First Rail Stirling (Lumo) Rolling Stock

[Brubulus]

Does anyone think they will use the shop on board the 222s or lock it out of service?

I would assume it's getting removed, and seats fitted instead, much like First Class

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I would assume it's getting removed, and seats fitted instead, much like First Class

I’m almost certain seats won’t be fitted in the unair-conditioned, unheated, windowless vestibule. But I’d agree it will probably be removed as per CrossCountry, and replaced with luggage or cycle storage.

 

[lrbvoyager]

I’m almost certain seats won’t be fitted in the unair-conditioned, unheated, windowless vestibule. But I’d agree it will probably be removed as per CrossCountry, and replaced with luggage or cycle storage.

Do the 222s not have cycle storage already fitted? Edit: They must have it as when you book tickets with EMR it gives you the option to book a bike.

 

[Brubulus]

Do the 222s not have cycle storage already fitted? Edit: They must have it as when you book tickets with EMR it gives you the option to book a bike.

They do, in the unusable section at the front of the train, opposite the TM office. I'd be amazed if Lumo carries bikes, but they can't sell it to passengers like a converted buffet counter (special discount zone/unreserved section). I'd assume it becomes more luggage storage.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Do the 222s not have cycle storage already fitted? Edit: They must have it as when you book tickets with EMR it gives you the option to book a bike.

That's like me saying "Do they not have seats already fitted?" to your original post! Of course they do, but there's no reason they can't add more.

 

[lrbvoyager]

That's like me saying "Do they not have seats already fitted?" to your original post! Of course they do, but there's no reason they can't add more.

I’ve never been on a 222 so I wouldn’t of know.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I’ve never been on a 222 so I wouldn’t of know.

Okay, well for the record, all UK long distance stock can take cycles

 

[danbarjon]

Okay, well for the record, all UK long distance stock can take cycles

First East Coast don’t…

 

[Avenger20]

Okay, well for the record, all UK long distance stock can take cycles

803s do not have cycle racks and if you check Lumo's website you'll see that they are prohibited.

 

[Brubulus]

803s do not have cycle racks and if you check Lumo's website you'll see that they are prohibited.

They did at one point, but they severely underestimated how much luggage people had, which led to them banning bikes and large luggage.

 

[RUK]

They did at one point, but they severely underestimated how much luggage people had, which led to them banning bikes and large luggage.

Do the Class 803s need a luggage/baggage van adding, then? High-speed Inter-City services had separate luggage compartments in the end cars, I believe.

 

[lrbvoyager]

Tried asking lumos Twitter account about about the 222 units there getting and wether or not they will keep the shop and was met with a very blunt and unhelpful reply.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Tried asking lumos Twitter account about about the 222 units there getting and wether or not they will keep the shop and was met with a very blunt and unhelpful reply.

There definitely won't be a shop. They're not going to have the "ambassador" stood there for hours.

It's unlikely that they'll even keep that carriage when they reform the 222 units into 6 car sets.

They'll have the ambassador checking tickets and taking a trolley through the train, like what happens now on the Edinburgh services.

They don't have catering staff etc specifically either.

 

[lrbvoyager]

There definitely won't be a shop. They're not going to have the "ambassador" stood there for hours.

It's unlikely that they'll even keep that carriage when they reform the 222 units into 6 car sets.

They'll have the ambassador checking tickets and taking a trolley through the train, like what happens now on the Edinburgh services.

They don't have catering staff etc specifically either.

Will the “ambassador” act in a TM capacity, opening doors and closing them etc?

 

[Wyrleybart]

Will the “ambassador” act in a TM capacity, opening doors and closing them etc?

Good question. I cannot envisage a driver self-despatching a 222, because they are unable to look back to see a "tip" from the platform even if Lumo paid for said "tip". Neither can I see Lumo paying for cameras / mirrors on the units or the platforms.

AIUI despatching a 222 is very similar to the 220 and 221 where the driver carries out the "ten bells" procedure with the "guard"/ TM, and therefore needs someone behind them to confirm the train is ready to close doors, then despatch.

I think (a lot of) money would be required to make a class 222 DOO friendly

 

[liamf656]

AIUI despatching a 222 is very similar to the 220 and 221 where the driver carries out the "ten bells" procedure with the "guard"/ TM, and therefore needs someone behind them to confirm the train is ready to close doors, then despatch.

