First Rotherham to close

[THarris123]

No probs and for what it's worth although everyone talks about a fleet of 80 vehicles at Doncaster I think it's about 90.

I assume you mean 90 at Rotherham? That's the latest figure I have. A lot of it is 2002 reg stuff, so will this just be withdrawn with new replacements sent directly to Doncaster/Sheffield early in the year?

 

[Blackpudding]

Thanks THarris123 I did indeed mean Rotherham

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I assume you mean 90 at Rotherham? That's the latest figure I have. A lot of it is 2002 reg stuff, so will this just be withdrawn with new replacements sent directly to Doncaster/Sheffield early in the year?

The 2016 order hasn't even been completed yet though FSY has received its portion of it.

The 2017 order probably won't even start being delivered until April/May and there's no guarantee that FSY will get new fleet. Also, Doncaster has an fair chunk of older fleet anyway.

 

[THarris123]

The 2016 order hasn't even been completed yet though FSY has received its portion of it.

The 2017 order probably won't even start being delivered until April/May and there's no guarantee that FSY will get new fleet. Also, Doncaster has an fair chunk of older fleet anyway.

Very true. It was just a thought.

 

[TC60054]

The seven for Doncaster will indeed be for half the X78.

Rotherham's fleet...
30564-565/567-570/575/577-578/31142/143-144/786 (13)
32108-111/215-220/308-312 (15)
35101-102/117-138 (24)
37231/258-259/261-263/494 (7)
60704-706/720-722/724/726-731/733-744 (25)
63038-041/369/371/380/382/387-388 (10)

I make that a total of 94 - so someone's made a bit of a mess of numbers somewhere along the line (unless I'm missing something of course!)

 

[THarris123]

The seven for Doncaster will indeed be for half the X78.

Rotherham's fleet...
30564-565/567-570/575/577-578/31142/143-144/786 (13)
32108-111/215-220/308-312 (15)
35101-102/117-138 (24)
37231/258-259/261-263/494 (7)
60704-706/720-722/724/726-731/733-744 (25)
63038-041/369/371/380/382/387-388 (10)

I make that a total of 94 - so someone's made a bit of a mess of numbers somewhere along the line (unless I'm missing something of course!)

Not necessarily. They could withdraw 14 and move 80 and not affect any drivers jobs - it depends how short of drivers they are in all 3 depots.

I have 91 vehicles on my list.

 

[the101]

Not necessarily. They could withdraw 14 and move 80 and not affect any drivers jobs - it depends how short of drivers they are in all 3 depots.

In these situations, where a depot is closed and jobs are relocated, it is inevitable that some drivers will elect not to transfer and will leave. For example, some may live within walking distance of Rotherham and not have a car, or may view the additional travel time as not worth their while. Others may be approaching retirement and take the depot closure as their cue to finish.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

In these situations, where a depot is closed and jobs are relocated, it is inevitable that some drivers will elect not to transfer and will leave. For example, some may live within walking distance of Rotherham and not have a car, or may view the additional travel time as not worth their while. Others may be approaching retirement and take the depot closure as their cue to finish.

Exactly! I know when my late father's depot closed, the nearest depot was 12 miles away. Some were close to retirement or had long service so took the money and ran (knowing that they could easily get a lower paid job but only Mon to Sat daytimes). Very few transferred across because of the extra time (30 mins at the beginning and end of shift) and the need/cost of getting to the new depot.

 

[the101]

Exactly! I know when my late father's depot closed, the nearest depot was 12 miles away. Some were close to retirement or had long service so took the money and ran (knowing that they could easily get a lower paid job but only Mon to Sat daytimes). Very few transferred across because of the extra time (30 mins at the beginning and end of shift) and the need/cost of getting to the new depot.

Some of this is what happened with another recent First depot closure. A number of drivers close to retirement and with many years' service understandably took redundancy and are now working for another operator that pays less but has what could be considered more desirable work, i.e. next to no evening and Sunday shifts, and does not serve some of the Wild West outposts that the area is blessed with.

Many did transfer, however, and those with children to bring up they had little option, such is the difference in wages between the two operators.

 

[Robertj21a]

Some of this is what happened with another recent First depot closure. A number of drivers close to retirement and with many years' service understandably took redundancy and are now working for another operator that pays less but has what could be considered more desirable work, i.e. next to no evening and Sunday shifts, and does not serve some of the Wild West outposts that the area is blessed with.

Many did transfer, however, and those with children to bring up they had little option, such is the difference in wages between the two operators.

First Potteries ? - now working for D & G ?

