You're just part of the big conspiracy. Sir Richard told me himself, so it has to be true!!
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First win Intercity West Coast franchise
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You're just part of the big conspiracy. Sir Richard told me himself, so it has to be true!!
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F Great Eastern
Established Member
No, National Express defaulted and breached their contract. There was no clause in their contract to make any period of it optional.
First exercised an option in their contract not to take up the OPTIONAL extension.
YorkshireBear
Established Member
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khib70
Does feel like this thread is going round in circles. Dont really know why First buses are being discussed.
Anyone fancy a discussion on virgin atlantic? or even virgin galactic?
Other people have argued against what you have said so im not going to do the same.
But please stop using incorrect information about GW and First buses as reasons for First not to get WCML. As it is pointless. I seriously suggest you take an A-Level module called Critical Thinking. IT will do you wonders.
Does feel like this thread is going round in circles. Dont really know why First buses are being discussed.
Anyone fancy a discussion on virgin atlantic? or even virgin galactic?
Other people have argued against what you have said so im not going to do the same.
But please stop using incorrect information about GW and First buses as reasons for First not to get WCML. As it is pointless. I seriously suggest you take an A-Level module called Critical Thinking. IT will do you wonders.
Reminds me of how so many people misunderstood (or more likely didn't, but realised it sounded better to spread misinformation) about student loans.
In other words, nobody would be able to afford to go to University because of the huge fees they'd have to pay, ignoring the fact that you wouldn't begin paying until in a fairly well paid job.
I am sure most people knew the full facts, but if facts don't help your argument and you can play on the ignorance of others, it seems to be fair game these days.
In other words, nobody would be able to afford to go to University because of the huge fees they'd have to pay, ignoring the fact that you wouldn't begin paying until in a fairly well paid job.
I am sure most people knew the full facts, but if facts don't help your argument and you can play on the ignorance of others, it seems to be fair game these days.
Including their other travel options First have lower average fares than Virgin, so it's good that they have won the franchise!!!
Nice bit of photoshopping, though of all the scare tactics used in this dispute it doesn't rank as the best:
http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobil...ain-fleet-wont-be-ready-for-handover.18990314
http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobil...ain-fleet-wont-be-ready-for-handover.18990314
Who the hell is going to care one bit about the uniforms or the lack of any new stickers on the outside (despite the fact I'm sure they could get some vinyls on the side very quickly indeed) IF things aren't sorted in time?
What about the EMT train that was loaned to EC and went around with that livery until it was leased properly? What about other trains that are loaned out?
Clearly the headline [Warning train fleet won't be ready for handover], which will be seen first (especially by people who see the link but don't even go to read the story) suggests the trains won't be ready to actually run. So, people will jump to the conclusion (or confirm their false belief) that Virgin takes 'its' trains away and there's nothing to replace them - so come December 9th, there's no service.
But that's not true, obviously. Instead it's a non-story about the train having the Virgin stickers taken off (as is a requirement for all TOC changeovers, with it all done at the expense of Virgin) and nothing put on in its place. No, that's POSSIBLY having nothing put on its place. So this non-story is based on something that could happen.
Meanwhile it's going to be broadcast all over the world for everyone to laugh at us, even after we wowed everyone with the Olympic Games and how good our transport network coped. Erm, no - I don't think so. I doubt even Virgin thinks its brand or railway operation is that famous.
Oh deary, deary me.
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Sheepshead
Member
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Just a quick comment on buses. I recall Virgin running A service from Macclesfield to Buxton (or rather contracting a bus company to run them)complete with drivers in Virgin Trains uniforms and buses in VT livery too! It did not reign too long before they decided to withdraw it, just as it were gaining popularity. A vigorous campaign succeeded in a service remaining in place operated by Bowers buses which remain popular as ever right up to this day.
I mention this only to illustrate that Virgin certainly had no qualms in axing any bus services they operated when it suited them.
I mention this only to illustrate that Virgin certainly had no qualms in axing any bus services they operated when it suited them.
90019
Established Member
They shut Dalkeith and scaled back Musselburgh because neither could make a profit. From what I can tell, Musselburgh may be going completely soon if it cannot turn a profit.
They haven't 'abandoned' the Lothians, as there are still plenty of their services about, just not the ones that were directly competing with Lothian. The competiton between Lothian and First in particular was always going to end like this, I'm just surprised it took so long.
The rumours of First scaling back their operations around the Lothains have been going for years, particularly since the bus wars when Lothian pretty much annihilated them from the routes they tried to muscle in on.
By the way, I'm a Lothian driver. You fancy calling me biased towards First?
TheJRB
Established Member
I know it's quite an odd thing to say, but I wonder what will happen to the Virgin shields.
Eagle
Established Member
Probably leave their ghostly imprint on the front of the trains forever, like they have on XC's Voyagers.
sprinterguy
Veteran Member
Probably the same as whatever happened to all the ones that were taken off the 220s and some of the 221s, although I don't have an answer to that: Were they auctioned off, or has Bombardier retained them in a cupboard at Central Rivers?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It'll be even more apparent on the Pendolinos. They have an inset shield shape on the nose, rather than just being stuck on top of the yellow warning panel as they were/are on the Voyagers.
