First time Fare Evasion

[Greenwh]

Hi all

I had an incident occur yesterday which I’m really worrying myself over.

I was running late to work and forgot to buy my train ticket on the Trainline app, when I got to the station my train was also late so when I went to purchase the ticket for the correct time it wouldn’t allow me to, I thought rather than get on the train with no ticket I should just buy one for any time so I quickly went on the app and bought the next ticket.

The conductor scanned my ticket on the train and everything was ok, so I assumed it was ok that I’d bought a ticket for a later time. It wasn’t until I got to the barrier at Leeds that I was pulled to one side and told I’d paid for ‘off peak’ instead of normal ‘peak’ time. I explained my situation and said I’d pay the correct fare as it was a mistake, but they said they had to take my details and I’d hear from Northern Rail.

I’ve never had this happen before and am really worried. I’ve been googling and reading all sorts of awful stories about fare evasion. It really was just an absent minded mistake as I was rushing and stressed due to being late for work.

What will happen next?

 

[island]

You will get a letter in due course asking you to explain/comment on what happened and when you receive this please post it up and we can advise. (Cover all personal identifying information.)

Assuming you’ve not come to the attention of the railway previously for ticket violations, it’s very likely you will be able to settle the matter without going to court, usually they will ask for around £100 plus the fare for your journey, with no credit for any amount you paid for an incorrect journey. That will be the end of the matter.

Others will be along to advise on the possibility that you should have been charged an excess fare instead of being reported for prosecution, and how to take forward a challenge to the process on this basis. I believe a report for prosecution was an option open to the railway; this is not a matter on which there is yet a consensus.

It is crucial regardless of the above that you buy the correct ticket going forward, using the station booking office or ticket machine (if any) where apps do not offer you the ticket you want.

 

[Greenwh]

You will get a letter in due course asking you to explain/comment on what happened and when you receive this please post it up and we can advise. (Cover all personal identifying information.)

Assuming you’ve not come to the attention of the railway previously for ticket violations, it’s very likely you will be able to settle the matter without going to court, usually they will ask for around £100 plus the fare for your journey, with no credit for any amount you paid for an incorrect journey. That will be the end of the matter.

Others will be along to advise on the possibility that you should have been charged an excess fare instead of being reported for prosecution, and how to take forward a challenge to the process on this basis. I believe a report for prosecution was an option open to the railway; this is not a matter on which there is yet a consensus.

It is crucial regardless of the above that you buy the correct ticket going forward, using the station booking office or ticket machine (if any) where apps do not offer you the ticket you want.

Thank you very much for your response.

I’ll definitely post the letter on here when I receive it.

No I’ve never had this happen before and I’d be happy to pay a fine to settle out of court. Although it was just a mistake, I do understand how serious it is. I’ve just checked and the actual difference in fare was 80p, so I’m assuming I’ll need to pay that plus £100 fine?

Yes going forward I’ll definitely be buying my ticket in advance, going to start doing it the night before my travel as don’t want to go through this ever again!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jan 2024 ==

I just wanted to add that the train ticket I bought on the way to work was an open return off peak ticket (should have been open return peak) but I did not use this ticket again on my way home. I bought a single ticket instead.

Should include this in my letter of explanation? Just so they know I didn’t use that incorrect open return ticket again.

 

[Sheffcaster202]

Others will be along to advise on the possibility that you should have been charged an excess fare instead of being reported for prosecution,

It’s possible that the OP was dealt with by Carlisle Support Services at Leeds who do not have the ability to deal with excess fares/selling tickets etc
They only issue penalty fares or TIRs

 

[30907]

It’s possible that the OP was dealt with by Carlisle Support Services at Leeds who do not have the ability to deal with excess fares/selling tickets etc
They only issue penalty fares or TIRs

As they haven't issued a PF, if a TIR is issued, surely the correct amount payable is simply the difference between Offpeak and Peak fares, nothing more?

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi all

I had an incident occur yesterday which I’m really worrying myself over.

I was running late to work and forgot to buy my train ticket on the Trainline app, when I got to the station my train was also late so when I went to purchase the ticket for the correct time it wouldn’t allow me to, I thought rather than get on the train with no ticket I should just buy one for any time so I quickly went on the app and bought the next ticket.

The conductor scanned my ticket on the train and everything was ok, so I assumed it was ok that I’d bought a ticket for a later time. It wasn’t until I got to the barrier at Leeds that I was pulled to one side and told I’d paid for ‘off peak’ instead of normal ‘peak’ time. I explained my situation and said I’d pay the correct fare as it was a mistake, but they said they had to take my details and I’d hear from Northern Rail.

I’ve never had this happen before and am really worried. I’ve been googling and reading all sorts of awful stories about fare evasion. It really was just an absent minded mistake as I was rushing and stressed due to being late for work.

What will happen next?

A lot here hinges on timings. Did you purchase the ticket before you boarded the train? (Northern can check this)

Which train were you taking, and what was the full journey you were making? Which exact ticket did you have, between which stations, and how much did it cost? It isn't unknown for Northern to get ticketing matters wrong. These are important questions which could, depending on the facts, mean you have no case to answer.

 

[gray1404]

We need more information from you.

Where did you travel from and to and on what date? What time train did you travel on?

What type of ticket did you purchase and how much did it cost you? What time did you purchase the ticket?

 

[Greenwh]

A lot here hinges on timings. Did you purchase the ticket before you boarded the train? (Northern can check this)

Which train were you taking, and what was the full journey you were making? Which exact ticket did you have, between which stations, and how much did it cost? It isn't unknown for Northern to get ticketing matters wrong. These are important questions which could, depending on the facts, mean you have no case to answer.

