First win Intercity West Coast franchise

[RPI]

I remember FNW and they were s**t , Northern started off for the 5 or so years gr8 then a change of top dog put paid to that, Virgin staff all seem to be happy and over the years Virgin had the franchise that is rare. of course things wont probably be as bad as they think, but they are worried and there is no getting away from that.

I work for First and they are fine, never had a problem with them, far superior to NX who we had before and Prsim before that, get plenty of benefits and they just leave you to get on with the day job so they don't have anything to worry about, the only reason they are dreading it is all of the BS that Bransons mob are putting about, now, if Virgin are the wonderful employers then why would the be scaring the crap out of their employees? I've gone from franchise to franchise more than once and to be fair the incumbent operators both were great from the day of the announcement answering questions on what would happen, giving us regular updates on everything and we even had our new uniforms a week before the takeover, so Virgins childish behaviour in all of this actually makes them a bad employer.

 

[Pen Mill]

It does make me laugh reading some of the over opinionated tripe on here - I am backing Virgin because in my opinion (and it is mine - I'm not being brainwashed and I also didn't have four legs and a wool coat last time I looked either) they offer far better customer service than FirstGroup.

I've used First Great Western, Transpennine Express and Capital Connect and the service wasn't great. Couldn't fault Virgin, ok they can be a bit late sometimes but at least it feels like they respect you as a customer rather than treat you as a hinderance like First.

I make the decision (again all on my own) to use Virgin when I can, I also make the decision to avoid using First at all cost. I rate customer service quite highly so why would I want to travel with First when I can provide my own grumpiness in the car?!

With regard individual bids, I see it as quite suspect that First barely pay anything back until the end of franchise where as Virgin would pay back more in the short to medium term. I would have thought in the current economic climate that would be preffered over a promise of possibly something in 10 years time when who knows what the financial landscape will look like.

The last time I travelled Virgin , it was rammed from Birmingham International to Euston and I had to stand by the toilet door and move every time someone wanted to use it , a warming experience.
FGW & TPE are fine.

You have your opinion and I'll have mine but challenging your opponent , come on , that's plain immature and very unprofessional.

I happen to agree on the rear-end loading by the way , but why should I think it wasn't a fair decision , we'll see.

 

[Geezertronic]

The last time I travelled Virgin , it was rammed from Birmingham International to Euston and I had to stand by the toilet door and move every time someone wanted to use it , a warming experience

That is hardly the fault of Virgin if their service is packed is it?

 

[tbtc]

That is hardly the fault of Virgin if their service is packed is it?

Apparently its the fault of First every time one of their trains is too short to cope with demand.

The more I look at Virgin's legal challenge the more it looks like "First should have paid a larger bond" rather than "First shouldn't have been awarded the franchise", which makes it look like nit-picking (whilst accepting First's bid was the better one under the DfT's requirements).

 

[Wath Yard]

If First had been asked to pay a larger bond Virgin would have picked up on it and used it as evidence that the Government knew First's bid was recklessly optimistic, and then put in a legal challenge.

 

[Morgsie]

I have had bad experiences with FGW like standing from Bath Spa to Southampton about 5 years ago

 

[F Great Eastern]

But what do you expect FGW to do about the situation? There is no more stock around for such services, and it's hardly their fault the IEP contract is several years behind schedule.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I have had bad experiences with FGW like standing from Bath Spa to Southampton about 5 years ago

And I've had bad experience on Virgin, like having to stand wedged like a sardine next to a smelly toilet from Lancaster to Carlisle last year. And I did try other coaches, I couldn't actually get in the door at some of the doorways.

One has, sadly, to accept that the network is creaking at the seems in places and until somebody - ie the government - orders more rolling stock for places outside the south east of England, to go into to general pool of resources there is pretty much nothing any of the TOCs can do about it.

 

[YorkshireRider]

If First had been asked to pay a larger bond Virgin would have picked up on it and used it as evidence that the Government knew First's bid was recklessly optimistic, and then put in a legal challenge.

Are companies able to calculate the bond based on a set criteria before the bids are submitted or does this only get discussed in the second round when the 2 preferred bidders have been chosen?

 

[WelshBluebird]

I have had bad experiences with FGW like standing from Bath Spa to Southampton about 5 years ago

1 - People have also had bad experiences with Virgin, so I don't see the point you are trying to make.

