First West Coast New Stock

[rail-britain]

It's a shame the DfT don't have some vision and extend this order to include additional units for the TPE franchise, although this may be possible, to replace the initial EMU which TPE will receive
Six coaches is rather large for Scotland - Manchester, however the demand would certainly allow for further simplification of the timetable and services, as well more common units and public service

 

[F Great Eastern]

Lets hope if First do go with Alstom which seems likely, they have more luck than their last two orders from them. (175's and 180's)

 

[tbtc]

I think this purchase of new tilting electrics would seem to indicate that HS2 is already dead or soon will be.

If HS2 was going to move forward at a reasonable pace it would be cheaper to retain the Voyagers until such time as we are swimming in tilting electrics after the Birmingham and Manchester trains are cut back to hourly in the face of 4tph 400m double decks.

Nothing to do with HS2 - this is about the next twenty years, and putting these additional trains to replace the Voyagers so that the Voyagers can run to unelectrified places like Shrewsbury.

It's a shame the DfT don't have some vision and extend this order to include additional units for the TPE franchise, although this may be possible, to replace the initial EMU which TPE will receive
Six coaches is rather large for Scotland - Manchester, however the demand would certainly allow for further simplification of the timetable and services, as well more common units and public service

Six coaches are far too much for a lot of Scotland - Manchester services, but then might be insufficient for some trips (esp weekends) - it seems to have a significantly more varied demand pattern than most routes - I've been on some almost empty ones and some rammed ones.

As I've said earlier, I expect more of these ("baby pendos") to be ordered for the Scotland - Manchester route, but they may wait to see how the 350s perform so that they can assess how increased capacity affects numbers (are the short 185s holding back demand at times?).

Lets hope if First do go with Alstom which seems likely, they have more luck than their last two orders from them. (175's and 180's)

Yes. Least said about those two small orders...

 

[YorkshireBear]

It's a shame the DfT don't have some vision and extend this order to include additional units for the TPE franchise, although this may be possible, to replace the initial EMU which TPE will receive
Six coaches is rather large for Scotland - Manchester, however the demand would certainly allow for further simplification of the timetable and services, as well more common units and public service

I dont think 6 coaches is too long for scotland manchester i reckon 6*23m carriges is about bang on (taking into account 20 year growth, sparks effect and also some good marketing). TPE currently run doubled up 185s on the route which is no different.

 

[WatcherZero]

The problem which makes formations difficult for that route is that while four, possibly 6 in future cars is okay for the route mon-thu on fri and sat it requires 6 possibly 8 cars in future.

I agree that the existing contract options may allow the supply of mini pendos without retendering but part of the attraction of them was they could be doubled up in future if required to make a full length 12 car unit, though that may require further minor platform alterations SDO of the power cars should allow them to fit in the platforms lengthened for the 11 cars.

 

[HSTEd]

Though I have to say would it be possible to introduce the new services without a new build of tilting stock? If the answer is no then what's the choice? Drop any new services until HS2 arrives?

Some IEPs on CrossCountry, cascade some of it's Super voyagers to ICWC to provide the extra service you want after they have tilt reinstalled.

That is the proper stopgap measure IMO.

This way we are left with additional tilting rolling stock we have no use for.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Nothing to do with HS2 - this is about the next twenty years, and putting these additional trains to replace the Voyagers so that the Voyagers can run to unelectrified places like Shrewsbury.

But we are going to get 15 years or so useful life out of these new electrics, at best before they are rendered surplus to requirements by HSa/b.

Phase 1 frees six sets on the Birmingham trains alone if the service is cut back to hourly to Wolverhampton.

 

[rail-britain]

Six coaches are far too much for a lot of Scotland - Manchester services, but then might be insufficient for some trips (esp weekends) - it seems to have a significantly more varied demand pattern than most routes - I've been on some almost empty ones and some rammed ones

As above, it is already known the 3 car services cannot cope and there is already doubt about 4 car services when EMU commence

There is also the issue about the revised West Coast timetable, between Preston and Scotland
This effectively ends some direct links on Birmingham and Euston services, so such passengers will also have to travel on TPE services, changing at either Carlisle or Preston

Equally, many TPE services are already operating as pairs of 3 car services, so a simplified timetable using a new 6 coach EMU (to the same specification as the InterCity West Coast franchise) would balance out the inevitable demand increase
If this doesn't happen then word of mouth and poor reviews, about overcrowding, will simply push passengers away

 

[150001]

In all seriousness, the 390 is an old design now and like others have commented the window has now closed for further orders of that design.

So any new stock, even if a Pendolino from Alstom, will be non standard anyway.

The obvious solution is simply to stipulate in the tender that it must be compatible with 390s (or at very minimum compatible in emergencies, e.g. as the Voyagers are).

Why can it not just be a 390! Really it would be better just to have the one design and stock, surely Alstom if they want the custom can build 11 more!

