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First West Yorkshire & York discussion

Tetchytyke

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That was exactly my point, those who use the 615, 616, 619 & 633 and change onto the train have been affected by the closure of Interchange.
I really wouldn’t have thought so. The Interchange bus station has always been a bit of a white elephant.

Bradford is tougher bus country these days. You can park all day in Broadway for six quid and it’s the same in the council car parks, so people with cars will drive. Especially given First’s timetable being a death by a thousand cuts.

But I’m not having it for a second that those routes are unprofitable. Possibly not profitable enough for First’s internal targets, but that’s not the same thing at all.

Bring on franchising.

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I wonder whether the concentration on Huddersfield's repaints lately is driven by the fact that this region will be one of the first franchised by WYCA?
Very probably. First putting their best face on prior to the tenders happening. It’s still lipstick on a pig though.
 
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mattb7tl

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Very probably. First putting their best face on prior to the tenders happening. It’s still lipstick on a pig though.
This appears to be the case operation wide. The operations in the last tranche appear quite run down and poor. (Bradford & Halifax, WYCA has not confirmed which depot in Leeds is lot 1/2 after they decided to longer build a third depot, but presumably it is Hunslet, based on how poor it is)

Huddersfield has never received so much love and attention and the random switch up certainly raises questions.
 

noddingdonkey

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I attended the WYCA event at Marsden Mechanics last night. (NR and TPE ironically pulled out as they could get there due to Standedge bring closed!)

Chatting to the First rep (I think it was the Network Manager) it was the usual victim card stuff, but I think I did manage to get him to acknowledge my argument that their short termist cut, cut, cut policy just leads to the overall service being useable for even fewer people so reduces usage further as people make other arrangements or don't travel.

He did promise to take a look at timetables and coordination with the 184 rather than running their infrequent service a few minutes apart.
 

Tetchytyke

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I think I did manage to get him to acknowledge my argument that their short termist cut, cut, cut policy just leads to the overall service being useable for even fewer people so reduces usage further as people make other arrangements or don't travel.
The AI timetable issues are not exclusive to Bradford or even to West Yorkshire, but they sum up First's attitudes perfectly.

This extract from the 633 timetable illustrates it perfectly. The service is advertised as 2bph. When the current timetable was introduced, it was summarised as minor changes but with the same frequency.

1769685268889.png

However you'll notice that the gaps extend out from 30 minutes to about 35 minutes before the random gap in service between the 1408 and the 1513. The effect of this is that (timed from Shipley) from 1pm-3pm, from 2pm-4pm, and from 3pm-5pm there are actually only three buses in a two hour period, not four.

They think people won't notice but they do.

This is, by the way, the only service which serves Tyersal and there's a 70-minute gap in services and there are only two buses into the estate from Bradford between 3pm and 5pm. Two buses in a two hour period on a route which is supposed to be 2bph.

Tyersal is a large estate which already has deprivation issues because it is effectively an exclave of Leeds- although the estate is in the City of Leeds, the only road access is to Bradford.

It just sums up how deregulation has failed West Yorkshire.
 
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Andyh82

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Do you not think bus use may have dropped in Bradford due to how many of the shops have closed and given the choice, most people will look towards Leeds now. The nice pedestrianisation generally is in front of boarded up or poor quality shops. There is still a hostile feel with funny characters and all day drinkers hanging around

It will be interesting when franchising starts if the combined authority does publish transparent patronage numbers without any smoke and mirrors so we can see if bus use in Bradford does grow significantly if they remove AI timetables and increase frequencies. I’m not sure I trust them to not massage the figures.
 

Deerfold

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Do you not think bus use may have dropped in Bradford due to how many of the shops have closed and given the choice, most people will look towards Leeds now. The nice pedestrianisation generally is in front of boarded up or poor quality shops. There is still a hostile feel with funny characters and all day drinkers hanging around

It will be interesting when franchising starts if the combined authority does publish transparent patronage numbers without any smoke and mirrors so we can see if bus use in Bradford does grow significantly if they remove AI timetables and increase frequencies. I’m not sure I trust them to not massage the figures.
It may, but until the pandemic Transdev managed to keep the Keighley to Bradford service at the 80s 6bph level - they've since dropped it to 4bph, but 6bph in the peaks, it runs 20-80 minutes later than it did (until 0020 Friday and Saturday, with a brief attempt at running an 0120 on those days) and they increased the Sunday service to 3bph from 2 in late 2020 so presumably some people are going to Bradford.
 

