First Rail Stirling (Lumo) Rolling Stock

[lrbvoyager]

Can Avanti prevent an Open Access operator (or any other operator for that matter) using a piece of Network Rail infrastructure? I think that would be a comprehensive no

Guessed as much! Surely lumos onboard ambassadors who are trained to operate the doors can have avanti staff dispatch to them so then there are no problems?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Avanti has absolutely zero say about how a train not operated by them is dispatched, never mind any union stance there.

It is in Avanti's interest though, because they can charge Lumo as part of the station facility charges.

Avanti dispatch DOO trains all the time anyway, although they are normally Class 3 or 5.

If Avanti or a union became difficult over this, Lumo could just do what plenty of other TOCs do and get minimum wage agency staff to dispatch the train at an Avanti station. Avanti are not allowed to insist on it being their staff, so long as whoever the contractor is has been trained and inducted.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jun 2025 ==

There are always 2 other staff in addition to the driver on a Lumo train. 222s can’t be DOO as no cameras.

It will be DOO, with dispatch handled via the platform staff / RA, rather than the driver doing everything. The 222s were built with this method of dispatch in mind and the driver has full door controls.

 

[hux385]

Do Avanti dispatch charter/heritage trains that call at Carlisle? There's plenty of other examples of stations where trains self dispatch and the station is managed by another TOC, for example TPE at some LNER stations.

 

[lrbvoyager]

Avanti has absolutely zero say about how a train not operated by them is dispatched, never mind any union stance there.

It is in Avanti's interest though, because they can charge Lumo as part of the station facility charges.

Avanti dispatch DOO trains all the time anyway, although they are normally Class 3 or 5.

If Avanti or a union became difficult over this, Lumo could just do what plenty of other TOCs do and get minimum wage agency staff to dispatch the train at an Avanti station. Avanti are not allowed to insist on it being their staff, so long as whoever the contractor is has been trained and inducted.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jun 2025 ==


It will be DOO, with dispatch handled via the platform staff / RA, rather than the driver doing everything. The 222s were built with this method of dispatch in mind and the driver has full door controls.

Surely it would just be cheaper to have avanti dispatch the train then hire separate staff?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jun 2025 ==

Do Avanti dispatch charter/heritage trains that call at Carlisle? There's plenty of other examples of stations where trains self dispatch and the station is managed by another TOC, for example TPE at some LNER stations.

Avanti dispatch all charter trains to and from Carlisle.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Carlisle is an Avanti managed station and they dispatch all passenger trains.

There is no requirement to be dispatched there - only local instructions for each TOC.

Any TOC can do their own risk assessment and conclude whether they need dispatch or not. It isn't for Avanti to decide.

Plenty of freight etc stops in platforms which doesn't get dispatched!

 

[lrbvoyager]

Do Avanti dispatch charter/heritage trains that call at Carlisle? There's plenty of other examples of stations where trains self dispatch and the station is managed by another TOC, for example TPE at some LNER stations.

In addition they dispatch all TPE, Northern, Scotrail, Caledonian Sleepers and LNER on diversion.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Surely it would just be cheaper to have avanti dispatch the train then hire separate staff?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jun 2025 ==


Avanti dispatch all charter trains to and from Carlisle.

That is exactly what is going to happen - which is why an argument about unions etc blocking it is completely irrelevant.

 

[lrbvoyager]

There is no requirement to be dispatched there - only local instructions for each TOC.

Any TOC can do their own risk assessment and conclude whether they need dispatch or not. It isn't for Avanti to decide.

Plenty of freight etc stops in platforms which doesn't get dispatched

Freight don’t get dispatched as there aren’t any passengers getting on or off. However station staff have to see the train through and make sure it has a tail light etc.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jun 2025 ==

That is exactly what is going to happen - which is why an argument about unions etc blocking it is completely irrelevant.

So you think lumo will just let avanti staff dispatch there trains?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jun 2025 ==

Do you know if lumo let LNER staff dispatch them at Newcastle?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Freight don’t get dispatched as there aren’t any passengers getting on or off. However station staff have to see the train through and make sure it has a tail light etc.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jun 2025 ==


So you think lumo will just let avanti staff dispatch there trains?

