First Rail Stirling (Lumo) Rolling Stock

[themiller]

I hadn’t spotted that and wondered if the three spare coaches could be inserted into 4-coach sets to bring them up to five coaches until I read #180.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Was going to respond as per previous messages; however guessing the theoretical hybrid set wouldn’t work anyway given the compatibility issues which prevent 222s operating as a double set with 220s/221s?

I believe 220/221 are different to 222 in terms of coupler pin connectivity and general wiring. I think there are also differences with the toilets, plumbing etc.
Class 222 are owned by Eversholt whereas 220/221 are owned by Beacon, so it would need some financial arrangement anyway to even think about "homologising the fleets.

Not sure about 222s but the 220 and 221 have an engine under every car, but no compressors under the driving cars. There is normally an energy exchange method if a cars shut down

 

[lrbvoyager]

Will the 222s utilise the onboard shop? Aswell will they have first class?

 

[800001]

Will the 222s utilise the onboard shop? Aswell will they have first class?

Lumo operate a one class service and I can imagine that will continue on the Stirling service, also can imagine ship being removed and operate a trolley service same as on ECML.

 

[lrbvoyager]

Lumo operate a one class service and I can imagine that will continue on the Stirling service, also can imagine ship being removed and operate a trolley service same as on ECML.

Shop and a trolley service both require the same amount of staff and surely if the shop is there it’s easier just to use it then take it out or have it locked out of service?

 

[800001]

Shop and a trolley service both require the same amount of staff and surely if the shop is there it’s easier just to use it then take it out or have it locked out of service?

The trolley only operates once the staff have done ticket checks. If you have a shop open for longer you need more staff.

 

[lrbvoyager]

The trolley only operates once the staff have done ticket checks. If you have a shop open for longer you need more staff.

So onboard they wont have a driver a TM and then a customer service host?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

So onboard they wont have a driver a TM and then a customer service host?

Like Lumo currently, the service to Stirling will be Driver Only Operated (DOO) with an (technically optional) "Ambassador" who will do the ticket check, help with enquiries and the refreshments, and who can also dispatch the train in limited circumstances.

When the Lumo Class 222s are reformed into 6-car sets, I'd imagine the buffet vehicle will be removed completely, and more high density seating added in the other coaches, standard class only.

 

[Anonymous10]

Like Lumo currently, the service to Stirling will be Driver Only Operated (DOO) with an (technically optional) "Ambassador" who will do the ticket check, help with enquiries and the refreshments, and who can also dispatch the train in limited circumstances.

When the Lumo Class 222s are reformed into 6-car sets, I'd imagine the buffet vehicle will be removed completely, and more high density seating added in the other coaches, standard class only.

Always the option to just leave the shutters to the shop down if it's closed.

 

[liamf656]

Always the option to just leave the shutters to the shop down if it's closed.

As has been the case with these units for at least a decade now. It's only used as a trolley store nowadays

 

[ainsworth74]

As has been the case with these units for at least a decade now. It's only used as a trolley store nowadays

I was on one last Sunday where the shop was in operation...

 

[Anonymous10]

As has been the case with these units for at least a decade now. It's only used as a trolley store nowadays

Ah ok, sorry living in west wales I've only got experience of tfw and their mark 4's what i was alluding to is if they so chose they could keep the shutters closed when not staffed.

 

[lrbvoyager]

Like Lumo currently, the service to Stirling will be Driver Only Operated (DOO) with an (technically optional) "Ambassador" who will do the ticket check, help with enquiries and the refreshments, and who can also dispatch the train in limited circumstances.

When the Lumo Class 222s are reformed into 6-car sets, I'd imagine the buffet vehicle will be removed completely, and more high density seating added in the other coaches, standard class only.

With the avanti shops they aren’t open all the time but only when the crew are able to operate them.

 

[liamf656]

Ah ok, sorry living in west wales I've only got experience of tfw and their mark 4's what i was alluding to is if they so chose they could keep the shutters closed when not staffed.

Absolutely, I was just backing your point up, sorry if it sounded otherwise

I was on one last Sunday where the shop was in operation...

Sometimes if the train is too busy they'll continue the usual trolley service but static from the bar. It's all the same usually

 

[43066]

I was on one last Sunday where the shop was in operation...

Was that the rail gourmet host? They use the shop space sometimes.

 

[notadriver]

Like Lumo currently, the service to Stirling will be Driver Only Operated (DOO) with an (technically optional) "Ambassador" who will do the ticket check, help with enquiries and the refreshments, and who can also dispatch the train in limited circumstances.

When the Lumo Class 222s are reformed into 6-car sets, I'd imagine the buffet vehicle will be removed completely, and more high density seating added in the other coaches, standard class only.