 

[Busaholic]

Mea culpa, but I've only ever set foot once in what is now South Yorkshire, and that was changing trains in Sheffield c1973. Is there scope for another operator once First quits the depot? How close is Stagecoach to the area? What about Yorkshire Terrier? Loyalties can soon switch - look at Northampton and North Devon, to name but two recent ones. Why is First not just downsizing in the town if it wants to save money? Genuine questions from someone who doesn't know the topography but who is always interested in the bigger picture, to use a description beloved of David Hockney.

 

[Andyh82]

Stagecoach already have a depot in Rotherham (well in Rawmarsh)

 

[TC60054]

Not necessarily. They could withdraw 14 and move 80 and not affect any drivers jobs - it depends how short of drivers they are in all 3 depots.

I have 91 vehicles on my list.

Read the posts I made at the beginning of the thread. The proposals show no withdrawals of vehicles from the fleet.

I think I may have put 60704-60706 in the wrong place - alternatively I can't count.

 

[Busaholic]

Stagecoach already have a depot in Rotherham (well in Rawmarsh)

OK, any idea of relative strengths compared to First? Is there now/has there ever been strong competition? I know the Buses Bill etc is introducing more uncertainty and perhaps acting as a disincentive to competition, but Mr Souter is not one to pass by an opportunity.

 

[Y961 XBU]

One thing am concerned about is the persons post i mentioned in Post 1 says that him and a lot of Drivers are looking to move on, If he is correct am worried First might suffer from a Driver shortage and struggle to cover some dutys

 

[tbtc]

Is there scope for another operator once First quits the depot? How close is Stagecoach to the area? What about Yorkshire Terrier?

Yorkshire Terrier was (in later years) part of Yorkshire Traction, so now part of Stagecoach.

The next biggest player in town is TM Travel, part of Wellglade (Trent Barton etc), who have picked up a few titbits from First in recent years (the depot at Halfway, 30 from Sheffield to Crystal Peaks, 6 from Darnall to Millhouses etc) rather than actually competed with them.

TM Travel's lower cost base and dozens of Solos would be more suited to many of the residual Rotherham routes (the ones that don't run through to Doncaster or Sheffield).

Stagecoach are the only operator to have a Rotherham base (Rawmarsh) but their remaining South Yorkshire depots have taken on extra work after Doncaster and Shafton closed (with Stagecoach shifting routes between depots to try to balance things), so I don't know if they'd have space. The First 39/ 40/ 41/ 42 run in that general direction).

http://www.travelsouthyorkshire.com/rotherhambusnetworkmap/

I just don't know if the remaining services are really worth any operator taking on.

Whilst Stagecoach (and Yorkshire Traction/ Terrier before them) have competed on a number of corridors in Sheffield, there's not been competition on most Rotherham services.

Yorkshire Terrier did compete on the old 137/138 corridor twenty-plus years ago, and Tates Travel used to compete on the East Dene services (56/57 vs First's 11), but most of the competition has been on "out of town" routes (e.g. First's 22 to the Dearne Valley and Barnsley competing with existing Stagecoach services).

Plus, with the TramTrain opening in the next few years (who knows? keeps getting pushed back...) that will suck demand from the Sheffield - Meadowhall South - Rotherham - Parkgate corridor, which might make things even bleaker, as far as commercial bus operations go.

Sorry, probably a longer answer than you were wanting, but I don't think Rotherham is going to be fertile territory for any operator. If First had pulled out a couple of years ago, I could have seen Tates Travel make a play, but we are generally without those kind of cowboys now.

 

[Robertj21a]

OK, any idea of relative strengths compared to First? Is there now/has there ever been strong competition? I know the Buses Bill etc is introducing more uncertainty and perhaps acting as a disincentive to competition, but Mr Souter is not one to pass by an opportunity.

Not likely to interest Brian Souter, it's probably of little interest for bus operators - trunk routes to Sheffield etc not really changing and Rotherham locals only part full, with concessions. Might suit a small independent operator with just a few vehicles.

 

[ECML180]

It wouldn't surprise me too much if Powells had a close eye on it. They already work a limited amount of routes around Rotherham and the area, so they could well 'cherry pick' a few of the nicer sections of routes out their end of town (Wickersley/Hellaby) if First does see reliability issues on the routes. Depending on traffic and how much cost is involved in First getting vehicles to the Rotherham routes then Powells could have a significantly lower cost base, especially when their existing fleet (mostly midibuses) matches what the routes would need. Having said that I'm not sure what space they have in their yard.

 

[Busaholic]

Yorkshire Terrier was (in later years) part of Yorkshire Traction, so now part of Stagecoach.

The next biggest player in town is TM Travel, part of Wellglade (Trent Barton etc), who have picked up a few titbits from First in recent years (the depot at Halfway, 30 from Sheffield to Crystal Peaks, 6 from Darnall to Millhouses etc) rather than actually competed with them.