If I'm right, currently the driver releases the doors, TM opens them, then the TM closes doors and gives two bells, followed by the driver's acknowledgement

I'm sure someone can confirm whether or not the ten bells procedure is *possible* on 222s, as I believe it may be

 

[LowLevel]

If I'm right, currently the driver releases the doors, TM opens them, then the TM closes doors and gives two bells, followed by the driver's acknowledgement

I'm sure someone can confirm whether or not the ten bells procedure is *possible* on 222s, as I believe it may be

It's possible but pointless. If you were doing that you'd just have the driver release the doors (which they can do, the release to guard step is optional) and the guard close them.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Good question. I cannot envisage a driver self-despatching a 222, because they are unable to look back to see a "tip" from the platform even if Lumo paid for said "tip". Neither can I see Lumo paying for cameras / mirrors on the units or the platforms.

AIUI despatching a 222 is very similar to the 220 and 221 where the driver carries out the "ten bells" procedure with the "guard"/ TM, and therefore needs someone behind them to confirm the train is ready to close doors, then despatch.

I think (a lot of) money would be required to make a class 222 DOO friendly

There is absolutely no need for any of that nonsense. You only need cameras etc if the driver is solely responsible.

I fully envisage it to be wholly DOO, with platform staff dispatch using CD/RA. Driver doesn't need to see anything except the relevant indicators and/or hand signals.

Potentially could be a hybrid model like Chiltern, with a Guard only necessary for some of the route, where station staff dispatch isn't possible, for example just between Motherwell and Stirling. If this happens, I suspect they'll just use another driver to save having to train additional people or roles.

There would be a serious risk to the reliability of Lumo services if it was operated with a guard, the absence of any significant union/industrial action threat to withdraw critical staff is a major advantage.

 

[craigybagel]

There is absolutely no need for any of that nonsense. You only need cameras etc if the driver is solely responsible.

I fully envisage it to be wholly DOO, with platform staff dispatch using CD/RA. Driver doesn't need to see anything except the relevant indicators and/or hand signals.

Potentially could be a hybrid model like Chiltern, with a Guard only necessary for some of the route, where station staff dispatch isn't possible, for example just between Motherwell and Stirling. If this happens, I suspect they'll just use another driver to save having to train additional people or roles.

There would be a serious risk to the reliability of Lumo services if it was operated with a guard, the absence of any significant union/industrial action threat to withdraw critical staff is a major advantage.

Unless things have changed since my dispatch days, Avanti stations on the WCML aren't fitted with CD indicators, only RA.

Given the stock is both temporary, and not set up for DOO without platform infrastructure that as far as I'm aware doesn't exist, and that LUMO already train their staff on their other route to assist with dispatch where necessary, I would be very surprised if they don't use drivers and guards combined to operate the doors, with or without dispatch staff to assist.

 

[lrbvoyager]

Unless things have changed since my dispatch days, Avanti stations on the WCML aren't fitted with CD indicators, only RA.

Given the stock is both temporary, and not set up for DOO without platform infrastructure that as far as I'm aware doesn't exist, and that LUMO already train their staff on their other route to assist with dispatch where necessary, I would be very surprised if they don't use drivers and guards combined to operate the doors, with or without dispatch staff to assist.

I would imagine their “ambassador” would get dispatched by avanti platform staff and would close the doors then buzz to the driver?

 

[Carlisle]

There is absolutely no need for any of that nonsense. You only need cameras etc if the driver is solely responsible.

It can’t be that expensive to fit body side cameras. The entire GWR Turbo fleet & WMR/LNWR fleet has been fitted with them under plans later cancelled to have guards concentrate mainly on passenger duties rather than dispatch.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

It can’t be that expensive to fit body side cameras. The entire GWR Turbo fleet & WMR/LNWR fleet has been fitted with them under plans later cancelled to have guards concentrate mainly on passenger duties rather than dispatch.

Body side cameras are not expensive (in the scheme of things).

Redesigning a 20 year old cab so that the driver can then see them in all conditions, suitable for driver only operation is not feasible or cost effective.

It would be cheaper to pay agency staff to dispatch the train using hand signals at each station.

 

[LowLevel]

Body side cameras are not expensive (in the scheme of things).

Redesigning a 20 year old cab so that the driver can then see them in all conditions, suitable for driver only operation is not feasible or cost effective.

It would be cheaper to pay agency staff to dispatch the train using hand signals at each station.