2 - Bath Spa - Southampton is not really an "intercity" route, more a regional one, so you really cannot compare it with the WCML.

 

[Wirral]

Cant believe there is that much support for Virgin. There peak time restrictions are outrageous and makes travelling to London and back near on impossible if your a normal person or small company without booking months in advance. The off peak trains leaving London are crammed in the evening due to the restrictions that go on far to late. The peak time trains are half empty most of the time due to the high cost. Any firm offering to reduce the cost of anytime returns that small businesses use at short notice must be commended.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

That is hardly the fault of Virgin if their service is packed is it?

Actually, if it's a 9-car pendolino, yes it probably was at least partly Virgin's fault. Virgin didn't have to make almost half the length of those trains 1st class, resulting in almost all the passengers being jammed into little more than half the train. They chose to do that.

 

[Realfish]

Cant believe there is that much support for Virgin. There peak time restrictions are outrageous and makes travelling to London and back near on impossible if your a normal person or small company without booking months in advance. The off peak trains leaving London are crammed in the evening due to the restrictions that go on far to late. The peak time trains are half empty most of the time due to the high cost. Any firm offering to reduce the cost of anytime returns that small businesses use at short notice must be commended.

Support:I can understand why there is support - Virgin achieved a step change in customer service. When you have that degree of customer loyalty, people come to accept that thing sometimes go wrong.

without booking months in advance: Assuming your User name suggests you near Liverpool, I've just checked The Trainline (at 23:20) and you can be in London, on an advance ticket, tomorrow for £60 (less than half the anytime price), and leave London at 17:00, again for £60

The peak time trains are half empty most of the time due to the high cost: That's not my experience -on trains to and from Liverpool, the NW and Scotland.

Any firm offering to reduce the cost of anytime returns...: Well we'll have to wait and see what First actually offer. Their 15% reduction is 'for two years', but see above, it is possible to book late and travel cheaper...or book earlier to travel even cheaper (my organisation challenged us all to plan our diaries properly. We all did and saved a fortune).

 

[Wirral]

Support:I can understand why there is support - Virgin achieved a step change in customer service. When you have that degree of customer loyalty, people come to accept that thing sometimes go wrong.

Customer Service is not great at all, I have travelled many years on the West Coast and Britsh Rail with their minimal investment offered better service. I have been standard and first class on many occassions. They operate an acceptable service at extortionate cost. I have been in first class when they have run out of wine even though the standard passengers were being sold it, food Ok but nothing special and often not have what you want. The service is Ok but nothing special.

without booking months in advance: Assuming your User name suggests you near Liverpool, I've just checked The Trainline (at 23:20) and you can be in London, on an advance ticket, tomorrow for £60 (less than half the anytime price), and leave London at 17:00, again for £60

We are in School holiday time and still costs over £120 return. During non School holiday periods this can easily go up to the cost of an Anytime return even if booked a week in advance.

The peak time trains are half empty most of the time due to the high cost: That's not my experience -on trains to and from Liverpool, the NW and Scotland.
I travel this route alot and I have never has 4 people in 4 seats at table, never have a 2nd person sat in a bank of two. The trains are running half if not more empty even on a Friday during peak periods from my experience. Yours might differ on a different route.


Any firm offering to reduce the cost of anytime returns...: Well we'll have to wait and see what First actually offer. Their 15% reduction is 'for two years', but see above, it is possible to book late and travel cheaper...or book earlier to travel even cheaper (my organisation challenged us all to plan our diaries properly. We all did and saved a fortune).

Two years better than the current. I have during non holiday found it as chaep to buy an any time return as two singles even a couple of weeks in advance. If the cost of the anytime ticket £277 for Liverpool for example is so high a 50% reduction means nothing. An advance ticket you hold all the risk, have to be at the station at the correct time etc. The anytime return is to high, you can fly with BA Manchester to London for near enough the same price and thats with taxes close on £89 included.

 

[Zoe]

The anytime return is to high, you can fly with BA Manchester to London for near enough the same price and thats with taxes close on £89 included.

But that would have to be booked in advance and so subject to conditions similar to advance train tickets? The cost of getting to and from the airport also needs to be considered, Heathrow and Manchester airports are not centrally located.

 

[WestCoast]

Just picking up on a few points raised on the thread..

What is/was so great about Virgin's customer service? We've heard this from a lot of people, including on this forum. Is this based on actual experience, or just on their reputation?