 

[asylumxl]

Why can it not just be a 390! Really it would be better just to have the one design and stock, surely Alstom if they want the custom can build 11 more!

Ask Alstom.

All the various jigs etc don't last forever, and certain things may or may not be manufactured or may be manufactured by a different company who have made alterations.

Building trains isn't really that simple you know.

 

[cj_1985]

as much as we would all love to know immediatly just what sort of rolling stock solution FWC has planned... fact is that we are not likely to know for a few weeks (earliest) or upto a year. and after that confirmation its probably going to be close to 2 or 3 years before they are delivered.

Being sensible, its probably highly likely to be some version of the pendo... as the existing depots are all kitted out for that class of stock, the engineers are trained, the pendos have already been design approved for use on NR infrastructure.. not to mention the TOC will already have its staff trained on the type.. or a variant of the type...

that being said, we could end up with the 221s being fitted with an extra carriage with all the OHLE kit that had been proposed several months ago.


the only thing i would say as a hope that IF the decision is baby pendos... that someone has some common sense and (if possible) orders additional carriages to lengthen all 9 car pendos up to 11 car lengths...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There is also the issue about the revised West Coast timetable, between Preston and Scotland
This effectively ends some direct links on Birmingham and Euston services, so such passengers will also have to travel on TPE services, changing at either Carlisle or Preston

Not sure what you mean here.
The new franchise essentially has just the same Birmingham-Scotland services as now.
I can see the opportunity to send more of them to EDB rather than GLC because of the extra Euston-Glasgow services.
Where is this service reduction proposal?

 

[swt_passenger]

that being said, we could end up with the 221s being fitted with an extra carriage with all the OHLE kit that had been proposed several months ago.

No we can't, really. They clearly announced that they are to be 11 new 6 car EMUs to be used in addition to the Voyagers, the latter being cascaded within the franchise area to allow increased services away from the electrified mainline.

Secondly, it has been explained that the additional carriage cannot work with the 221s - hence it only ever being discussed recently in the context of the XC fleet.

 

[cj_1985]

No we can't, really. They clearly announced that they are to be 11 new 6 car EMUs to be used in addition to the Voyagers, the latter being cascaded within the franchise area to allow increased services away from the electrified mainline.

Secondly, it has been explained that the additional carriage cannot work with the 221s - hence it only ever being discussed recently in the context of the XC fleet.

i must have missed that nugget of info...

as for " They clearly announced that they are to be 11 new 6 car EMUs to be used in addition to the Voyagers"

that may well be what was in a basic press release... but that doesnt change the fact that on the whole, we know very little about what is going to happen with regards to the franchises stock... hence my comment "as much as we would all love to know immediatly just what sort of rolling stock solution FWC has planned... fact is that we are not likely to know for a few weeks (earliest) or upto a year" applicable not just to the new 125mph EMUs

 

[BananaRepublic]

....as much as we would all love to know immediatly just what sort of rolling stock solution FWC has planned... fact is that we are not likely to know for a few weeks (earliest) or upto a year. and after that confirmation its probably going to be close to 2 or 3 years before they are delivered.

The expected delivery and in-service date has already been stated in yesterday's announcement.
The only thing missing is a formal announcement of an order for these trains and confirmation of what they are.

the only thing i would say as a hope that IF the decision is baby pendos... that someone has some common sense and (if possible) orders additional carriages to lengthen all 9 car pendos up to 11 car lengths...

Sadly, extension of the remaining 21 9-car Pendolino sets to 11-car was not included in the announcement; which can only mean it is not a franchise commitment. As such First have no obligation to do it.

It will be interesting to see if such a proposal was part of Virgin's bid.

 

[rail-britain]

Where is this service reduction proposal?

Service changes currently under emarbgo but due for release shortly
DfT have been waiting for the West Coast franchise to be awarded and the 2014 timetable specification confirmed with the new franchise provider
The TPE timetable has already been confirmed and clearly shows some services currently operated by West Coast (Virgin Trains) swapping over to TPE

 

[David10]

Why can it not just be a 390! Really it would be better just to have the one design and stock, surely Alstom if they want the custom can build 11 more!

Because it no longer meets current safety standards, special permission was only granted to build the 4 recently delivered because it was a small order. The option to build anymore has now expired, that's not to say the 390's successor couldn't be used.

 

[tbtc]

But we are going to get 15 years or so useful life out of these new electrics, at best before they are rendered surplus to requirements by HSa/b.

One minute enthusiasts are complaining about not having enough EMUs to cope with all the new electrification. Now we are complaining about a "surplus" of EMUs?

What do you intend to build over the next fifteen years to cope with increased demand on the WCML then? Or do we just keep Voyagers running under the wires Birmingham - Glasgow services (and build no more stock)?

As above, it is already known the 3 car services cannot cope and there is already doubt about 4 car services when EMU commence

Three coach DMUs are fine for a number of TPE services north of Preston, but nothing like enough at the weekend.

