your "Season Ticket Holder Account".

Like Oyster, but with chips

 

[Yew]

"cannot do those tickets until 10am"

I assume you asked the ticket seller where, in publicly available literature, this regulation is stated?

 

[jon0844]

This trend towards shutting early is not just a railway thing. I can think of at least two department stores, and at least two supermarkets, that deny entry as much as 10 minutes before the advertised closing time.

10 minutes? In St Albans last Sunday, Boots shut the doors at 1640 (closing at 1700). They still let people in, but the automatic doors were locked and you had to go up to the side door and wait for someone to open it.

Clearly staff wanted people to assume it was already closed and give up.

If management are forcing staff to close as early as possible to cash up as they're not paid beyond 5pm, perhaps said management should consider the lost trade for 20 minutes on a day you can only be trading for six hours as it is!

I would certainly not be surprised that staff at stations are also given hardly any time to cash up and close down, so are very tempted to do it early. Of course if people then consider it pointless to go in the last 10-15 minutes, and don't complain, over time it will be considered that demand is low at the time of day and it will justify an even earlier closure.

 

[overtonchris]

If the ID card needed for season tickets also carried a chip (like C&P debit cards), you could ask for the vouchers to be loaded onto that, and then TVMs could debit from your "Season Ticket Holder Account".

Like Oyster, but with chips

Having read the op's post - something like your idea would help I think.

I may be a bit simple, but the entire ticketing system can seem a complicated confusing farce at times - even for the knowledgeable (not me),.... and exacerbated by the fact that different "systems of work / ticketing issuing equipment / and dare I say staff training? (Ducks) across even the same TOC area can appear inconsistent"....and also I feel if a Ticket Office is advertised to be open at certain times - that's the time they should be open! (With exception for sickness etc blah, blah) to prevent situations like the OP's arising.

Your last line Emyr....so bad.....trying not to smile!

 

[OwlMan]

I assume you asked the ticket seller where, in publicly available literature, this regulation is stated?

They are in section 17
see ATOC website

http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/governance/
the actual document is at
http://www.atoc.org/download/clientfiles/files/RSPDocuments/SCHEDULE 17 - April 2014.pdf

 

[Haywain]

If ticket offices are closed before they are meant to be, you should complain to the TOC. They probably won't know otherwise. However, many ticket offices will only issue reservations (and therefore sell Advance tickets) a certain times. In the case of Catford this is between 10:00 and 20:00 Monday to Saturday, and in the case of Bromley South from 09:30 to 20:00 (both according to Schedule 17 of the TSA). Not that Southeastern make that clear in the station information on their website which appears to use the same information source as the NRE website - not that there is much excuse when the information is supplied by the TOC.

Overall, I think the OP has grounds for complaint, and might even get some extra vouchers as a result!

 

[Urban Gateline]

10 minutes? In St Albans last Sunday, Boots shut the doors at 1640 (closing at 1700). They still let people in, but the automatic doors were locked and you had to go up to the side door and wait for someone to open it.

Clearly staff wanted people to assume it was already closed and give up.

If management are forcing staff to close as early as possible to cash up as they're not paid beyond 5pm, perhaps said management should consider the lost trade for 20 minutes on a day you can only be trading for six hours as it is!

I would certainly not be surprised that staff at stations are also given hardly any time to cash up and close down, so are very tempted to do it early. Of course if people then consider it pointless to go in the last 10-15 minutes, and don't complain, over time it will be considered that demand is low at the time of day and it will justify an even earlier closure.

Indeed it is definitely a false economy for a retail business doing it that way! When I used to work for Wilkinson, the shifts on Sundays for a 4pm closing time were only up to 4:30pm for the duty manager and the till supervisor. The cashiers were all only paid up to 4pm, and on most Sundays they end up working about 10mins unpaid as the entrance doors were only locked at 4pm exactly! Not really fair but staff got used to it. There were staff paid to 7pm to do shelf-filling but they all conveniently took breaks around 4pm so weren't available to relieve the cashiers and let them go on time!

Pay may be a factor, as some staff got double time and some time and a half on Sundays, so paying staff to work longer hours might not yield that much extra income when you take the staff costs off!

As far as I know, booking office staff are paid for about 15mins (maybe more depending on the station) after the official window closing time, so that they can cash up and still remain open up to the advertised time. This is what SWT and LM do, not sure about other TOC's. A genuine reason for closing early may be if someone is working a 12h shift to cover morning and afternoon in a booking office that normall has an early and a late shift. e.g. Walton on Thames is open from 06:10-20:40 on weekdays, if only covered by 1 person they may work 06:00-18:00, therefore the window could be closed as early as 17:45!