In my personal experience, Virgin certainly wouldn't rank as poor in the customer service department, but I wouldn't say they were excellent and certainly not leagues ahead of First. Their onboard staff are probably the best, with the station and office support staff being generally pleasant and professional, but rarely outstanding.

Purely anecdotal, but I've sent off a few e-mails to Virgin about various issues and have often received generic replies from what appeared to be overseas outsourced processing centres. I haven't always found the ticket office staff at my nearest Virgin station especially helpful and friendly either, in fact one or two have been rather rude on occasions when requesting delay repay forms.

This is in sharp contrast to my local Northern office, who are probably some of the most friendly and down to earth members of staff I've ever come across on the railway. First TPEs office customer service replies have always been truly excellent as well.

I am not trying to direct criticism towards Virgin and their team here, but I just don't think they are leagues ahead of what the facebook mob would probably call 'rubbish' TOCs.

 

[Wirral]

But that would have to be booked in advance and so subject to conditions similar to advance train tickets? The cost of getting to and from the airport also needs to be considered, Heathrow and Manchester airports are not centrally located.

All very true, the trains are still subsidised by the taxpayer even though less than before. They also do not have the same taxes to pay. It is an extreme example to higlight that anytime trains prices are too expensive on this route. When taking off and landing a plane compares in the private sector against a publicly subsidised rail network then perhaps it is to expensive in my opinion.

 

[455driver]

surely if he really cared about loosing the bid and the process he would be in the UK?

Probably not allowed back into the UK for a while otherwise he will be liable for paying income tax here, him being a non-dom and all.

RB and Virgin dont pay much tax because of his, legal loophole, tax avoidance company (wholly owned by RB himself if I am not mistaken) set up to "manage" his tax liabilities and charge (deductible) fees almost equivalent to the required tax liability.

Man in the street my posterior.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Even if 135mph shaves a few minutes off some journeys, I don't see how Virgin can run extra services to Preston/ Bangor, introduce direct trains to Shrewsbury/ Bolton/ Blackpool/ Stirling etc without any net increase in the number of trains (twenty one EMUs replacing twenty one Voyagers).

What about the 21 displaced voyagers?

Theres a net increase of 21 trains not doing anything which can be used on the extra services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Branson He'd do better to concentrate on Virgin Atlantic before someone else does.

What the Virgin Atlantic that lost £80million last year?

 

[Manchester77]

Wouldn't the 21 voyagers have gone to cross country?

 

[455driver]

Not sure how they intend to work the non-electrified lines, though.

With the displaced 221s!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Wouldn't the 21 voyagers have gone to cross country?

Are they going to XC or staying with WC?

 

[ainsworth74]

With the displaced 221s!

Are they going to XC or staying with WC?

The wording to me suggests that they planned on replacing them rather than utilizing them elsewhere with the franchise:

we would replace all of the Voyager trainswith 21 6-car “Baby Pendolinos” which would mean no diesel operation over electrified lines, delivering the best environmental solution and an all Pendolino fleet providing the best passenger environment.

 

[junglejames]

Virgin's goodies list trumps First's in my book.

Im not sure it does. Virgin claim to be investing loads more money than First, but what is this money giving us? I cant see much at all. All i can see is Virgin introducing new services sooner, including Stirling, which is a different one.
First will be giving the trains a full refurb, not just a refresh.
First will be offering free wifi all round. No sign of that from Virgin.
First will be reducing Virgins sky high fares.

Apart from that, its all similar. OK Virgin say they want to work with NR regarding running at 135mph, but thats definitely not a certainty.
The money to be spent on stations is more with Virgin, but we dont know what the figures' include. Virgins figure seems to include ticket gates. Does Firsts figure?
Id actually say when it comes to a good passenger experience, First seem slightly better. The fleet refurb (including brand new seats) and free wifi throughout, does it for me. Virgin offer very little extra than First, but offer a lot less in other areas.

 

[WatcherZero]

Just picking up on a few points raised on the thread..

What is/was so great about Virgin's customer service? We've heard this from a lot of people, including on this forum. Is this based on actual experience, or just on their reputation?

In my personal experience, Virgin certainly wouldn't rank as poor in the customer service department, but I wouldn't say they were excellent and certainly not leagues ahead of First. Their onboard staff are probably the best, with the station and office support staff being generally pleasant and professional, but rarely outstanding.