YorkRailFan

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I really wouldn’t have thought so. The Interchange bus station has always been a bit of a white elephant.

Bradford is tougher bus country these days. You can park all day in Broadway for six quid and it’s the same in the council car parks, so people with cars will drive. Especially given First’s timetable being a death by a thousand cuts.

But I’m not having it for a second that those routes are unprofitable. Possibly not profitable enough for First’s internal targets, but that’s not the same thing at all.
I think its a combination of both the closure of Interchange & the AI timetables, First is only to blame for one of those things. Do you use these routes to know whether or not they are profitable or have reasonable loads? I don't disagree that First has damaged themselves with AI timetables, but you can't ignore the impact the closure of Interchange has had.
 

Tetchytyke

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Do you not think bus use may have dropped in Bradford due to how many of the shops have closed and given the choice, most people will look towards Leeds now.
No. Even if people are looking towards Leeds for their retail therapy, you have to get to Leeds and Leeds really is a PITA to drive to.

The 633 serves Shipley and the 615/619 serve Bingley, so even if people were travelling on public transport into Leeds and wishing to avoid Bradford, they'd still need to use the bus to get to the train station.
It will be interesting when franchising starts if the combined authority does publish transparent patronage numbers without any smoke and mirrors so we can see if bus use in Bradford does grow significantly if they remove AI timetables and increase frequencies.
The business case for franchising is based on declining passenger numbers.

Do you use these routes to know whether or not they are profitable or have reasonable loads? I don't disagree that First has damaged themselves with AI timetables, but you can't ignore the impact the closure of Interchange has had.
I'm from Bradford, although I no longer live there I do go back every now and then to see family. When I lived there, the 633 (and its predecessors) was the bus I used.

Wrose, the main area the 633 serves between Bradford and Shipley, has a population of about 6,000. Yet First reckon it can't support two buses an hour? Yeah right.

The closure of the Interchange had a negligible effect on passenger numbers. People heading to Bradford city centre used the stops in Bradford city centre rather than walking up to the Interchange. It's not a long walk to the Interchange but why would you walk there when your bus stops in the city centre?

The routes in question serve the city centre after leaving the Interchange. My experience, both before and after the pedestrianisation, is that 90% of people would get on and off the buses on these routes in the city centre because that was where they were going. I only ever used the bus to the Interchange if I was catching a train and, even then, half the time I got off in the city centre and used Forster Square. The Interchange was only ever really a thing for the buses coming from the south of Bradford because routes like the 576 or the 268 didn't extend beyond the Interchange into the city centre.

The closure of the Interchange was irritating but the replacement stops were right next to the Interchange; IIRC the 633 used a temporary stop outside the Courts.

until the pandemic Transdev managed to keep the Keighley to Bradford service at the 80s 6bph level - they've since dropped it to 4bph, but 6bph in the peaks
And it has brand new buses too.

Apparently the First 622 was at risk of cancellation too, although ultimately it wasn't cancelled- for now. I'm actually a bit surprised it wasn't cancelled, given that it follows the same route as the 662 for the most part.

Transdev are by no means perfect, but compared to First they're light years ahead.
 

YorkRailFan

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The closure of the Interchange was irritating but the replacement stops were right next to the Interchange; IIRC the 633 used a temporary stop outside the Courts
As others have mentioned, waiting at a temporary stop in the cold & rain is unappealing, leading to some perhaps switching to driving. As you mentioned, parking in Bradford is relatively cheap.
And it has brand new buses too.
Although the Electrics on the 662 have a lower seating capacity than their predecessors, the B7RLEs.
 

Andyh82

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Well at the time it was widely reported that closing the Interchange and most city centre stops at the same time, forcing them to use two or three chaotic bus stops with no shelter had a big effect on bus passengers. It was reported regularly in the T&A, and the leader of Bradford council regularly demanded that the combined authority did something about it (you’ll know where I am going with that).