The four coach EMUs will come with a frequency increase too (plus not having to deal with the busy flows through Bolton).

 

[WatcherZero]

In an article on Details on the Shrewsbury and Telford’s service First say they would do a complete refurb of the Voyagers interior seating, luggage space and Wi-Fi over the first two and half years of the service (the service starting 2016 at the earliest).

 

[DjU]

Just to add to this, over the way it posted that when First Group drew up their bid they had two different proposals for the 6 car EMU's. Obviously they would have to already have a pretty good idea of what they were going with as the costings are part of the franchise!

Anyway it was intially said one offer was the Baby Pendolino from Alstom that every one is already aware of, and that the second spec was NOT from Bombardier. (So that rules out any EMU Voyager type unit).

Earlier today it was then clarified that the 2nd comapny was neither Bombardier NOR Hitachi. (So that rules out any tilting 395 type units nor any IEP derivative)

Then finally when it was pointed out that leaves Siemens or CAF as the biggest players left (obviously there are left-field choices like CSRE) it was said that it was NOT Siemens.

So it's likely between Alstom and a company that is not Bombardier, Hitachi or Siemens.

 

[WatcherZero]

If it was CAF it would have to be a new product, their high speed trains a bit over engineered for the job and their regional train has a top speed of 100mph and while it has passive provision for standard gauge bogies is pretty much built to Iberian gauge making shrinking it to our gauge next to impossible.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So it's likely between Alstom and a company that is not Bombardier, Hitachi or Siemens.

No TOC wants a one-horse race, or the supplier will take advantage.
But it would be madness to buy a small fleet of unique EMUs with different maintainers to the main fleet.

Hovering in the background is the GW need for Thames Valley 125mph EMUs, and no doubt First are busy negotiating with suppliers for an offer to make in their GW bid.
There might just be some synergy between the two fleets if First win GW, though the GW units will of course not tilt and will not be long-distance units.
The obvious GW contender is the Hitachi 395.
The fleet size for this will also be quite small - 20 units?

 

[aylesbury]

Every time I have seen a Birmingham Glasgow service it has been very busyand it will make sense for electrics as the majority of trains on the WCML north of Carslile are deisel ,what a waste of infrastructure.Trains to Manchester from Scotland should be electric as well but what about Bolton London?

 

[150001]

How come the 390s don't conform to new safety standard's? Also CSRE maybe a good idea with their Loco idea. I did see one of their adverts once in Today's Railways and it said "compatibility with UK rolling stock." But really Alstom is the best contender for obvious reasons. For GW maybe this CAF product; it can be made to run at 125 mph (200kph) and it is a regional design. http://www.caf.es/ingles/productos/proyecto.php?id=614&cod=9&sec=desc It seems a good option if a UK version could be offered .

 

[ainsworth74]

How come the 390s don't conform to new safety standard's?

Because they were designed in the late 90s and safety standards have moved on since then.

 

[150001]

Thanks. If Bombardier weren't out of the running then the Swedish bombardier X50 Regina units would be perfect! http://bombardier.com/en/transportation/products-services/projects/details?docID=0901260d80010180# The SJ versions are 125 mph running and are on a UK gauge; they're very much like the Aventra actually.

 

[sprinterguy]

Thanks. If Bombardier weren't out of the running then the Swedish bombardier X50 Regina units would be perfect! http://bombardier.com/en/transportation/products-services/projects/details?docID=0901260d80010180# The SJ versions are 125 mph running and are on a UK gauge; they're very much like the Aventra actually.

Most of the world's railways utilise the UK standard gauge for the distance between the rails. However the trains that run on them are built to a larger loading gauge than that of the UK rail network.

 

[WatcherZero]

How come the 390s don't conform to new safety standard's? Also CSRE maybe a good idea with their Loco idea. I did see one of their adverts once in Today's Railways and it said "compatibility with UK rolling stock." But really Alstom is the best contender for obvious reasons. For GW maybe this CAF product; it can be made to run at 125 mph (200kph) and it is a regional design. http://www.caf.es/ingles/productos/proyecto.php?id=614&cod=9&sec=desc It seems a good option if a UK version could be offered .

They reportedly can offer this 'compatibility' as they acquired UK maintenence and suppliers which were in possession of the complete Sprinter blueprints for manufacturing some spare parts and maintenence work, they dont actually have the rights to the design but have everything they need to clone a compatible unit.

 

[Manchester77]

Just a quick question but afaik the voyagers first will inherit go off lease at the end of 2016. So if a lot of the new services first promise to introduce begin in 2016 then will first have to re new their contract with the leesing company?
Forgive me if this is a bit pointless but im not familiure with train leesing procedures.

Thanks

 

[ainsworth74]

Yes they'll have to renew their lease on the Voyagers.

 

[Manchester77]

Yes they'll have to renew their lease on the Voyagers.

Thanks