 

[bb21]

Only Catford and Lewisham warrant complaint as I can see. Staff are correct in the other cases.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If ticket offices are closed before they are meant to be, you should complain to the TOC. They probably won't know otherwise.

They probably won't know even if you do complain to the TOC. The ticket office hours at Apsley, for instance, seem to bear no resemblance at all to the hours published on NRE. LM don't seem to have a clue even when asked about it.

 

[WelshBluebird]

In regards to advance tickets, are the times a guideline or a rule?

I understand if they are in place so advance ticket buyers do not get in the way of the rush hour passengers, but if the ticket office is not busy then why shouldn't they be able to sell advances? I don't understand why it makes any sense at all to say you can't buy advances outside of x times, just for the sake of it.

 

[overtonchris]

They probably won't know even if you do complain to the TOC. The ticket office hours at Apsley, for instance, seem to bear no resemblance at all to the hours published on NRE. LM don't seem to have a clue even when asked about it.

I don't necessarily disagree with you in reality, but if nobody ever complains about this sort of thing then matters will just carry on as before, and passengers will continue to be dis-chuffed (no pun)......that's not right. If there's a chance of getting things put right - maybe with a quick e-mail (whatever), why not?.....I suppose then "who to?" is the big question..... Just a thought out loud.

 

[SansPareil]

Why do some stations have restrictions on when advance purchases with reservations can be made?

Looking at schedule 17 it seems that there are none at my small local station where the booking office is only open from 0630-1300, but at Manchester Piccadilly, a major station, they can't be purchased until 0900. From a customers point of view that does seem odd. I can completely understand why fusionblue was frustraded by his experience at Bromley South. The restriction isn't mentioned on the NRE website as far as I can see.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

It's perhaps worth noting that in my experience with LM, when the ticket office is closed during normal opening hours, it's often because the staff member is elsewhere on the station performing other duties.

I previously had to use Lichfield Trent Valley on a regular basis (this was a few years back, mind you, and before they had a TVM) and there the staff member would often be out sweeping the platforms or picking litter or suchlike. (Seemed to particularly be the case on nice sunny days, but perhaps I'm being unfair there...)

Anecdotally, from what I've read on twitter, this still happens at some stations.

I suppose this is inevitable when stations are single-staffed?

 

[Deerfold]

Only Catford and Lewisham warrant complaint as I can see. Staff are correct in the other cases.

You could still complain that they could better publicise time restrictions on issuing advance tickets - I would not have known any stations had these restrictions if I didn't frequent this forum - I'd be unlikely to check ATOC's website in preference to NRE or the TOC's own publicity whcih rarely (if ever) mentions these restrictions.

 

[island]

There are posters at all Southeastern stations which don't issue reservations before 1000 saying so.

 

[Deerfold]

There are posters at all Southeastern stations which don't issue reservations before 1000 saying so.

That's good. It'd also good to say it where people are likely to look before going to the station.

 

[fusionblue]

There are posters at all Southeastern stations which don't issue reservations before 1000 saying so.

According to that Schedule 17 document listed above (and thanks for showing me that, i wouldn't have known that at all!) both catford stations, lewisham and ashford international all state reservations after 1000. In all four cases there is no posters that state this. Yet i bought the ticket at 0830 at Ashford.

Could you show me one of these posters please?

At catford there is a sign advertising £10 return tickets to the kent coast with a printed sheet of paper stuck on top stating they do not do oyster top ups as "it is a london underground product" right next to the ticket window. Nothing about reservations.

I decided to put a complaint in about the entire thing.

 

[island]

Of those stations the only one I ever use is Lewisham, and infrequently at that. I will endeavour to take a photo of the section of the poster next time. The posters are coloured in two shades of blue and include various other pieces of information about the station such as its booking office opening hours and the provision of assistance with boarding the train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In all four cases I didn't happen to see posters that state this.

Fixed that for you

 

[fusionblue]

It's fair to assume that posters that detail information like ticket office hours and reservations times should be prominently located in/around the ticket office?

 

[maniacmartin]

Section 6-16 (page 150) states:

(1) Display of times

The opening hours of each Ticket Office must be prominently displayed at a location
nearby that is accessible to members of the public at all times unless the Authority agrees
otherwise.

