First will not take over West Coast from December

[Zoe]

Although, oddly, I don't remember the Tories complaining about Brown being too lax on the banks

Do you really expect the party that favours the free market more to want additional regulation?

 

[jon0844]

This isn't like all the people who 'knew' Jimmy Savile was a pedo, there were plenty of people who could see the boom and bust scenario when Blair was still PM.

But, you're right in thinking the Tories may well have done the same, or worse.

 

[sprinterguy]

I have never gotten a definitive answer on if previous track records are taken into account or not when deciding on the award of a new franchise.

I do not believe that it is taken into account during the DfT's assessment of the completed franchise bids. This is because the bidders' past performance is assessed at the pre-qualification stage:

The Authority (DfT) will assess any past failure to deliver on contractual commitments, including those of price and quality, whether arising from over-optimistic bidding or from poor management. In the case of rail franchise contracts this will apply to those let since January 2001...The Authority reserves the right to exclude a Potential Provider where it considers that a severe past failure to deliver contractual commitments has occurred.

 

[tbtc]

Do you really expect the party that favours the free market more to want additional regulation?

No, but I think its worth highlighting some of the "wise after the event" Tories, eager to blame everything on Brown, conveniently forgetting that they were happy with the financial/ property bubble (and, if they criticised him they criticised him for TOO MUCH red tape etc).

 

[jon0844]

If I was Virgin, besides making out that it's a victory for Virgin, the people, common sense, the world etc.. I'd also be making sure the spin machine doesn't miss a trick.

Sir Richard should now be stating how happy it is that justice has prevailed (it doesn't matter if it's not quite like that, Joe Public will believe him over anyone else and are too busy to keep up to date with politics).

After that, he should then go on to state how he would like to build a new fleet of trains, cut fares in half, rebuild stations, speed up the line, introduce new services, turn water into wine and any other promises he can follow with 'But I can't do that, as my hands are tied' and make the DfT and Government look bad.

Thus, the public will start to demand to know why Virgin is only being allowed to run things for a year or two and wasn't given the whole 15 year deal.

 

[Geezertronic]

I wonder if similar accusations would be made against First if the roles were reversed? Had Virgin won the Franchise and First applied for the JR only for the DfT to pull the plug, would the same be said against First?

Ok they wouldn't have done it with the same spin and bravado as Virgin, but I assume they would have done something if they thought the process was flawed too?

 

[transmanche]

No, but I think its worth highlighting some of the "wise after the event" Tories, eager to blame everything on Brown, conveniently forgetting that they were happy with the financial/ property bubble (and, if they criticised him they criticised him for TOO MUCH red tape etc).

"The (Labour) government claims that this regulation is all necessary. They seem to believe that without it banks could steal our money."

"A Conservative government should relax banking regulation."

(From a 2007 Conservative Party report – endorsed by Cameron – called 'Freeing Britain to Compete'.)

 

[HH]

Surely, however, the Franchise Agreement provisions only apply once a successor has been selected and a legally valid contract placed? First never had such a contract....

No; the provisions apply to the VRG and its obligations to the Secretary of State.

 

[jon0844]

In theory, everything should have been the same if the roles were reversed - but I doubt First would have ever had the same support from the public.

 

[HH]

I do not believe that it is taken into account during the DfT's assessment of the completed franchise bids. This is because the bidders' past performance is assessed at the pre-qualification stage

Absolutely correct. It doesn't seem to included Financial past performance though, based on NX getting through various qualifications.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'd like to think that, since the two "best" bids agreed on some things (like the need for new 125mph tilting EMUs) the Government could get on with setting the arrangements for such things in place to ensure that we've not wasted another couple of years.

Best, or riskiest?

 

[dggar]

After that, he should then go on to state how he would like to build a new fleet of trains, cut fares in half, rebuild stations, speed up the line, introduce new services, turn water into wine .......

Is that before or after walking on it?

Have we now moved from
"anyone but virgin"
to
"anyone but DOR"

 

[Wath Yard]

If the DfT thought there was a compelling reason to increase capacity on the WCML they would have lengthened all the Pendolinos. If they thought there was a compelling reason to replace the Voyagers, and had a cascade strategy, they wouldn't have made it an option in the ITT. The whole point of the longer franchise was to make them long enough for the TOC to invest and gain a return on their investment, but at the same time ensure they also took the financial risk.

I think it is fairly certain there will be no noticeable improvements of any kind in the next 3-4 years, and probably very few if any after that as any company bidding for the longer franchise will now play it safe.

