First will not take over West Coast from December

[jon0844]

Even if Virgin is allowed to carry on with things on a management contract, until DOR takes over, I presume they'll STILL have to remove their livery and operate it under a generic name?

Thus, even if Virgin 'wins' a stay of execution for a few months while DOR gets up and ready, they still lose their branding.

 

[Welshman]

I gather that Louise Ellman, Chair of the Transport Select Committee, has written to Patrick McLoughlin re the WC Franchise debacle:-

http://www.parliament.uk/business/c...ort-committee/news/sos-letter-wcml-franchise/

Note the picture illustrating the WCML :roll:

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's about safety cases and track access agreements, not branding.
Commercial terms also come into it - there have to be objectives and incentives.
DfT also has to decide how long the "temporary" contract is for - 6 months is one thing, 2 years another, in terms of the legal implications.
They don't even know yet what impact there will be to the general refranchising timetable, and where West Coast should fit in to that now.
They could decide to put West Coast to the back of the queue (too hard, too embarrassing, too political to rerun immediately).
I suspect there will be an accommodation between DfT, Virgin and DOR to keep things as they are visually, at least in the short term.
Behind the scenes and longer term, who knows.

 

[HH]

Depends how long DOR are in for. Personally I can't see it being any longer than the time it takes to "fix" the franchising process and rerun it, which can't be much more than a year.

I don't know. Given the number of franchises to be re-let, the reduced time for doing so, and the cost of extending existing franchises, I can see WCML and ECML being the ones that are delayed...

 

[marks87]

Depends how long DOR are in for. Personally I can't see it being any longer than the time it takes to "fix" the franchising process and rerun it, which can't be much more than a year. In that case I'm sure it wouldn't do the DfT any favours to be seen spending money for a reliverying that won't last long (even if the actual cost is comparatively tiny).

Didn't I read somewhere that the East Coast livery will remain, no matter who wins the franchise if/when it's eventually put out to tender? Couldn't the same happen with the West Coast?

A bit like ScotRail, where the Saltire livery is permanent, and the only thing that will change (if needs be) is a logo on the door.

 

[jon0844]

It would make sense to delay the ECML one, given DOR is perfectly able to carry on and is doing a decent job (seems the only issue is catering, which isn't a massive deal).

I do, however, think it would be unfair (and wrong) to let Virgin carry on running the WCML service with its branding. It will clearly look as if it did win after all, and only cause all the fuss to start up again when DOR is able to take over properly.

To begin with, it would be a simple sticker-on-top vinyl to cover the Virgin branding that's painted on, and new posters/signs on the train itself.. not a complete relivery at huge expense.

Didn't I read somewhere that the East Coast livery will remain, no matter who wins the franchise if/when it's eventually put out to tender? Couldn't the same happen with the West Coast?

A bit like ScotRail, where the Saltire livery is permanent, and the only thing that will change (if needs be) is a logo on the door.

That would be nice, although I'm not sure I really like the EC livery as it is. It works, yes, but looks like it was deliberately understated to avoid accusations of wasting money. If we were to get a standard livery for all IC services (but then they should have made it part of the ICWC tender, and also for the GWML one) then let's make it something special.

 

[WCMLaddict]

FYI here is a Special West Coast edition of Railnews available to download to anyone.

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2012/10/08-special-west-coast-edition-of.html

 

[Realfish]

It should be DOR, based on Virgin already having used up their extension.. However, at this stage (and until DfT sneak it out in the middle of the night thinking everyone's in bed) it's all speculation.

The SoS has just said that he will make an announcement on post December services, in the Commons next week.

 

[ainsworth74]

Didn't I read somewhere that the East Coast livery will remain, no matter who wins the franchise if/when it's eventually put out to tender?

My understanding is that the repaint has been done in such a way that it can act as a base coat to either a fully vinyled train or to have vinyls applied on some parts of the train. As far as I'm aware there will be no requirement for the future operator to keep the East Coast livery as is.

 

[AndyLandy]

I can personally only seeing dor operating the franchise.

I can't see the goverment wanting to look like they have given in and let virgin continue. I can see virgin doing lots more sneaky marketing and trying to look good in front of gullible passengers. Surely also first group would rather dor run the line.