That EMT set is still running around in EMT livery - it's only the power cars that have been done!
Eagle
Established Member
Although it does have the correct name on the sides, which for someone used to the multiplicity of liveries EC trains are in should be all that matters.
I saw it tonight, leaving King's Cross around 2200 and it has at least got EastCoast and the URL on the side... but other than that, it's pretty obvious [to people like us] from the colour scheme and the interior.
But even when it didn't have anything on the side, I doubt many people were talking about it around the world and making jokes! Well, perhaps Mitt Romney might have done.
To get back on track, I'm told that there probably WILL be a case to answer. Virgin have always been good at beating DfT over the head with contracts, and it looks like they may be about to do so again.
Where would that leave the DfT? Not in a very good place. A massive delay on awarding West Coast, and even if they end up winning where does it leave them? First would ask for a "change" due to the delay, which could cost DfT even more than the lawyer's fees they must be racking up.
Plus surely they are going to want to change the ITT to try to stop a repeat of this in future. Where does that leave the franchises just bid or about to be bid? Things can only get worse.
Where would that leave the DfT? Not in a very good place. A massive delay on awarding West Coast, and even if they end up winning where does it leave them? First would ask for a "change" due to the delay, which could cost DfT even more than the lawyer's fees they must be racking up.
Plus surely they are going to want to change the ITT to try to stop a repeat of this in future. Where does that leave the franchises just bid or about to be bid? Things can only get worse.
Sheepshead
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I have heard they will be auctioned for charity.
From the opposite end of the country to HH, this is what I am hearing also
If DfT have erred they will need to take very great care with their next steps. On reflection, maintaining he status quo may be better and less disruptive than an interim DOR solution, indeed it could be argued that if DfT press on with DOR delivery, they might be seen as being vindictive, given that VT might eventually win the challenge and in addition have offered to run the service on a not for profit basis, presumably placing their earnings in a basket for the benefit of the taxpayer.
I might be mistaken but even if VT win the challenge they don't then get the right to run the franchise. My understanding was that the outcome could lead to the SoS having to reconsider their decision (which could lead to VT winning or could still end up with FWC) alternatively the outcome could cause the entire process to be thrown out and having to start the bidding again from scratch. Either way none of the outcomes end with VT running the trains automatically even if the challenge goes in their favour.
HSTEd
Veteran Member
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I am pretty sure DOR would be depositing profits in a basket for the benefit of the taxpayer, and leaving Virgin in charge would set a precedent that we should probably not set.
eastdyke
Established Member
I agree.
I saw this:
'Sir Richard said that if reviewing the decision meant the December deadline had to be postponed, his company and Stagecoach would be willing to continue operating the railway lines while donating any profits to charity'
But that was before the JR application. If granted a full JR is likely to take many many months.
tbtc
Veteran Member
Given that Virgin already take the largest profit of any TOC, I'm sure they'll find a way of taking enough "management charges" etc if they can't call it "profit".
This is a complete red herring, typical Branson smokescreen.
F Great Eastern
Established Member
The only reason Branson has offered to give the profits to charity is because he believes such move may help his cause and drum up more support from the public. It's got nothing to do with helping charity itself.
If the process is believed to be flawed, the whole contest should be restarted. Regardless of who is running the line now, their contract ends at the term written in their original contract so it should go to DOR as a neutral operator
Virgin can't argue the process is totally flawed but then say they want some parts of it to still apply, it's either flawed or it's not in my book, If it is it's declared null and void, if it is not they proceed with First..
If the process is believed to be flawed, the whole contest should be restarted. Regardless of who is running the line now, their contract ends at the term written in their original contract so it should go to DOR as a neutral operator
Virgin can't argue the process is totally flawed but then say they want some parts of it to still apply, it's either flawed or it's not in my book, If it is it's declared null and void, if it is not they proceed with First..
The legal documents submitted to court, and reactions in the corridors of power in Horseferry Road.
Expect announcements of delays in the franchising process.
90019
Established Member
Considering that they're going to be repainted, rather than vinyled like the Voyagers, I would've thought that part of it wouldn't be an issue.
What they'll do about the recess in the nose where they're fitted, though, is a different matter. Perhaps they'll either fill them in or maybe even reuse the space?
Going on a slight tangent, won't XC's Voyagers be due for a repaint sometime soon?
YorkshireRider
Member
Given DOR already run EC then they could and should give themselves more breathing space by announcing and extension into 2014 and put the invitations to tender on hold. As for the rest of the franchises, indeed problems afoot.
But there is no renewal option in the current franchise. On December 9th it ends. The Dft are attempting to find an operator to run services after that date. There is no status quo to maintain. Virgin's plans for the new franchise are similar but not identical to their current service offering. If Virgin win their legal challenge it doesn't mean they automatically get the new franchise, nor would they qualify for an extension of the existing franchise.
The most likely outcome in my mind, should that happen, will be a new ITT under new rules that comply with whatever the judge finds is wrong with the current process. During that time, DOR will take over on a not-for-profit basis, accompanied by more tub-thumping from an aggrieved Virgin boss.
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