Buses also would get stuck in loads of traffic doing 360 degree loops of various roads as the road layout didn’t allow the turns that were now having to be made to access temporary stops. First would regularly tweet that there were long delays and even added extra buses to some services.

It’s up to you if you want to rewrite this history.
 

Ballyheigue

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Let's be totally blunt as to why buses are poorly used in Bradford, what the hell is there to do in central Bradford apart from Broadway and perhaps the museum? The rest of the city centre has now't worth going to. The Kirkgate shopping centre is the biggest joke going, the only shop attracting anyone to go in there is a pound shop, the rest mostly closed or not worth visiting! You could argue that the City Park area is an attraction, but not between October and late March that's for sure, and with water shortages last Summer the main attraction in City Park, the fountains, wern't worth going to! The city is mostly dead, let's face it, so dead that not even the Mc Donalds in the centre of Bradford was busy in the run up to Christmas, that's how bad it is! As for the new market, I wasn't impressed.
 

mattb7tl

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People overestimate the effects of a town centre. If the state of a town centre had that much impact on how early late or frequently people travel other town centres would not have a usable bus service (Dewsbury, Burnley and all of Lancashire)

Dewsbury is far worse than Bradford, but has a better core network bus service than Huddersfield and Bradford, on par frequencies and better hours of operation. It also has lower usage than both but one operator does not expect unrealistic margins and hence runs a more respectable bus network.

If people are travelling by other forms of transport you have demand for buses.
 

Andyh82

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People overestimate the effects of a town centre. If the state of a town centre had that much impact on how early late or frequently people travel other town centres would not have a usable bus service (Dewsbury, Burnley and all of Lancashire)

Dewsbury is far worse than Bradford, but has a better core network bus service than Huddersfield and Bradford, on par frequencies and better hours of operation. It also has lower usage than both but one operator does not expect unrealistic margins and hence runs a more respectable bus network.

If people are travelling by other forms of transport you have demand for buses.
I’d dispute the idea that Dewsbury has a better bus service, the main network is about the same, the secondary services have been cut just as much as anywhere else. What’s happened to the 253, 262, 278? The 205, 212, 213 were all given up by Arriva and are all now Metro tenders, the 250 is now only once an hour. If you went back even further like some have here with the Bradford discussions there were various other services that don’t run anymore.

This sort of conversation goes round in circles. First cuts something, people say Arriva are better. Six months later Arriva cuts something, everyone then says it’s Arriva who are the worse should quit West Yorks. six months later Transdev reduce something and people say ‘see even Transdev aren’t that good either’
 
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Ballyheigue

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People overestimate the effects of a town centre. If the state of a town centre had that much impact on how early late or frequently people travel other town centres would not have a usable bus service (Dewsbury, Burnley and all of Lancashire)

Dewsbury is far worse than Bradford, but has a better core network bus service than Huddersfield and Bradford, on par frequencies and better hours of operation. It also has lower usage than both but one operator does not expect unrealistic margins and hence runs a more respectable bus network.

If people are travelling by other forms of transport you have demand for buses.
The thing is though, apart from a few areas to the North on Leeds Road and out towards Ravensthorpe, you have to travel into Dewsbury to link up with buses to Leeds where the shops and other attractions are. In Bradford, there are plenty of suburbs with direct access to Leeds by either bus or train (or both) and these are the buses that are well used. If Bradford is to see better bus use it needs something people will travel to. Those living in Cottingley for example have access to Leeds on the 60/A or can use the 662 to Bingley station, and additionally are also a fairly short walk to Bingley, hence why I've not seen many people board/alight on Manor Road on the 615 and 680 to and from Bradford. There is the argument that the 662 in the Bradford area is well used, but that's because of multiple facilities/attractions on route leading to many taking shorter journeys such as Bradford Centre to Lister Park, Saltaire, Bradford City Football Club etc, Bingley Town Centre to Saltaire, Cottingley Crossflatts etc, and so on. A bus route needs something people want to travel to for much of the day and Bradford centre has hardly anything.
 

tbtc

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Easy to criticise First for the state of the 633, sure, but what's the solution?