They don't have to do that, the existing TOCs choose to do that on the basis on their own risk assessments.

Every TOC is free to assess risk in their own way. Just because Avanti or Northern do something, doesn't mean Lumo has to, unless there are specific conditions in the sectional appendix or other network instructions.

There are plenty of stations where some trains are dispatched, and others, even from the same platform, are not.

And yes, Avanti will almost certainly dispatch and operate the RA equipment.

 

[lrbvoyager]

They don't have to do that, the existing TOCs choose to do that on the basis on their own risk assessments.

Every TOC is free to assess risk in their own way. Just because Avanti or Northern do something, doesn't mean Lumo has to, unless there are specific conditions in the sectional appendix or other network instructions.

There are plenty of stations where some trains are dispatched, and others, even from the same platform, are not.

And yes, Avanti will almost certainly dispatch and operate the RA equipment.

Interestingly due to different dispatch procedures at Carlisle only avanti services and charters get RA as TPE don’t require it.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Carlisle is managed by Avanti and the staff who manage the station dispatch every single train that leaves the station whether it be the Caledonian sleeper or the local northern services. They said if the lumo services weren’t dispatch by them they would strike.

Why do they care who dispatches a Lumo service? And furthermore, what’s it got to do with them? If it self-dispatches, they just ignore it.

 

[800001]

Freight don’t get dispatched as there aren’t any passengers getting on or off. However station staff have to see the train through and make sure it has a tail light etc.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jun 2025 ==


So you think lumo will just let avanti staff dispatch there trains?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jun 2025 ==

Do you know if lumo let LNER staff dispatch them at Newcastle?

No LNER do not despatch any Lumo services

 

[43096]

Carlisle is managed by Avanti and the staff who manage the station dispatch every single train that leaves the station whether it be the Caledonian sleeper or the local northern services. They said if the lumo services weren’t dispatch by them they would strike.

Why would Lumo be bothered if Carlisle platform staff went on strike? They'd be self dispatching, so don't need them anyway!

 

[43066]

Cameras could be fitted as they have been to the 350s (though not presently used). Or perhaps more likely some other kind of dispatch arrangement could be put in place - the 442s (bringing them into yet another thread ) were run DOO without cameras in their latter days as there were dispatchers at all stations they served.

Doubtful given the layout of the cab. Especially as the stock is (AIUI) only going to be used on an interim basis before a new rolling stock order.

Carlisle is managed by Avanti and the staff who manage the station dispatch every single train that leaves the station whether it be the Caledonian sleeper or the local northern services. They said if the lumo services weren’t dispatch by them they would strike.

Who has said that, and to whom? It sounds highly unlikely - can you point to any evidence of this being seen as an issue by the RMT, as opposed to something someone supposedly said?

 

[lrbvoyager]

Why do they care who dispatches a Lumo service? And furthermore, what’s it got to do with them? If it self-dispatches, they just ignore it.

Not when the station is managed by them. If anything happens to that train when it’s still on the platform then it falls down to the avanti staff. Thats why they want to dispatch it to ensure that they are fulfilling there risk assessment.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jun 2025 ==

No LNER do not despatch any Lumo services

Thank you!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I get what you mean. I guess when you have a system that works why change it? Even when LNER diverts they get dispatched by avanti staff. I was told they have a very strong union. Do you know if Avanti can refuse lumo services at Carlisle?

If the staff did so unilaterally that would be misconduct and so risk dismissal. Some would say unfortunately the only industrial action protected in law is either complete withdrawal of labour or "work to rule" i.e. taking as much time as permissible to perform tasks precisely as per the book, thus slowing things down somewhat, though because the Rule Book *is* the job it has limited effect on the railway. Give or take overtime bans, but this isn't industrial action because overtime is optional.

What you can't do (well, you can, but you'll get disciplined if you do) is only do some of your job.

 

[lrbvoyager]

Doubtful given the layout of the cab. Especially as the stock is (AIUI) only going to be used on an interim basis before a new rolling stock order.



Who has said that, and to whom? It sounds highly unlikely - can you point to any evidence of this being seen as an issue by the RMT, as opposed to something someone supposedly said?

I read it somewhere else i believe!

