First Transpennine Express - Loss making contract

[johnnychips]

Just like to say that, while everybody is concentrating on TPE North, I do use the South service a lot and find it and its staff excellent, apart from overcrowding, which hopefully will be solved by 6 car 185s eventually.

 

[Andyh82]

Poor old Liverpool has been thoroughly stitched up every which way with this new timetable. I wouldn't put it past them the shut down Lime Street next.

How do you work that one out?

Lime Street has the same TPE frequency as before but now gets everywhere people want to go much faster than previously?

 

[Dentonian]

Apologies for picking but...

There is no company running trains by the name of ATN.

TransPennine Express do not serve Wigan.

Am I really going to get pulled up for using an anacromym on this site? ! As for TPE stopping at Wigan, I had forgotten they no longer do so. Guess that s somewhere I won't be visiting again.

 

[Foxcover]

It was certainly irritating last week to have to leave the Edinburgh-Manchester Airport TPE at Preston and wait for a later Glasgow-Euston train to take me to Wigan NW, knowing the TPE was going the same way but skipping the stop now.

 

[_toommm_]

The Northern stopping service that takes 25-30 minutes longer used to be more expensive, but competition is kicking in and they've just introduced some advance saver fares at £4.50 single.

I wanted to avoid posting how much i pay on TPE - even though it’s publicly available data, but even buying the night before I only pay £2.45 to £2.95. It’s ridiculously cheap and it’s cheaper than coaches which is very rare

 

[Robertj21a]

I wanted to avoid posting how much i pay on TPE - even though it’s publicly available data, but even buying the night before I only pay £2.45 to £2.95. It’s ridiculously cheap and it’s cheaper than coaches which is very rare

First Group need every penny they can get hold of.........

 

[221129]

Am I really going to get pulled up for using an anacromym on this site? !

An acronym that doesn't mean anything? Then yes you probably are...

 

[BeHereNow]

Arriva Trains Northern. Used to work for them!

 

[221129]

Arriva Trains Northern. Used to work for them!

Which is no longer a thing so why bring them into a current discussion about TPE?

 

[BeHereNow]

I think they are just to using the old name. Now ARN, only a key away...

 

[bb21]

Can we move on from the pointless bickering please?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think they are just to using the old name. Now ARN, only a key away...

Arriva Rail North are now a quite different company from Arriva Trains Northern, having in the interim been bought by DB.
Their rail operating company is Arriva UK Trains, who run XC, ATW and Chiltern franchises as well as Northern, also Arriva Traincare at Crewe.

 

[jayah]

How do you work that one out?

Lime Street has the same TPE frequency as before but now gets everywhere people want to go much faster than previously?

It has borne the brunt of the Northern timetable fail and lost connections to the north now that TPE don't stop at Wigan.

 

[greyman42]

I wanted to avoid posting how much i pay on TPE - even though it’s publicly available data, but even buying the night before I only pay £2.45 to £2.95. It’s ridiculously cheap and it’s cheaper than coaches which is very rare

If the services that are available for these fares are carrying mainly fresh air then £2.95 is better than nothing.

 

[KevinTurvey]

Apart from the Cleethorpes section of the operation, just about every TP train I've ever been on is full, with some seriously overcrowded. Amazes me how they can't turn a profit or break even. Some of the walk on fares are not cheap either, much more so than ARN days. Liverpool-York for instance is over £50 even off-peak.

 

[jayah]

If the services that are available for these fares are carrying mainly fresh air then £2.95 is better than nothing.

Given who we are talking about they will be 3 cars and totally packed. A lot of TOC competition is very wasteful from a taxpayer point of view as it inevitably results in even more tiny trains clogging up the network, followed by demands for £bn of investment in infrastructure to help them run more punctually.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Apart from the Cleethorpes section of the operation, just about every TP train I've ever been on is full, with some seriously overcrowded. Amazes me how they can't turn a profit or break even. Some of the walk on fares are not cheap either, much more so than ARN days. Liverpool-York for instance is over £50 even off-peak.