Think of it this way, pretend that your a child and your have an arguement with your bro or sis over your favourite toy. Your parents are debating the issue and decide in the meanwhile that your bro/sis can play with the toy until they have dealt with the issue- you wouldn't be too pleased with that!

The situation is very much a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" for the government/DfT. They can either let Virgin continue with their offer of donating profits to charity, to the detriment of them appearing impartial; or they can spend money getting DOR in to do the job, which will get them scorn for wasting more public money. I can't help but notice how elegantly Virgin seem to have manoeuvred themselves into this situation...

Even if Virgin is allowed to carry on with things on a management contract, until DOR takes over, I presume they'll STILL have to remove their livery and operate it under a generic name?

Thus, even if Virgin 'wins' a stay of execution for a few months while DOR gets up and ready, they still lose their branding.

I'd expect that if Virgin get a stay of execution, they'd be allowed to leave the livery as-is. If DOR took over, the answer has to be about keeping costs to a minimum. Remove Virgin branding, but leave paint jobs and colour scheme alone. Maybe apply some small "West Coast" vinyls to give the trains some kind of branding so people know what they're boarding.

 

[jon0844]

Yes, top marks to Virgin. All around the net you can see people just saying 'Why not let Virgin carry on, they were doing a good job'.

And if you suggest that it's a bit unfair given they didn't win, then we get the theories that David Cameron wanted First to win, and ordered the DfT to pick them (because First presumably bribed him in some way, or he's protecting big business as a Tory toff, whereas Virgin isn't big business as it's run by Richard Branson and we LOVE him) or that it's a waste of money to get someone else to step in when Virgin is already there. Oh, and the calls to simply renationalise the entire railway tomorrow, at any cost.

Basically, unless Virgin won this bid - or wins the next - the problem will never go away.

Perhaps there shouldn't even be another bid, just axe the franchising system and let Virgin run everything they want to. There will be plenty of other routes that other companies can do though, after Virgin does its cherry picking! They'd take all the IC routes and have done with.

 

[harz99]

That would be nice, although I'm not sure I really like the EC livery as it is. It works, yes, but looks like it was deliberately understated to avoid accusations of wasting money. If we were to get a standard livery for all IC services (but then they should have made it part of the ICWC tender, and also for the GWML one) then let's make it something special.

Personally I think that ECML, WCML and GWML operations are far too important as the main rail arteries of the whole of Great Britain to remain in the flawed and discredited franchise arena.

All three franchises should revert to DOR, also those main line stations on the routes not already operated by Network Rail should be transferred to Network Rail to operate, and all ticket office staff on those stations transfer to DOR.

Then we could call the whole shebang "InterCity" and revert to the tasteful former BR IC livery used prior to privatisation.

 

[AndyLandy]

Personally I think that ECML, WCML and GWML operations are far too important as the main rail arteries of the whole of Great Britain to remain in the flawed and discredited franchise arena.

All three franchises should revert to DOR, also those main line stations on the routes not already operated by Network Rail should be transferred to Network Rail to operate, and all ticket office staff on those stations transfer to DOR.

Then we could call the whole shebang "InterCity" and revert to the tasteful former BR IC livery used prior to privatisation.

Put MML and XC into that mix and you have yourself a deal my friend!

 

[billio]

If the Government had any sense and if the Civil Servants at the DfT had some quality then they would be using this opportunity to re-think the way the railways are run. They have had a report that shows that UK railways are more expensive than many other places in Europe, perhaps they may use this cock-up to improve things.

But that's a big if.

As I understand it, DOR running the East Coast contributes profits to the exchequer (and so they should on a service like that). The DfT should be all over their books to see where the costs are generated: they have the right, they own it. Doing something similar with the West Coast franchise would allow a whole new set of data to be collected. If anyone has any sense this should be opening a lot of eyes to see why our railways cost so much. And there would be a lot of political brownie points if they could change things such that fares were frozen or even reduced.

I live in hope, but I don't expect much.

 

[caliwag]

This appears to be an attempt to box Virgin in...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...-franchise-options-pose-threat-to-Virgin.html

 

[Wath Yard]

The situation is very much a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" for the government/DfT. They can either let Virgin continue with their offer of donating profits to charity, to the detriment of them appearing impartial; or they can spend money getting DOR in to do the job, which will get them scorn for wasting more public money. I can't help but notice how elegantly Virgin seem to have manoeuvred themselves into this situation...