(2) Minimum opening times

(a) The times during which a Ticket Office is open are at the discretion of the
relevant Operator. However, the Lead Retailer at a Regulated Station must use its TSA Version 9.8
- 151 - Issue Date: 17 December 2013
reasonable endeavours to ensure that the Ticket Office specified in Schedule 17
against the name of that Station is open for the times specified except [...]

Therefore it appears to me that the times in Schedule 17 are the minimum times that the ticket office must be open and able to sell the tickets, and there is nothing to stop TOCs selling tickets at extra times in addition if they wish. If there are no queues, it makes no sense to me to refuse AP sales, as it'll only lead to more people booking online or just taking the car.

 

[richw]

At my local station the ticket office staff also do dispatch, so times of the day when only one person rostered, the ticket office closes a couple of minutes before a train is due to.arrive so potentially 5 mins before departure, if another service is then due in the opposite direction the office is closed 10 mins before.the departure of the second service. Passengers then have no.opportunities to buy tickets unless they arrive a good 10 mins before.

 

[fusionblue]

I passed through both catford stations yesterday morning and neither ticket office states anything about restrictions on reservations or even ticket office hours.

I saw a sticker about cheque acceptance dates, a sticker advertising a railcard and the zone the station is in, in both. Catford has 4 printed sheets saying they don't do oyster topups and a poster about delay repay and a security warning poster.

Neither had any information about restrictions on sale of tickets or opening hours.

(Unless they put information like that away from the ticket office, in which case it's not very effective!)

 

[Greenback]

The difficulty is that there is a mass of information that needs to be displayed on stations and near ticket offices. By definition that make sit very hard for much of it to be noticed. My local station has dozens of A4 sheets plastered all over the ticket windows, in any space that appears to be available.

But, if I remember correctly, there is a requirement for opening hours and any restriction on ticket sales during those hours to be displayed somewhere. That was certainly what I was told when I was on the railway, though things might have changed.

I don't recall any requirement on prominence or effectiveness, though - at Reading it used to be a small notice up on the wall at the side of window 9, resplendent in the old FGW dark green. I'll have to have a look to see if it's still there next time I pass through!

 

[maniacmartin]

But, if I remember correctly, there is a requirement for opening hours and any restriction on ticket sales during those hours to be displayed somewhere. That was certainly what I was told when I was on the railway, though things might have changed.

Here it is, from the TSA

6-16 TICKET OFFICE OPENING

(1) Display of times

The opening hours of each Ticket Office must be prominently displayed at a location
nearby that is accessible to members of the public at all times unless the Authority agrees otherwise.

It doesn't explicitly say the anything about displaying when certain types of tickets are on sale, but depending on your interpretation, it could be argued that the full set of information is the station's row in Schedule 17 constitutes the "opening hours". I am unsure.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't recall any requirement on prominence or effectiveness, though

According to the above, it must be displayed 'prominently'

 

[Haywain]

According to the above, it must be displayed 'prominently'

No, according to that it "must be prominently displayed at a location nearby that is accessible to members of the public at all times". A location that is accessible at all times is likely to be on the outside of the station building.

A look at Google maps streetview shows that at Catford Bridge station there is some sort of information board on the station forecourt at the side of the night entrance to the down platform. Perhaps that is the relevant poster?

 

[Greenback]

I stand corrected, but there is no definition of prominent, nor anything else that would help, such as a minimum size of font, format of the notice, and so on.

So, in practice, it would be hard to prove that whatever sign is displayed is not prominent. It could be argued that it simply means not hidden away behind the window(s) and not obscured by leaflets etc.

Equally, it could be argued that prominent means that the letters must be a foot high, illuminated, and displayed at every entrance and exit to the station.

 

[Haywain]

In regards to advance tickets, are the times a guideline or a rule?

I understand if they are in place so advance ticket buyers do not get in the way of the rush hour passengers, but if the ticket office is not busy then why shouldn't they be able to sell advances? I don't understand why it makes any sense at all to say you can't buy advances outside of x times, just for the sake of it.

Schedule 17 is effectively a rule stating minimum service times. There is nothing to stop offices working outside the stated hours, but all are likely to be wary of doing so and setting expectations that cannot be met on a regular basis. The problem is that while there may not be a queue when you get there, if the transaction is complex it may cause significant queuing very quickly. That, and in some cases staffing levels, are why there are often restrictions in place on when tickets requiring reservations are issued. I guess that the TIS in use may affect how easy it is to issue a simple reservation which is why sometimes the will be issued outside those times.