 

[HH]

If the DfT thought there was a compelling reason to increase capacity on the WCML they would have lengthened all the Pendolinos.

I'm told that there wasn't even a compelling economic case for what they already did.

 

[PR1Berske]

Statement to the House being made now:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/tv/bbc_parliament/watchlive

 

[northwichcat]

I imagine Virgin knew the outcome on Friday when they put out this release relating to buying Advance tickets for travel over Christmas:
http://mediaroom.virgintrains.co.uk/2012/10/book-early-for-christmas-train-travel.html

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Statement to the House being made now:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/tv/bbc_parliament/watchlive

Nothing new.
Just buying time until the investigations are done.
Hiding behind "value for money" and "improving quality".
And the HS2 knocking has started from both sides of the house.
Looks like the three paused franchise competitions will have to wait till Richard Brown's report is out (end of year).

 

[HSTEd]

Was Bob ever expecting the Government to decide this was the moment to renationalise?

Of course not. As he says twice, the Government is ideologically opposed to public ownership. So, it was never going to happen.. why did he even suggest it?

He's just as 'stuck in his ways' for demanding renationalisation all the time.

Because that is his view?
Why should be forced to temper his views since he is opposed to any form of private interference in the railways and anything but renationalisation does not deliver that.

I'd have a bit more respect for him if he'd try and see the 'middle ground' and offer to work with the Government and industry to try and solve issues, but he's just fixated on one thing over and over and over and over again.

Because it is the only option he can see that makes any sense, working with the government basically just means giving in to the demands of the Tory Right (and New Labour pseudo Tory Right) to 'smash the state' and bow before the apparent glory of the undying free market.

I can't wait to hear about the deal the DfT negotiates with Virgin (almost certainly in Virgin's favour) and the fun and games when the new franchise bidding process begins (especially if Virgin doesn't win then either).

"Have ten billion pounds, please don't sue us again" probably sums it up/

 

[jon0844]

Because that is his view?
Why should be forced to temper his views since he is opposed to any form of private interference in the railways and anything but renationalisation does not deliver that.

Has he been forced to temper his views? I just said that he's after one thing and acting surprised/outraged when a Government doesn't do something he knows they will never do.

Statement to the House being made now:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/tv/bbc_parliament/watchlive

I can't believe Sir Richard hasn't been allowed in to make his own statement to the house. Doesn't that just prove the Government is anti-Virgin?!

 

[E16 Cyclist]

I'm not saying any part of the voided contest would count. The question is if anyone would bother bidding against Virgin for such a short franchise, this would be the same if the DfT had never held the previous contest but instead decided to just go to a 2 year "caretaker" franchise. Is it really woth taking on Virgin for such a short franchise and do they have a realistic chance of winning against Virgin? In the case of Greater Anglia, National Express didn't bid and so no-one had any incumbant advantage, the DfT had to award the franchise to a new company. As I said, considering the competition has been declared null and void then it's only fair that Virgin go into the new competition in the same position they were in last time as incumbant and so retaining any advantage they had.

You could argue that they had their advantage as incumbant today by retaining a franchise they'd previously lost and will probably do very well financially by.

 

[D365]

Wasn't it the case that National Express weren't allowed to bid for the Anglia franchise? I just hope that the whole thing gets sorted out (nationalisation!) so it doesn't waste any more of our money with legal battles and such...

 

[tbtc]

"The (Labour) government claims that this regulation is all necessary. They seem to believe that without it banks could steal our money."

"A Conservative government should relax banking regulation."

(From a 2007 Conservative Party report – endorsed by Cameron – called 'Freeing Britain to Compete'.)

Game Set & Match

The whole point of the longer franchise was to make them long enough for the TOC to invest and gain a return on their investment, but at the same time ensure they also took the financial risk.

I think it is fairly certain there will be no noticeable improvements of any kind in the next 3-4 years, and probably very few if any after that as any company bidding for the longer franchise will now play it safe.

Sadly true. Just when the CP5 announcement was getting me excited about improvements in many areas (and cascaded stock to others) - the biggest leap forward in a generation or two... now we are potentially looking at stagnation, shorter franchises, fewer risks, a delay in delivering improvements to Shrewsbury/ Blackpool etc, more wasted years. How frustrating.

 

[daikilo]

Nothing new.
Just buying time until the investigations are done.
Hiding behind "value for money" and "improving quality".
And the HS2 knocking has started from both sides of the house.
Looks like the three paused franchise competitions will have to wait till Richard Brown's report is out (end of year).