It's a cross city route with a journey time of just under an hour. Maybe once upon a time, four buses could have provided a reliable half hourly service. But with Bradford's 'unpredictable' traffic, that's not so realistic any more

Do you run the risk of services slowly picking up delays, for the sake of the timetable looking neater?

Whilst cuts from six to five/five to four/ four to three/ three to two an hour can be done without passengers noticing too much, cutting down from half hourly is more difficult. Every forty minutes? Forty five? Neither are easy to remember, but some people might prefer that to every "thirty two" minutes. Or do you bite the bullet and drop to hourly (so the timetable is neater)?

I suspect that the answer will be something like "magic up the fifth bus needed to make a clock face half hourly service work, with very long layovers" (despite the trend of droping fare paying passengers), maybe Weaver will find the extra buses for these kind of routes

i.e. whilst the status quo clearly isn't perfect, the problems a route like this has go beyond First/ deregulation etc
 

Steve440

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This whole idea of reducing the peak time frequency to suit the number of vehicles when extra running time is required is a relatively recent phenomenon. When I worked for First up until 2009, I was a regular driver on Bramley's 49 route which at that time had a frequency of every 10 minutes and when extra running time had to be added in the morning peak and evening peak, an extra vehicle was slotted in to maintain the 10 minute frequency. The same applied on a number of other routes. Those were the good old days!
 

JWalker127

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The thing is though, apart from a few areas to the North on Leeds Road and out towards Ravensthorpe, you have to travel into Dewsbury to link up with buses to Leeds where the shops and other attractions are. In Bradford, there are plenty of suburbs with direct access to Leeds by either bus or train (or both) and these are the buses that are well used. If Bradford is to see better bus use it needs something people will travel to. Those living in Cottingley for example have access to Leeds on the 60/A or can use the 662 to Bingley station, and additionally are also a fairly short walk to Bingley, hence why I've not seen many people board/alight on Manor Road on the 615 and 680 to and from Bradford. There is the argument that the 662 in the Bradford area is well used, but that's because of multiple facilities/attractions on route leading to many taking shorter journeys such as Bradford Centre to Lister Park, Saltaire, Bradford City Football Club etc, Bingley Town Centre to Saltaire, Cottingley Crossflatts etc, and so on. A bus route needs something people want to travel to for much of the day and Bradford centre has hardly anything.
About Cottingley, yes there is access to the 662 and 60/60A but to get to the stops these go from you have to walk atleast 10/20 minutes down the hill to the main road. Cottingley is on top of a big hill with steep inclines. When walking from Bingley there's basically no way to avoid the hills so lots of people use the 680 for the short journey up and down the hill and to the BRI but can't rely on it because its often 30+ mins late during rush hour and if it has a bad morning the delays carry through the whole day. The AI slop timetables don't help with their irregular intervals and the extra time waiting at Bingley station is mostly eaten up by the delays anyway. The 615 used to be a decent service in the evening with a bus every hour until 11 up and down into Bingley until recently when they got rid of the 21:xx from bingley with the last bus being at nearly 11pm leaving a nearly 3 hour gap between 20:14 and 22:56. Hopefully whoever takes them on can do a better job.
 

Ballyheigue

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Kirkgate shopping centre closed in June 2025.
That's funny as I was in there in December with a number of other shoppers, not many mind but something like 25 or so

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About Cottingley, yes there is access to the 662 and 60/60A but to get to the stops these go from you have to walk atleast 10/20 minutes down the hill to the main road. Cottingley is on top of a big hill with steep inclines. When walking from Bingley there's basically no way to avoid the hills so lots of people use the 680 for the short journey up and down the hill and to the BRI but can't rely on it because its often 30+ mins late during rush hour and if it has a bad morning the delays carry through the whole day. The AI slop timetables don't help with their irregular intervals and the extra time waiting at Bingley station is mostly eaten up by the delays anyway. The 615 used to be a decent service in the evening with a bus every hour until 11 up and down into Bingley until recently when they got rid of the 21:xx from bingley with the last bus being at nearly 11pm leaving a nearly 3 hour gap between 20:14 and 22:56. Hopefully whoever takes them on can do a better job.
It's not all that far for most people from Manor Road to the main road as I've walked it many a time myself, yes it's an incline (not that steep to be honest) but it's doable for most able bodied reasonably fit people. I've also walked from Manor Drive to Bingley station many a time via the ginnel that leads down to the posher looking White houses, takes roughly 25 to 30 minutes.
 