Virgin Trains are not going to operate the ICWC franchise for 15 - 18 months on a not for profit basis. The reviews aren't going to report until the end of the year, followed by 3 months or so of consultation and consideration and finally 9 or 10 months of bid preparation, evaluation and handover.

The only sensible solution is for DOR to take over, as if I was Tim O'Toole I'd have my best lawyers on standby if the DfT give it to Virgin. It was the process that was flawed so for one of the losers to profit whilst FirstGroup have been shafted in almost every conceivable way, regardless of the merits of their bid, isn't really acceptable.

Therefore, I fully expect the DfT to give Virgin an extension!

 

[Geezertronic]

I've seen the new livery already...

(I was considering Tweeting that modified image, but I don't know the original author of the above image)

You'd need to change the number from 390054 to 390154 since the unit is now an 11 car

 

[D365]

Wan't that one of Paul Burkitt's? Or some Photoshop expert. I doubt anything will look as good to the public as Virgin red/silver.

 

[dosxuk]

I doubt anything will look as good to the public as Virgin red/silver.

Why?

XC's modified Virgin livery looks better on the Voyagers than the original livery, and I think the EMT variation of Stagecoach Express could look good on the Pendos.

 

[eastdyke]

SRB on ONE SHOW BBC1 now.

 

[Ivo]

Back on topic: I completely agree about First getting their best lawyers out if Virgin are granted a stay of execution, even if they do donate all profits to charity..

If Virgin are happy to run the franchise on a Not-for-Profit basis, and I haven't seen anything recent (not including posts on here) confirming one way or the other, then is there any reason why they couldn't pay a percentage of ticket sales (maybe 10%) to First? Virgin get the publicity, First get the money, the Government get both. And then maybe charities could benefit as well.

 

[eastdyke]

Can be seen on BBC iplayer 'restart current programme' for next 20 mins.

Not sure whether on iplayer later in evening.

Fairly expected and rather brief, ends with SRB having an 'is that it' look!

 

[Wath Yard]

If Virgin are happy to run the franchise on a Not-for-Profit basis, and I haven't seen anything recent (not including posts on here) confirming one way or the other, then is there any reason why they couldn't pay a percentage of ticket sales (maybe 10%) to First? Virgin get the publicity, First get the money, the Government get both. And then maybe charities could benefit as well.

I think you are living in some sort of fantasy land. FirstGroup to get 10% of revenue for doing nothing?! On top of that Virgin make a profit, the DfT get a premium and charities get something - are you suggesting a 100% increase in ticket prices?

As far as I know Virgin have never made an unconditional offer to run the ICWC franchise for nothing. The latest rumours (The Times last week and The Telegraph yesterday) are Virgin might run it for a 1-2% management fee. That equates to £10-£20 million per year, and there is no suggestion Virgin would waive this fee or give it to charity.

 

[matt]

Can we try and keep on topic please rather than posting about what colour the trains may or may not be. Thanks

 

[A0]

Personally I think that ECML, WCML and GWML operations are far too important as the main rail arteries of the whole of Great Britain to remain in the flawed and discredited franchise arena.

All three franchises should revert to DOR, also those main line stations on the routes not already operated by Network Rail should be transferred to Network Rail to operate, and all ticket office staff on those stations transfer to DOR.

Then we could call the whole shebang "InterCity" and revert to the tasteful former BR IC livery used prior to privatisation.

As someone who remembers and used British Rail in the 80s and 90s, I'd have to say a resounding no thanks.

I really can't think of anything which I think BR did better than how it is now.

Staff politeness is totally different, in my experience. By and large the network has newer rolling stock which offers a better ride and nicer passenger environment - and is kept in better condition overall (though there are some exceptions FCC....) and even the stations seem better kept.

For West Coast, probably the 'best' outcome for the taxpayer is for Virgin to run it as a fixed management contract for 18 months (or however long it takes to set a timeline out for re-franchising) - that way we avoid all the costs of changing liveries / publicity material / uniforms as well as the cost of setting up a new company for an interim period and TUPEing the employees.