The obvious solution to everyone but you who is looking at it through a political lense though is as the trains are a temporary fix for a finite period using the already employed and paid for traincrew to dispatch the train themselves using the skills they will already have based on the East Coast operations is by far the cheapest and easiest approach to take!

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Unless things have changed since my dispatch days, Avanti stations on the WCML aren't fitted with CD indicators, only RA.

Given the stock is both temporary, and not set up for DOO without platform infrastructure that as far as I'm aware doesn't exist, and that LUMO already train their staff on their other route to assist with dispatch where necessary, I would be very surprised if they don't use drivers and guards combined to operate the doors, with or without dispatch staff to assist.

Ultimately I think it depends what these Ambassador roles are actually defined as. I suspect great care is being taken to ensure that they are not defined as a guard or with responsibility for guard roles in the rule book.

I'm sceptical that Lumo would go with guards even on a "temporary" basis - as it introduces a huge industrial action issue when the Hitachi stock turns up in a year or two, and they then default back to pure DOO in normal circumstances. It also potentially reduces the reliability of the service and introduces risks that mean it can be difficult to recover the services during disruption, as you now need to find a guard as well as a driver.

You would have to trust that your brand new workforce wouldn't kick off and cause issues when you eventually dilute / eliminate their role - and operational rail staff have not got a good track record of taking these changes well.

 

[Wyrleybart]

There is absolutely no need for any of that nonsense. You only need cameras etc if the driver is solely responsible.

I fully envisage it to be wholly DOO, with platform staff dispatch using CD/RA. Driver doesn't need to see anything except the relevant indicators and/or hand signals.

Potentially could be a hybrid model like Chiltern, with a Guard only necessary for some of the route, where station staff dispatch isn't possible, for example just between Motherwell and Stirling. If this happens, I suspect they'll just use another driver to save having to train additional people or roles.

There would be a serious risk to the reliability of Lumo services if it was operated with a guard, the absence of any significant union/industrial action threat to withdraw critical staff is a major advantage.

Which particular bit of nonsense ?
AFAIK a train driver operating a DOOP service should monitor the PTI until the train leaves the platform - mostly to whack the brake in if a little old lady has an arm or a dog lead trapped in the door.

The 22x cab does not allow the driver to see very much of their train in the seated position, neither are there any opening windows. I daresay the driver could look out of an open cab door to observe platform proceedings, but may well take 40 - 50 seconds to close the door, walk back to the seat, close the doors, release the brake and drivee off. In those 40-50 seconds a "last minute" passenger might rock up and clamber onto the mu cables between cars.

 

[ainsworth74]

AFAIK a train driver operating a DOOP service should monitor the PTI until the train leaves the platform - mostly to whack the brake in if a little old lady has an arm or a dog lead trapped in the door.

DOO screens switch off once a train is moving at more than a handful of MPH so not sure how they can monitor the PTI until the train is clear of the platform! If they were monitoring the PTI then we wouldn't have trap and drag incidents like we do.

Now there's a discussion to be had about whether the screens should do that and whether or not a driver should be able/expected in that scenario to have a second glance as the train builds up speed. But right now they aren't expected to nor can they. Once the doors are closed and locked and the drivers had their last scan of the screens before taking power that's basically it. Much as with guard operations once the guard has closed the local door there's very little they can see from their position (another thing that I'm not convinced by, guards not having opening windows to allow them to observe the train clear of the platform).

All the being said fitting DOO monitors to a 222 does still seem a somewhat unlikely state of affairs considering the age of the fleet. I wouldn't be surprised if the method of operation wasn't for the driver to get the tip from the dispatcher to close and lock, complete their final check and once given the right away by the dispatcher resume their seat and drive off. After all, is it any different to a guard closing up? Once they've closed their local door they have no way of knowing what's going on on the platform and the dispatchers have no-way of stopping the train.

 

[43066]

There is absolutely no need for any of that nonsense. You only need cameras etc if the driver is solely responsible.

I fully envisage it to be wholly DOO, with platform staff dispatch using CD/RA. Driver doesn't need to see anything except the relevant indicators and/or hand signals.

Potentially could be a hybrid model like Chiltern, with a Guard only necessary for some of the route, where station staff dispatch isn't possible, for example just between Motherwell and Stirling. If this happens, I suspect they'll just use another driver to save having to train additional people or roles.

There would be a serious risk to the reliability of Lumo services if it was operated with a guard, the absence of any significant union/industrial action threat to withdraw critical staff is a major advantage.