Deerfold

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That's funny as I was in there in December with a number of other shoppers, not many mind but something like 25 or so
Very odd. The market's closure was reported by the BBC and T&A amongst others. I assumed the shops had gone too. It's reported it will be demolished this year.

T&A said:
Times are changing in Bradford's markets, and this weekend marks the final day of trading for the stallholders in the Kirkgate and Oastler halls.
Kirkgate Market opened in the 19th Century and Oastler Market in the 1930s, and both were important destinations in the years before online shopping saw footfall decline.
On 28 June, they will shut and will eventually be demolished to make way for 1,000 new homes as part of a regeneration scheme.
Traders have instead been offered stands at the new Darley Street Market, and many told the BBC they were optimistic about moving to a more modern space.
Once I'd seen that, I didn't go and check.

It's not all that far for most people from Manor Road to the main road as I've walked it many a time myself, yes it's an incline (not that steep to be honest) but it's doable for most able bodied reasonably fit people. I've also walked from Manor Drive to Bingley station many a time via the ginnel that leads down to the posher looking White houses, takes roughly 25 to 30 minutes.
That's further than most people are prepared to walk for a bus.
 

YorkRailFan

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B9TL 37786 has been repainted to Ultraviolet.

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Driver Trainer B7RLE 66762 has been withdrawn and replaced by B7RLE 69455 moving from South Yorkshire to Halifax.

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B9TL 37364 has been repainted to Ultraviolet.

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FirstGroup owned York Pullman has been having a clear out of older buses, possibly ahead of some transfers from Cornwall next week.

B7TLs 32120, 32243, 32178, 36403 & 36405 have been withdrawn.

According to UK Buses fleet list as of September 2025, Pullman has 36166-72, 37672, 37680, 37709/10, 37718, 37720/1/3/4/6 and 37747 from other First opcos.

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B9TL 36313 has been repainted to Ultraviolet.
 
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Tetchytyke

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Easy to criticise First for the state of the 633, sure, but what's the solution?

It's a cross city route with a journey time of just under an hour. Maybe once upon a time, four buses could have provided a reliable half hourly service. But with Bradford's 'unpredictable' traffic, that's not so realistic any more
First keep chopping and changing where the cross-city services go to, so that's really not an excuse. The 633 currently goes to Tyersal. Until a couple of years ago it went to West Bowling. Before that, it was self-contained. Before that, it was extended in the other direction to the top of Coach Road by the school. Before that, it went to Scholes and/or Brighouse.

Bradford's traffic isn't particularly unpredictable. I can tell you where the hotspots are. They are in exactly the same place as they were 30 years ago when I was a kid living in Wrose: the junction between Queens Road and Manningham Lane, the junction between Canal Road and Kings Road, and the junction at the bottom of Carr Lane.



Well at the time it was widely reported that closing the Interchange and most city centre stops at the same time, forcing them to use two or three chaotic bus stops with no shelter had a big effect on bus passengers.
It was widely reported by First, who- let's face it- have never let a good excuse go to waste.

It's also irrelevant. The road network has stabilised and they're only now saying the services are no longer economical. Yeah, right.

Very odd. The market's closure was reported by the BBC and T&A amongst others. I assumed the shops had gone too. It's reported it will be demolished this year.
The market has gone, but the shopping centre is still open. Not that there are many shops left in there, though.

t's not all that far for most people from Manor Road to the main road as I've walked it many a time myself, yes it's an incline (not that steep to be honest) but it's doable for most able bodied reasonably fit people.
It is a long walk from the Hope Hill View end of Cottingley estate down to the main road. Fine if you're reasonably fit and you can cut down the back, but the walk that way isn't great in the dark. It's not a steep hill, but it's steep enough if you have any sort of mobility issue. I'd not be routinely walking from there into Bingley.

When I was at Cottingley Manor school (I'm showing my age now) it took me 5-10 minutes (depending on the traffic light gods) to walk from the school gates to the Shipley/Bradford-bound bus stop on the main road. And I was a fit teenager. An older person, or someone with any sort of mobility issue, isn't going to be walking that fast.
 