It depends what the premium payments to DfT are. Remember railway profitability is an entirely artificial construct, based on deducting the premium payments and operational costs from the subsidy grants and revenue. If the leftover is positive, there’s a profit. Franchises generally aim for about 2 - 4% profit margin, if the number is bigger then the TOC wins (and taxpayer loses out), whereas if it’s smaller or negative, the franchise gets into financial difficulty and ultimately, everybody loses.

You could probably create an effective money-laundering scheme using railway financing. It is a crazy money-go-round.

Edit - This is why the phrase ‘operating profit’ is sometimes rolled out - this gives a true reflection of whether a franchise is covering its basic operating costs or not. Obviously it ignores many operational costs which are not in the franchise’s control, such as signallers (Network Rail).

 

[LOL The Irony]

It has borne the brunt of the Northern timetable fail and lost connections to the north now that TPE don't stop at Wigan.

I'm surprised that the DfT hasn't told TPE to take up some of the gap left by Northern between Manchester & Preston until this debacle is over.

 

[CAF397]

Using what extra resources? TPE are struggling like Northern are, due to Network Rail overruning projects.

Their Scotland services should already be running via Bolton

 

[LOL The Irony]

Using what extra resources? TPE are struggling like Northern are, due to Network Rail overruning projects.

Their Scotland services should already be running via Bolton

Stopping services at Wigan on a temporay basis.

 

[Starmill]

Stopping services at Wigan on a temporay basis.

This would cause them to miss their paths.

 

[jayah]

I'm surprised that the DfT hasn't told TPE to take up some of the gap left by Northern between Manchester & Preston until this debacle is over.

It should not be up to the DfT to micromanage this. It is within the gift of the TOCs concerned to take some collective responsibility instead of sitting on their hands waiting for the DfT to do something.

 

[greyman42]

Given who we are talking about they will be 3 cars and totally packed. A lot of TOC competition is very wasteful from a taxpayer point of view as it inevitably results in even more tiny trains clogging up the network, followed by demands for £bn of investment in infrastructure to help them run more punctually.

Would they be packed without the very cheap fares?

 

[B&I]

It should not be up to the DfT to micromanage this. It is within the gift of the TOCs concerned to take some collective responsibility instead of sitting on their hands waiting for the DfT to do something.

I think you are mistaking TOCs for actual commerically-minded entrepreunerial concerns, rather than subsidy junkies doing the bare minimum for the captive market in public services parcelled out to them

 

[158756]

It should not be up to the DfT to micromanage this. It is within the gift of the TOCs concerned to take some collective responsibility instead of sitting on their hands waiting for the DfT to do something.

Everything Northern does loses huge amounts of money. TPE may as well burn the cash. Plus there would presumably be penalties for the disruption caused to their own services in trying to do Northern's job. This should be blatantly obvious to anyone at the DfT - anything you want a franchise to do, bar a few in the South East or Intercity market, must be explicitly specified in the contract.

 

[jayah]

Would they be packed without the very cheap fares?

Putting together the anecdotes, there are lots of cheap fares and very few trains that aren't full.

 

[jayah]

I think you are mistaking TOCs for actual commerically-minded entrepreunerial concerns, rather than subsidy junkies doing the bare minimum for the captive market in public services parcelled out to them

We are talking about a few extra calls. Even the rapacious, subsidy hungry, risk averse privateers can work that out between themselves surely?

 

[The_Engineer]

It has borne the brunt of the Northern timetable fail and lost connections to the north now that TPE don't stop at Wigan.

But soon you will have TPE Lime Street to Scotland services with new shiny electric trains! In the meantime, change at Preston - simple.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I believe the only TOCs which actually don't require a net subsidy, once you include Network Rail's enormous subsidy, are VTEC and SWR. However, at least the former we know is (was) simply being propped up financially by its owner, with the real level of premiums that could sustainably be returned to the DfT being significantly less.

The reality is that the railway can't, as a net, be financially independent. That would require significant fare increases, or perhaps the abolition of yet more cheap fares (e.g. Advances, CDRs). Until it's financially independent it will always be in the control of the purse-string holders.

 

[B&I]

We are talking about a few extra calls. Even the rapacious, subsidy hungry, risk averse privateers can work that out between themselves surely?

It seems not