"Just buying time..." Well it will only be that simple if the seller cooperates. VWC has nothing to sell? Oh really! This will be epic.

 

[Realfish]

Game Set & Match



Sadly true. Just when the CP5 announcement was getting me excited about improvements in many areas (and cascaded stock to others) - the biggest leap forward in a generation or two... now we are potentially looking at stagnation, shorter franchises, fewer risks, a delay in delivering improvements to Shrewsbury/ Blackpool etc, more wasted years. How frustrating.

This is my concern also. This was the subject of a number of Q's to the SoS in the Commons. He seemed to say (I'm paraphrasing) that he would hope to find ways of achieving these improvements despite the franchising delays.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

This is my concern also. This was the subject of a number of Q's to the SoS in the Commons. He seemed to say (I'm paraphrasing) that he would hope to find ways of achieving these improvements despite the franchising delays.

VT might be able to find the odd Voyager for a token Shrewsbury or Blackpool service after the Pendolino lengthening project is finished, but there's no way a fuller service can be provided without new Pendos being purchased.
I doubt if DfT will let a new train order happen until the longer franchise is awarded.
I thought the exchange about Chester and Shrewsbury services was quite funny really. "Can't think of a finer city to go to than Chester..." (noises off: Except Shrewsbury)"!

 

[tbtc]

This is my concern also. This was the subject of a number of Q's to the SoS in the Commons. He seemed to say (I'm paraphrasing) that he would hope to find ways of achieving these improvements despite the franchising delays.

VT might be able to find the odd Voyager for a token Shrewsbury or Blackpool service after the Pendolino lengthening project is finished, but there's no way a fuller service can be provided without new Pendos being purchased.
I doubt if DfT will let a new train order happen until the longer franchise is awarded.
I thought the exchange about Chester and Shrewsbury services was quite funny really. "Can't think of a finer city to go to than Chester..." (noises off: Except Shrewsbury)"!

If the Government decided that they were going to start the ball rolling with new 125mph EMU stock and with potential electrification (Wolverhampton - Shrewsbury - Crewe - Chester?) then the short franchise wouldn't be an issue - we'd still be making progress.

It's a simple problem - we either allow private companies to take risks (including decisions on new stock/ services), or we prescribe all of this - we seem to have the worst of both worlds at the moment though!

 

[3141]

Whilst Virgin could insist on very profitable terms in return for agreeing to continue running the West Coast services, they may also calculate that doing that would lay them open to criticism, and also that it would increase any hostility towards them that may exist at the DfT. It would be in their interest to agree a reasonable management contract.

I see why the DfT may feel that after nine to twelve months they may need to let a short-term franchise, but I wonder if, in about next July, they might conclude that the costs of running the competition would be unreasonable and that it would be better to continue with a Virgin management contract until a longer franchise can be let. Also, imagine the situation if Virgin did not win the short-term franchise, but the winner of that was outbid by somone else when the long-term franchise was let. Yet another change in managing the service.

Whatever the DfT may say today, a mere two weeks after they were forced to cancel the previous bids, it is likely that as they think about things over the next few months, and take into account the two reports they have commissioned, they will want to revise their WCML franchising programme. Would they really want a new long-term franchise to be let shortly before the next general election, bringing a potentially controversial outcome into the news only a few months before people were due to vote, and reminding us all about how they'd screwed things up in 2012?

 

[ainsworth74]

Wasn't it the case that National Express weren't allowed to bid for the Anglia franchise?

They were allowed to bid, they just got eliminated very early in the competition.

 

[HH]

Got to laugh at this from the Railway Eye:

Good to see that the Department for Transport remains at the very top of its game!

Eye understands that late last night Marsham Street was desperate to speak to Tim O'Toole.

So naturally they rang London Underground to try to get hold of him...

 

[SprinterMan]

They were allowed to bid, they just got eliminated very early in the competition.

Indeed, this was rumoured to be because of the NXEC debacle and the way they were running the GA fleet into the ground (no 321 refurb etc.). Whatever the reason (DfT revenge or not), things are much better under Abellio now.

Adam

 

[Holly]

No company can be anything other than greatly damaged by being told they have won a franchise and then, in the midst of executing plans, told they might not have. Except possibly the incumbent.
Virgin has made it far too much of a commercial risk for anyone else to enter the bidding process for West Coast ever again. Sole bidder franchises going forward.