 

[Some guy]

It will be very interesting if they sign chat moss or via Bolton and Manchester when engineering works are taking place

What’s it like on the east coast for lumo and signing diversions

 

[pokemonsuper9]

What’s it like on the east coast for lumo and signing diversions?

The only potential diversion route is via Hertford. No clue if it's used but there are a lot more options on the WCML (Northampton, any of several Birmingham options, Manchester (airport/Stockport) (Chat Moss/Chorley/Hindley),

 

[dan4291]

The only potential diversion route is via Hertford. No clue if it's used but there are a lot more options on the WCML (Northampton, any of several Birmingham options, Manchester (airport/Stockport) (Chat Moss/Chorley/Hindley),

Yeah Lumo ECML drivers only sign the Hertford Loop as a diversion route. It's the only one that's fully electrified anyway!

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Via Northampton is mandatory because of a specific rule around signallers diverting trains that way without prior notice (but will have booked work too).

I'd expect via Coventry and round the back way to Stafford via Stechford and Bescot, avoiding Wolverhampton.

Probably via Hixon/Norton Bridge and then Stoke/Alsager.

And probably one route via Manchester.

With the 222s, they do have the option of travelling via Settle, but I very much doubt it, especially in DOO mode. Perhaps for very long engineering blocks by special arrangement if someone is feeling generous.

If/when Stirling gets Hitachi units, you may well see Newcastle-Carlisle and other positioning moves if the diagrams can be better managed in that way, or if the West Coast is closed and they run a 10 car from King's Cross and split somewhere, like what occasionally happens with combined Hull and Lumo services.

 

[The Planner]

It will be very interesting if they sign chat moss or via Bolton and Manchester when engineering works are taking place

What’s it like on the east coast for lumo and signing diversions

Not to start with they won't.

 

[Some guy]

Apparently I’ve heard there’s already a meridian at Widnes so training will commence very soon. Be interesting to see if they follow the MU 125 timings when they come in on the south WCML

 

[800001]

Apparently I’ve heard there’s already a meridian at Widnes so training will commence very soon. Be interesting to see if they follow the MU 125 timings when they come in on the south WCML

**If** one is at Widnes that would most likely be for its refurbishment.
However to my knowledge no 222s have left EMR let alone gone to Widnes.

Lumo have only just this week started there trainee drivers, that is several weeks in classroom before they even go to touch or look at a unit.

Maybe a ex Avanti 221 is there?

 

[LowLevel]

There isn't one at Widnes. Isn't there an ex EMR 180 up there for some reason?

 

[Wyrleybart]

There isn't one at Widnes. Isn't there an ex EMR 180 up there for some reason?

I guessed that would be the case.
IIRC all four ex EMR exx FHT 180s are in EMR livery, and two of those have reported at Widnes, but noone seems to know why.
Are the Rosco fleet owner expecting to get another contract for their use, because the one which briefly went to GCR didn't stay long ?

 

[QSK19]

I guessed that would be the case.
IIRC all four ex EMR exx FHT 180s are in EMR livery, and two of those have reported at Widnes, but noone seems to know why.
Are the Rosco fleet owner expecting to get another contract for their use, because the one which briefly went to GCR didn't stay long ?

Maybe Angel are holding out hope that EMR come running to them in a panic once Lumo’s 222s depart. Wouldn’t blame Angel for using that strategy - might as well have a punt given that there are only 3 months until they leave EMR.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Maybe Angel are holding out hope that EMR come running to them in a panic once Lumo’s 222s depart. Wouldn’t blame Angel for using that strategy - might as well have a punt given that there are only 3 months until they leave EMR.

We share that thought !!! Although I did wonder whether Arriva / Grand Central were perhaps expecting Alstom do do a pretty thorough look over them for potentially augmenting their fleet, what with talk of Cleethorpes and Newcastle-Brighton etc

 

[1nvicible]

Apparently I’ve heard there’s already a meridian at Widnes so training will commence very soon. Be interesting to see if they follow the MU 125 timings when they come in on the south WCML

Currently sat in Widnes are 180109 and 180113. The first 222 for conversion to Lumo is expected at Widnes towards the end of 2025.

 

[lrbvoyager]

Does anyone think they will use the shop on board the 222s or lock it out of service?