Virgin have everything in place to keep running the route for that kind of period - let's keep it simple and avoid any further disruption. I should say I'm no fan of Virgin as an organisation - they rely on small print and sharp practises as much as most of their various competitors do, their marketing far exceeds the quality of their product, before I get accusations of cheerleading for them.

East Coast was different because Nat Ex handed back the keys before the franchise period was due to end, which meant something had to be put in place - the last government didn't want to keep NX in place (I suspect for political reasons) and therefore DOR was the only route open to them - since GNER had been disbanded.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think you are living in some sort of fantasy land. FirstGroup to get 10% of revenue for doing nothing?! On top of that Virgin make a profit, the DfT get a premium and charities get something - are you suggesting a 100% increase in ticket prices?

As far as I know Virgin have never made an unconditional offer to run the ICWC franchise for nothing. The latest rumours (The Times last week and The Telegraph yesterday) are Virgin might run it for a 1-2% management fee. That equates to £10-£20 million per year, and there is no suggestion Virgin would waive this fee or give it to charity.

Branson has said that profits from rail go to his green energy programme or to charity (ie not to high living in the Caribbean).
I don't know how true that is, or how you'd check.
I agree with you about First. They have no rights to WC revenues.
The competition is null and void, so no winner and no losers.
Virgin are, however, the incumbent, just as First is on Great Western.
I wonder what the GW bid teams are doing just now!?

 

[Wath Yard]

If Virgin get an extension FirstGroup are almost certain to start legal action. Apart from the point I made earlier regarding one of the losers making a profit whilst First have had a huge chunk wiped off their stock market valuation, there is also the point HH made several weeks ago - if the DfT had the balls Virgin should have been excluded from the bidding process for their petitioning of David Cameron and breaking the no publicity clause. The DfT instructed FirstGroup to continue with their preparations to take over the franchise, therefore they could argue they should have been given the task of caretaker seeing as they were almost half way through the process.

Anything but DOR is going to make the mess we are currently in seem like a small hiccup.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Branson has said that profits from rail go to his green energy programme or to charity (ie not to high living in the Caribbean).
I don't know how true that is, or how you'd check.
I agree with you about First. They have no rights to WC revenues.
The competition is null and void, so no winner and no losers.
Virgin are, however, the incumbent, just as First is on Great Western.
I wonder what the GW bid teams are doing just now!?

I've read the green energy thing but don't recall anything about past profits going to charity. However:

1. He'll be expecting a profit from his green energy business and will just be using the rail profits as capital to get it going and
2. Branson can do whatever he wants with his share, but I know exactly what Stagecoach have been doing with theirs, and it hasn't gone to Battersea Dogs Home or Cancer Research!

I know Virgin are the incumbent but seeing as there has been a franchise competition, as flawed as it was, it does make it far more complex than C2C and FGW.

 

[3141]

If I was Tim O'Toole I'd have my best lawyers on standby if the DfT give it to Virgin. It was the process that was flawed so for one of the losers to profit whilst FirstGroup have been shafted in almost every conceivable way, regardless of the merits of their bid, isn't really acceptable.

Therefore, I fully expect the DfT to give Virgin an extension!

If I was Tim O'Toole I'd probably say that I was considering all the options and imply that I had the lawyers champing at the bit, but I'm not sure what I'd say if someone asked me what the lawyers might be going to do. The process to relet the West Coast franchise has failed. First might try to sue the DfT for the loss of profits that they might have made if the DfT hadn't decided to abandon the process. But they could do that regardless of who actually runs the route from December 9. Somebody has to run it. Some people favour Virgin, others favour DOR. I don't see what legal action could be triggered if DfT comes to an arrangement with Virgin, which First couldn't have started otherwise.

Unless, perhaps, they argue that the process by which the DfT came to such an arrangement was flawed, etc.

 

[ainsworth74]

I wonder what the GW bid teams are doing just now!?

Kicking their heels I imagine seeing as the GW competition has been suspended pending the review.

 

[MK Tom]

Can we try and keep on topic please rather than posting about what colour the trains may or may not be. Thanks

Isn't the livery after December 9th relevant to the thread? I'd be afraid to start a separate thread about that because people would tell me not to do two threads on the same topic.