Andyh82

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It’s true that the road network has stabilised, but it’s stabilised in a more congested state, as there is now the same amount of traffic on less roads. The junction at the bottom of Manchester Road is particularly congested now effecting all the South Bradford and Great Horton/Little Horton services at peak times.

One thing I’ve noticed is that guided bus way services now often get blocked at each junction due to the amount of traffic wanting to turn right (to bail out of Manchester Road) queuing across the end of each part of the guideway. Naturally nobody leaves a gap for buses to get through.
 

D6130

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Road closure of the A646 between Hebden Bridge and Todmorden again from 20 00 tonight, due to the discovery of yet another sinkhole in the Charlestown-Eastwood area. Buses from Halifax turning round at Mytholm turning circle then going back to Mytholmroyd and diverting via Cragg Vale, Blackstone Edge and Littleborough. Duration of the closure will depend on what the engineers find tonight. Last time it was six weeks!
 

Andyh82

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Road closure of the A646 between Hebden Bridge and Todmorden again from 20 00 tonight, due to the discovery of yet another sinkhole in the Charlestown-Eastwood area. Buses from Halifax turning round at Mytholm turning circle then going back to Mytholmroyd and diverting via Cragg Vale, Blackstone Edge and Littleborough. Duration of the closure will depend on what the engineers find tonight. Last time it was six weeks!
Looking on BusTimes and Todmorden’s allocation of double decks is being swapped for Streetlites when they get to Halifax.

The diversion route via Littleborough of course having a low bridge
 

Tetchytyke

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The junction at the bottom of Manchester Road is particularly congested now effecting all the South Bradford and Great Horton/Little Horton services at peak times.
The junction itself isn't any more congested than it was before the road changes, the Croft Street/Senior Way/Manchester Road junction was always very busy and people always tried to rat-run through the bottom of West Bowling.

The issue there has been the closure of the very bottom of Little Horton Lane; if it had been my choice, I'd have left it open as a bus-only road. Not that those changes affect any of the services which First have just pulled.

Buses from Halifax turning round at Mytholm turning circle then going back to Mytholmroyd and diverting via Cragg Vale, Blackstone Edge and Littleborough.
Looks like they've split the service, running Burnley-Todmorden-Hebden Bridge (Mytholm turning circle) and Hebden Bridge (Mytholm turning circle)-Halifax.

Not that you'd know from looking at either the First or the Metro websites...
 

Deerfold

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Looks like they've split the service, running Burnley-Todmorden-Hebden Bridge (Mytholm turning circle) and Hebden Bridge (Mytholm turning circle)-Halifax.

Not that you'd know from looking at either the First or the Metro websites...

Services affected: 590, 591, 592, 596
Significant disruption on A646 Halifax Road, Calder Valley

Updated: 10 February 2026​

Buses running Mytholmroyd - Cragg Vale - Todmorden (and reverse)
590 and 591 are diverting from Todmorden to Halifax via Littleborough, Blackstone Edge, Cragg Vale, Mytholmroyd then Hebden Bridge. Both directions.
592 will complete the onward journey.

591 will be a single decker and will not be able to serve Mount Lane, service will operate via Red Lees Road

No timetable though for a major diversion - last time they never released a timetable, even though it went on for weeks, just "approximate" start and end times after a few days.

EDIT - they're doing their usual annoying habit of updating the text, but not updating the date that says when it was updated. It's been updated at some point today.
Services 590 & 591 are diverting between Mytholmroyd and Todmorden via New Road, Cragg Road, Blackstone Old Edge Road, Turvin Road, Halifax Road, Todmorden Road and Rochdale Road.

Service 592 is operating to Hebden Bridge turning circle, returning to Mytholmroyd and then diverting to Todmorden via New Road, Cragg Road, Blackstone Edge Old Road, Turvin Road, Halifax Road, Todmorden Road and Rochdale Road.

Diversions are in both directions.
 
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Tetchytyke

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EDIT - they're doing their usual annoying habit of updating the text, but not updating the date that says when it was updated. It's been updated at some point today.
I thought I was going mad, it definitely wasn't there when I made my comment.
 

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