TM Travel's lower cost base and dozens of Solos would be more suited to many of the residual Rotherham routes (the ones that don't run through to Doncaster or Sheffield).

Stagecoach are the only operator to have a Rotherham base (Rawmarsh) but their remaining South Yorkshire depots have taken on extra work after Doncaster and Shafton closed (with Stagecoach shifting routes between depots to try to balance things), so I don't know if they'd have space. The First 39/ 40/ 41/ 42 run in that general direction).

http://www.travelsouthyorkshire.com/rotherhambusnetworkmap/

I just don't know if the remaining services are really worth any operator taking on.

Whilst Stagecoach (and Yorkshire Traction/ Terrier before them) have competed on a number of corridors in Sheffield, there's not been competition on most Rotherham services.

Yorkshire Terrier did compete on the old 137/138 corridor twenty-plus years ago, and Tates Travel used to compete on the East Dene services (56/57 vs First's 11), but most of the competition has been on "out of town" routes (e.g. First's 22 to the Dearne Valley and Barnsley competing with existing Stagecoach services).

Plus, with the TramTrain opening in the next few years (who knows? keeps getting pushed back...) that will suck demand from the Sheffield - Meadowhall South - Rotherham - Parkgate corridor, which might make things even bleaker, as far as commercial bus operations go.

Sorry, probably a longer answer than you were wanting, but I don't think Rotherham is going to be fertile territory for any operator. If First had pulled out a couple of years ago, I could have seen Tates Travel make a play, but we are generally without those kind of cowboys now.

No, thank you, that was just the sort of answer I was looking for. I shall bear it all in mind when I read of future developments!

I didn't like to mention the TramTrain because of my total lack of local knowledge, but it's bound to have an effect on the Sheffield-Rotherham corridor, assuming it does ever happen. I would guess fare levels would play quite a big part in determining any switch, a bit like in Edinburgh and Manchester (Croydon cannily got rid of most meaningful bus competition from day one!)

 

[Mwanesh]

I think Stagecoach may move into the Midland Road depot.Rawmarsh is full to capacity.The Sheffield depots are maxed out.Barnsley is also full thats why the National Express unit was moved to Chesterfield to free 11 spaces at Barnsley.

 

[childwallblues]

Olive Grove can easily hold approx 350 buses, and currently runs with 232 buses. Plenty of space, and Doncaster isn't lacking in the space either - remember it used to run the X78 before it went to Rotherham, and nothing replaced the X78 there.

350 buses? Wow that many. I worked in Sheffield from 1972-76 and Sheffield had four garages Leadmill, Herries, Greenland and East Bank which is now called Olive Grove.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I think Stagecoach may move into the Midland Road depot.Rawmarsh is full to capacity.The Sheffield depots are maxed out.Barnsley is also full thats why the National Express unit was moved to Chesterfield to free 11 spaces at Barnsley.

The problem is Midland Road is a very expensive site to operate with it being almost fully undercover. If Stagecoach need extra capacity, there are cheaper options.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

350 buses? Wow that many. I worked in Sheffield from 1972-76 and Sheffield had four garages Leadmill, Herries, Greenland and East Bank which is now called Olive Grove.

Indeed, and they later gained Halfway from Booth and Fisher. In fact, East Bank was closed for a while but reopened to allow Leadmill and later Herries to close. The extra parking area for OG is, of course, the site of the former SUT/NTE depot at Charlotte Road

 

[AnonymousUser1]

The problem is Midland Road is a very expensive site to operate with it being almost fully undercover. If Stagecoach need extra capacity, there are cheaper options.

I dread to thyink what the business rates would be on that - given retailers of relatively high value items would rather erect tents in the yard or hold stock in containers / trailers than increase their exposure to business rates a bus depot' which garages more than the vehicles being worked on ...

 

[johnnychips]

There has been mention of Powell's. They run the 18 half-hourly during the week, and hourly on Saturday Doncaster-Balby-Warmsworth-Edlington-Maltby and on to Dinnington.

Now there is competition from First which runs service 10, which runs to to Maltby from Donny half-hourly then continues to Rotherham. It misses out Warmsworth, but just touches the edge of Edlington centre by running down Markham Road, which has never had bus services before. A lot of local people are complaining.

 

[83G/84D]

Rotherham garage was eerily quiet yesterday when I passed it.Hardly any buses inside compared to previous occasions when there were visiting buses in for work. Only 37567 from Eastern Counties was seen.
Sad days indeed for all the people involved at the depot.

 

[ECML180]

With regard to previous comments about new uses for the depot, I wonder if Magtec would be interested? Reading a month(ish) old Coach & Bus Week they have expanded from Sheffield to Rotherham and are doing good business, although I'm not sure quite how much space they use it said they use all Units on the business estate they're based at.

http://www.magtec.co.uk/index.php/en/