There are always 2 other staff in addition to the driver on a Lumo train. 222s can’t be DOO as no cameras.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are always 2 other staff in addition to the driver on a Lumo train. 222s can’t be DOO as no cameras.

Cameras could be fitted as they have been to the 350s (though not presently used). Or perhaps more likely some other kind of dispatch arrangement could be put in place - the 442s (bringing them into yet another thread ) were run DOO without cameras in their latter days as there were dispatchers at all stations they served.

 

[lrbvoyager]

Cameras could be fitted as they have been to the 350s (though not presently used). Or perhaps more likely some other kind of dispatch arrangement could be put in place - the 442s (bringing them into yet another thread ) were run DOO without cameras in their latter days as there were dispatchers at all stations they served.

Might sound stupid but as someone who lives in Cumbria I haven’t seen any train being DOO. For example when avanti staff dispatch a 222 at Carlisle how would they go about it?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

For example when avanti staff dispatch a 222 at Carlisle how would they go about it?

Dispatch whisle
Driver closes doors
Dispatch whistle
Train leaves

 

[LowLevel]

Cameras could be fitted as they have been to the 350s (though not presently used). Or perhaps more likely some other kind of dispatch arrangement could be put in place - the 442s (bringing them into yet another thread ) were run DOO without cameras in their latter days as there were dispatchers at all stations they served.

I do recall a cab ergonomic assessment concluding that 22x would struggle to be fitted with CCTV screens in the cab but that was some time ago and technology has moved on I suppose. I still suspect they'll be dispatched by the crew, probably self dispatched to save money.

 

[lrbvoyager]

Won’t

I do recall a cab ergonomic assessment concluding that 22x would struggle to be fitted with CCTV screens in the cab but that was some time ago and technology has moved on I suppose. I still suspect they'll be dispatched by the crew, probably self dispatched to save money.

be able to self dispatch at Carlisle and Preston.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jun 2025 ==

Won’t

be able to self dispatch at Carlisle and Preston.

Won’t be able*

 

[Driver068]

Would they go through the effort of screens and cameras for the whole DOO process when the 222s are temporary

 

[hux385]

Why can't they self dispatch at Carlisle and Preston? They do it at Edinburgh Waverley currently (and presumably Newcastle and Kings Cross too).

 

[themiller]

Why can't they self dispatch at Carlisle and Preston? They do it at Edinburgh Waverley currently (and presumably Newcastle and Kings Cross too).

Carlisle is an Avanti managed station and they dispatch all passenger trains.

 

[lrbvoyager]

Why can't they self dispatch at Carlisle and Preston? They do it at Edinburgh Waverley currently (and presumably Newcastle and Kings Cross too).

Carlisle is managed by Avanti and the staff who manage the station dispatch every single train that leaves the station whether it be the Caledonian sleeper or the local northern services. They said if the lumo services weren’t dispatch by them they would strike.

 

[The Middle]

Carlisle is managed by Avanti and the staff who manage the station dispatch every single train that leaves the station whether it be the Caledonian sleeper or the local northern services. They said if the lumo services weren’t dispatch by them they would strike.

Second time I've seen this threat come up. What impact do they think striking would have on a self-dispatching Lumo service exactly?

 

[lrbvoyager]

Second time I've seen this threat come up. What impact do they think striking would have on a self-dispatching Lumo service exactly?

If they go on strike the station can’t open meaning lumo wont be able to have passengers board at Carlisle or disembark. (I believe!)

 

[The Middle]

If they go on strike the station can’t open meaning lumo wont be able to have passengers board at Carlisle or disembark. (I believe!)

I'll be honest, that still doesn't add up to me. There would inevitably be contingent staff to open the station (as there have been during numerous strikes over the last few years) and the lack of dispatchers would then continue to have zero impact on any self-dispatching service.

It just sounds to me that it would be a completely pointless exercise.

 

[lrbvoyager]

I'll be honest, that still doesn't add up to me. There would inevitably be contingent staff to open the station (as there have been during numerous strikes over the last few years) and the lack of dispatchers would then continue to have zero impact on any self-dispatching service.

It just sounds to me that it would be a completely pointless exercise.

I get what you mean. I guess when you have a system that works why change it? Even when LNER diverts they get dispatched by avanti staff. I was told they have a very strong union. Do you know if Avanti can refuse lumo services at Carlisle?

 

[The Middle]

I get what you mean. I guess when you have a system that works why change it? Even when LNER diverts they get dispatched by avanti staff. I was told they have a very strong union. Do you know if Avanti can refuse lumo services at Carlisle?

Lumo would have to enter in a station access agreement with Avanti however I believe the ORR could direct this as Lumo have firm rights to call at the station.