Hi AlterEgo

I was trying to make the 08:43 train from Cross Gates to Leeds but was late and I got to the station at 8:50. I realised as I walked on the train at 8:55 (time train arrived) that I hadn’t bought a ticket so just quickly went on the app and bought one. I have my confirmation email that states the time was 8:55 when I bought it.

The ticket I bought was an off peak open return ticket for £4 but I should have bought the peak open return for £4.80. It would have cost me £2 had I of just bought a single.

On my way home I didn’t use that same open return ticket again, I bought a single ticket for 17:46 Leeds > Cross Gates which cost £3.70.

Thanks for your help.

 

[Sheffcaster202]

As they haven't issued a PF, if a TIR is issued, surely the correct amount payable is simply the difference between Offpeak and Peak fares, nothing more?

Unfortunately for the OP it’s the waiting game now for the letter to arrive, reply and see what is required.

Hopefully it will be as you’ve said but we’ll need to wait for the OP to get their letter through now to see.

 

[Greenwh]

We need more information from you.

Where did you travel from and to and on what date? What time train did you travel on?

What type of ticket did you purchase and how much did it cost you? What time did you purchase the ticket?

Hi gray

Cross Gates > Leeds 15th January
8:43 train but it didn’t show until 8:55 would have cost £4.80.

I bought an open return off peak ticket for £4 when I boarded at 8:55. I have email proof of the time.

I didn’t use this same ticket to return with, bought a single ticket for my way home.

 

[gray1404]

The 08.43 arrived at 08.55 and departed at 08.56 on 15/01/24

You held an Off Peak Day Return priced at £4.00 which was not valid until 09.30am l. However the correct course of action in that situation is to charge an excess, which would have been £0.80

The ticket was purchased at 08.55 which was before the train departed.

 

[swt_passenger]

What is the time of purchase of the ticket?

8.55 as per post #8

 

[gray1404]

The correct course of action here is to respond to Northern stating that they have not followed the procedures correctly and should merely have charged an excess. They had no basis for taking your details.

They have taken your details, for the avoidance of doubt, because you were using a ticket to type not valid at that time of day.

Now strictly speaking you did commit in an offence because you did board the train with the intention of travelling before you had purchased your ticket when ticket selling facilities were available at the station. However this is not what Northern are potentially investigating and you are not required to incriminate yourself.

 

[island]

No I’ve never had this happen before and I’d be happy to pay a fine to settle out of court. Although it was just a mistake, I do understand how serious it is. I’ve just checked and the actual difference in fare was 80p, so I’m assuming I’ll need to pay that plus £100 fine?

As said above they will be asking for the full fare for the journey made, which is £3.70. They will not credit you with any amount for the invalid ticket.

The £100 (or whatever amount they ask for) is not a fine, even though it may feel like one; it is a contribution to the costs of their handling of fare evasion.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

If you purchased the ticket before boarding the train then you are only liable to pay the excess fare (i.e. the difference between the Off Peak and Anytime fares). From what you have said it appears this is the case so do keep your email confirmation showing the purchase time very safe. No admin fee should be payable.

Northern will probably write one of their threatening letters to you in the next few weeks threatening prosecution and asking for your version of events before they decide how to proceed or even just offer you a settlement straight off (one of their Fixed Penalty Notices - or whatever they call them these days). When the letter comes post it up in this thread (with personal details redacted) and we will be happy to assist with the wording of the reply.

 

[gray1404]

Hi gray

Cross Gates > Leeds 15th January
8:43 train but it didn’t show until 8:55 would have cost £4.80.

I bought an open return off peak ticket for £4 when I boarded at 8:55. I have email proof of the time.

I didn’t use this same ticket to return with, bought a single ticket for my way home.

Here

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jan 2024 ==

Northern staff have got peak restrictions wrong in the past (eg making up non existent evening peak restrictions) so it would be helpful to post the time of the train you travelled on and what station you came from.

See above

 

[Greenwh]

Thank you all so much for your replies.

I will definitely upload my letter when I receive it.

 

[Greenwh]

Received my letter today.
I only have to pay £3.70 to cover the correct fare. Such a relief!
Thank you all for all your help.

 

[30907]

Arguably that's still £2.90 too much, but I imagine you would prefer to settle and be done with it!

 

[gray1404]

I would pay the amount they are asking for in order to close the matter in terms of them being able to even try taking you to Court.

I would then make a formal complaint as the procedures have not been followed correctly. Might it still be possible for you to get a refund of the original ticket from the retailer?

 

[spag23]

Arguably that's still £2.90 too much, but I imagine you would prefer to settle and be done with it!

Personally, I'd settle it; just to close the incident down.
But -once the payment is cleared - I'd then get back to them citing Hadders' excellent information that only an excess is payable. And ask for refund. And ask for an assurance that train staff (and themselves!) will receive corrective training over the Excess Fares rules.
It's not (just) being awkward, but this might save other passengers being overcharged; most of whom would pay up, not knowing about this Forum.
It would reduce the workload for this forum's experts too.
PS I see @gray1404 has just said the same thing!

 

[Hadders]

For the sake of £2.90 I'd just pay it to make the matter go away. You could complain to Northern once the matter has been closed but to be honet it'll be an awful lot of faff for £2.90.

 

[spag23]

You could complain to Northern once the matter has been closed but to be honet it'll be an awful lot of faff for £2.90.

The issue of course is that the TOC was prepared to go to the faff of wrongly penalising the OP (and maybe hundreds of others) three figure sums, plus threats of prosecution. So an OP response that addresses such malpractices seems a worthwhile public duty.
I write this whilst enjoying the sight of a Post Office Investigator squirming over her ignorance of due process.