Is CD/RA fitted at all locations? If not installing it may well be expensive and ultimately down to Network Rail - so couldn’t be guaranteed.

The last paragraph sounds entirely theoretical and politically motivated - existing Lumo services on the East Coast already carry fully trained guards who dispatch in certain circumstances.

The obvious solution to everyone but you who is looking at it through a political lense though is as the trains are a temporary fix for a finite period using the already employed and paid for traincrew to dispatch the train themselves using the skills they will already have based on the East Coast operations is by far the cheapest and easiest approach to take!

Quite agree!

DOO screens switch off once a train is moving at more than a handful of MPH so not sure how they can monitor the PTI until the train is clear of the platform! If they were monitoring the PTI then we wouldn't have trap and drag incidents like we do.

Now there's a discussion to be had about whether the screens should do that and whether or not a driver should be able/expected in that scenario to have a second glance as the train builds up speed. But right now they aren't expected to nor can they. Once the doors are closed and locked and the drivers had their last scan of the screens before taking power that's basically it. Much as with guard operations once the guard has closed the local door there's very little they can see from their position (another thing that I'm not convinced by, guards not having opening windows to allow them to observe the train clear of the platform).

Agreed. Guards in middle cabs with droplights, who can hit a plunger or give the driver one on the bell if something happens during departure, is perhaps the ideal scenario. However these days, even where available (eg EMR 360s), they aren’t supposed to lean out as the train departs as that leads to other safety issues.

I wouldn't be surprised if the method of operation wasn't for the driver to get the tip from the dispatcher to close and lock, complete their final check and once given the right away by the dispatcher resume their seat and drive off. After all, is it any different to a guard closing up? Once they've closed their local door they have no way of knowing what's going on on the platform and the dispatchers have no-way of stopping the train.

You run into issues there of dispatchers having to stand well in front of the cab to be visible to the driver, so perhaps impeding view of the train and then requiring two dispatchers - not an issue in every location but perhaps in some. Just giving the tip to the guard and them closing up and giving two to the driver, or CD/RA where available, both seem more likely and straightforward?

Have any of the people involved (@nolypops83?) been given any indication what dispatch method(s) will be used? It’s entirely possible that no final decision has yet been taken, of course.

 

[nolypops83]

Is CD/RA fitted at all locations? If not installing it may well be expensive and ultimately down to Network Rail - so couldn’t be guaranteed.

The last paragraph sounds entirely theoretical and politically motivated - existing Lumo services on the East Coast already carry fully trained guards who dispatch in certain circumstances.



Quite agree!



Agreed. Guards in middle cabs with droplights, who can hit a plunger or give the driver one on the bell if something happens during departure, is perhaps the ideal scenario. However these days, even where available (eg EMR 360s), they aren’t supposed to lean out as the train departs as that leads to other safety issues.



You run into issues there of dispatchers having to stand well in front of the cab to be visible to the driver, so perhaps impeding view of the train and then requiring two dispatchers - not an issue in every location but perhaps in some. Just giving the tip to the guard and them closing up and giving two to the driver, or CD/RA where available, both seem more likely and straightforward?

Have any of the people involved (@nolypops83?) been given any indication what dispatch method(s) will be used? It’s entirely possible that no final decision has yet been taken, of course.

Hiya! We've not been told either way. I'm assuming we will be the same as Lumo East Coast. We're learning about both during training so all bases are covered.

 

[Helvellyn]

There definitely won't be a shop. They're not going to have the "ambassador" stood there for hours.

It's unlikely that they'll even keep that carriage when they reform the 222 units into 6 car sets.

They'll have the ambassador checking tickets and taking a trolley through the train, like what happens now on the Edinburgh services.

They don't have catering staff etc specifically either.

Lumo are taking five sets, presumed to be the four 7-car sets plus one 5-car set to be reformed as 5 6-car sets.

That leaves three spare vehicles, and for the sake of standard formations you would keep the former buffet coaches in each set. That space can either be reconfigured with seating or provides a useful luggage store for large bags.

It'll be interesting to see if in the Driving Motor First when they remove the kitchen if they insert windows where kitchen currently extends past the (current staff) door. I suspect the window spaces are there, just plated over as the Driving Motors at each end are basically the same shell so will have been built with the same jigs. At least one of those 'spare' Motor Coaches would provide the windows and interior fittings to extend that saloon.

 

[RUK]

Could the two unused spare coaches go to ScotRail?