Purely anecdotal, but I've sent off a few e-mails to Virgin about various issues and have often received generic replies from what appeared to be overseas outsourced processing centres. I haven't always found the ticket office staff at my nearest Virgin station especially helpful and friendly either, in fact one or two have been rather rude on occasions when requesting delay repay forms.

This is in sharp contrast to my local Northern office, who are probably some of the most friendly and down to earth members of staff I've ever come across on the railway. First TPEs office customer service replies have always been truly excellent as well.

I am not trying to direct criticism towards Virgin and their team here, but I just don't think they are leagues ahead of what the facebook mob would probably call 'rubbish' TOCs.

Of course it is hard to seperate personal experience from national performance so all you can do is rely on those that do just that. Virgin is the highest ranked toc by Which? and Passenger Focus ranks them fourth on 91% behind Merseyrail (96%), Heathrow Connect (94%) and First Hull (93%). While everyone complains about extorninate fares Virgin are also ranked by survey participants as the franchise with the best value for money showing the vast majority enjoy the cheaper advance fares.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

First will be reducing Virgins sky high fares..

They are only reducing the price of 20% of tickets by 15%, the rest they say they expect to continue to rise by RPI+1% over the length of the franchise. The Government also scored Virgins capacity management plan higher than Firsts with Virgin claiming to put more bums on seats.

 

[WestCoast]

Of course it is hard to seperate personal experience from national performance so all you can do is rely on those that do just that. Virgin is the highest ranked toc by Which? and Passenger Focus ranks them fourth on 91% behind Merseyrail (96%), Heathrow Connect (94%) and First Hull (93%)..

Although those surveys are based chiefly on opinions - Virgin carry a lot of irregular travellers who probably never have to deal with their customer service outlets plus they have a strong and well liked brand, this must have an effect on the score.

Sorry, I just constantly get the feeling that the mob will do anything to praise Virgin and anything to discredit First, or any other 'rubbish' TOC.

I am always wary of customer service ratings anyway - where consumers do have a real choice (e.g shops) it's often the companies that serve the most consumers scoring lowly and those that serve the fewest scoring highly.

 

[eastdyke]

There's a lot of stuff about 'customer service' and other intangibles on here. And RB being supposedly good at the PR stuff will have had his finger in much of it.

But this is all tosh! It's all about the money.

Now I am assuming (!) that DfT has properly tested all of the financial bits and cannot but come out OK from any Judicial Review.

I still would not want to be the Judge who is called upon to be preside over the initial hearing to decide whether or not a Judicial Review can procede.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Quote:
''Originally Posted by 455driver

With the displaced 221s!
Are they going to XC or staying with WC?''

The wording to me suggests that they planned on replacing them rather than utilizing them elsewhere with the franchise:

Quote:
''Originally Posted by Virgin
we would replace all of the Voyager trainswith 21 6-car “Baby Pendolinos” which would mean no diesel operation over electrified lines, delivering the best environmental solution and an all Pendolino fleet providing the best passenger environment.''

So something has gone wrong here then?

Otherwise there will be no through trains to:
Chester and North Wales/Holyhead, Stirling etc etc.

Unless of course we can all anticipate some extra investment from Virgin?

 

[junglejames]

While everyone complains about extorninate fares Virgin are also ranked by survey participants as the franchise with the best value for money showing the vast majority enjoy the cheaper advance fares.

Part of the reason for this, is no doubt down to the number of people who think you always have to stick to one particular train no matter what ticket you get. Too many people dont know what off peak and Anytime tickets are. They think all tickets have the same restrictions, and so only see the cheap fares. A lot of these problems stem from The Trainline. Now who is it that invented The Trainline? Ah, Virgin i believe.
If people understood all the tickets, and realised there is (or was) such things as reasonable, turn up and go, tickets, then the results may be very different.

They are only reducing the price of 20% of tickets by 15%, the rest they say they expect to continue to rise by RPI+1% over the length of the franchise. The Government also scored Virgins capacity management plan higher than Firsts with Virgin claiming to put more bums on seats.

You say ONLY, but reducing them is better than what Virgin are doing. Absolutely nothing, and even better than what Virgin did do. Raise the prices to extortionate levels.
Virgin claiming to put more bums on seats? Well Virgin have admitted First will be offering more capacity.

 

[fgwrich]

Although those surveys are based chiefly on opinions - Virgin carry a lot of irregular travellers who probably never have to deal with their customer service outlets plus they have a strong and well liked brand, this must have an effect on the score.

Sorry, I just constantly get the feeling that the mob will do anything to praise Virgin and anything to discredit First, or any other 'rubbish' TOC.

I am always wary of customer service ratings anyway - where consumers do have a real choice (e.g shops) it's often the companies that serve the most consumers scoring lowly and those that serve the fewest scoring highly.

And i remember some of the publics comments after that Which? Survey, which seemed to indicate that the majoritiy of the people didn't know Virgins actual routes, with claims such as their train journey from Stroud to London with Virgin was good....A survey with quite a pinch of salt!

 

[junglejames]

There's a lot of stuff about 'customer service' and other intangibles on here. And RB being supposedly good at the PR stuff will have had his finger in much of it.

But this is all tosh! It's all about the money.

Now I am assuming (!) that DfT has properly tested all of the financial bits and cannot but come out OK from any Judicial Review.

I still would not want to be the Judge who is called upon to be preside over the initial hearing to decide whether or not a Judicial Review can procede.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Quote:
''Originally Posted by 455driver

With the displaced 221s!
Are they going to XC or staying with WC?''

The wording to me suggests that they planned on replacing them rather than utilizing them elsewhere with the franchise:

Quote:
''Originally Posted by Virgin
we would replace all of the Voyager trainswith 21 6-car “Baby Pendolinos” which would mean no diesel operation over electrified lines, delivering the best environmental solution and an all Pendolino fleet providing the best passenger environment.''

So something has gone wrong here then?

Otherwise there will be no through trains to:
Chester and North Wales/Holyhead, Stirling etc etc.

Unless of course we can all anticipate some extra investment from Virgin?

Virgin were going to introduce new diesel locos to haul the Pendys away from the wires, and get rid of all voyagers.
First arent. Firsts mini pendys will be for Brum to Scotland, and then no doubt Bolton abd Blackpool. Chester, Shrewsbury, Holyhead etc will be operated by Voyagers under First.

 

[eastdyke]

Virgin were going to introduce new diesel locos to haul the Pendys away from the wires, and get rid of all voyagers.
First arent. Firsts mini pendys will be for Brum to Scotland, and then no doubt Bolton abd Blackpool. Chester, Shrewsbury, Holyhead etc will be operated by Voyagers under First.

Yes of course, silly me.

PR v cost again!

 

[junglejames]

And i remember some of the publics comments after that Which? Survey, which seemed to indicate that the majoritiy of the people didn't know Virgins actual routes, with claims such as their train journey from Stroud to London with Virgin was good....A survey with quite a pinch of salt!

And, if you are going to take 1 survey into account, then its only fair to take overs as well. Plus figures as well. Figures that show Virgin have sky high complaints.
Now what do we believe more? Surveys, which we cant really be sure what they are saying, or figures?
As long as the figures are correct, then they provide a much better idea than people saying First are always rubbish and Virgin are always amazing, based on the 1 or 2 journeys they have had with Virgin and FCC.

OK, we know that not all those complaints can be taken seriously, and so obviously Virgin arent as bad as it would seem. But if you look at the surveys and figures combined, it shows that all these Bransonites are wrong. Virgin arent miles better. At best, the 2 companies are as good as each other. At worst, First may even be slightly better in some areas.

So with Virgin having no reason to hold on to the franchise (ie, not being anything amazing), and First having no reason to not win it (ie, not being the rubbish company the Bransonites claim), then we have to accept the winner should be the company offering the best bid. Looking briefly over what is offered, First would seem to win. Especially when you consider they are offering higher premiums over the length of the franchise. People want us to be short sighted, and take the larger Virgin premiums over the first few years, but once those first few years are over, you'll be kicking yourself, because you are losing an awful lot of premiums.
Its fine saying Virgin are offering more over the first 10yrs. Yes, but the franchise is not for 10yrs. Its longer. You are basically saying you want a 13yr franchise, but only want to be judged on 10 of those years. Nope, sorry, the whole franchise is to be taken into account.
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I wonder if Virgin have been very clever with their investment figures. I wonder if they are counting all the extra trains they will be introducing, but then forgetting the ones they are getting rid of. Because from what they are telling us, I cant see where all their extra investment is going.