First post - split ticket challenged today

[RAZOR1965]

Hello

I've just come across your forum today and I'm hooked.

I regularly travel from Liverpool to Surrey by train and as a std return fare is £279 and 1st class £427 I have to do a bit of work splitting to get an acceptable fare.

My normal 'mo' is a 1st class ticket from Liverpool to Stafford at £22 (an extra £3.50) for which I get a paper, many coffees, orange juice, cornflakes, cooked breakfast and toast and jam. Great value to be honest. At Stafford I go into std class to use the rest of my split tickets.

Today's fare was £22 plus Stafford to Milton Keynes Central at £33 and Milton Keynes to Sunbury at £24. As this leaves Liverpool at 5:27 its not bad value (I think). Although the train stops at MKC the service is not showing as a service when I look into MKC to Euston journeys although I could not see a 'alighting only' bit on the timetable.

Today, the 'ticket inspector' had seen me in first class then he checked my ticket in std class. He said 'are you going all the way to London' to which I replied 'yes' and showed him the MKC to Sunbury ticket. He then said, in full view of other passengers 'you're not supposed to do this'. He then went on to say I'm just avoiding paying the full fare (duh!!). I asked him if it was 'against the rules' to which he just repeated 'you're just not supposed to do it'. He stopped short of saying I had to leave or buy another ticket so I didn't challenge him, although I did not know chapter and verse what I should have told him. Surely he was way out of order? Is he allowed to do it? Should I complain to anybody?

Is there anything I can print to show him and get him to bugger off making me look good instead of a pratt like today?

One other thing, am I actually allowed to partake of breakfast or as one other inspector told me as he checked my ticket between crewe and stafford, 'the food is only meant to be for people travelling to London'. I've looked everywhere and I can't find any reference to this.

Regards

Ian

 

[b0b]

There certainly is some debate on whether you can split at a station that is set-down/pick-up only but it's a distinction that doesn't currently appear.

The relevant part is condition 19 in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage...

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire
journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.


edit:

what train did you catch from Stafford?

edit 2: Oh, you're staying on the same train. Then you're fine. The train is shown as making a call at MKC in the timetable, and it has no set-down only/pick-up only in the National Rail Timetable.

 

[RAZOR1965]

Hi Bob

The virgin trains timetable does not show that MKC is a set-down/pick-up only stop so I am assuming its not. I mentioned it only in case it was relevant.

I was on the same train from Liverpool to Euston. 5:27 depart. 6:21 stafford to MKC arriving there at 7:12 I think then onto London.

Thanks

Ian

 

[b0b]

What is the ticket code on the Stafford to MKC ticket? I don't see one in Avantix that is £33.

If you still have the ticket, reply with

whats in fields 1, 2, 5 (if any), 14, 15, 16, 18, 19

 

[RAZOR1965]

1 - STD
2 - ADVANCE
5 - BLANK

Fields don't appear the same after that.

Fromtafford Valid until 25-oct-10 Price:£33.50X

To

Milton Keynes Central Route:Virgin Trains Only Validity:BOOKEDTRAINONLY

Hope this is enough.

Ian

 

[b0b]

If you were sitting in the correct seat on the correct train for the Stafford-Milton Keynes Central leg, then I can't see anything you did wrong...

Since the Ticket Inspector also did not attempt to sell you the "correct ticket" I'm guessing he can't see anything wrong either

 

[RAZOR1965]

Ok, so next time I shall berate him for being rude and even report him.

He has no right to speak to me like he did.

Ian

 

[b0b]

The necessary proof:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/May10/timetables/Table65.pdf

The "official" timetable, page 65, showing the 0527 service to Euston. Note the train calls at both STA and MKC and does not have the "s" for set-down;

Page 8 of the NRCOC linked above, showing Condition 19;

all tickets + reservation "ticket" for the STA to MKC section.

 

[nedchester]

You are legally avoiding to pay the full fare. The train stops at MK to set down/ pick up.

Next time tell the inspector to mind his own business!! (Great idea to get a free breakfast between Liverpool and Stafford!)

 

[bengolding]

One other thing, am I actually allowed to partake of breakfast or as one other inspector told me as he checked my ticket between crewe and stafford, 'the food is only meant to be for people travelling to London'. I've looked everywhere and I can't find any reference to this.

Regards

Ian

That's the first I've heard anybody say that. I go to MKC occasionally from the West Midlands and never have I been declined breakfast because I'm not going all the way to Euston. From New St, it's a comparable journey time with Liverpool to Stafford although the First Anytime single is far more than £22!

The guard was way out of order in how he treated you in front of fellow passengers. You had a perfectly acceptable combination of tickets for your journey and I would make a formal complaint to VT.

 

[John @ home]

You have my sympathy for the way you were treated. There can be no doubt that your combination of tickets is valid for the journey you made.

If I were treated like that, I would be inclined to carry a print-out of the appropriate part of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage in future and, if necessary, to ask the ticket inspector, in full view of other passengers, to show you precisely which condition you are alleged to be be in breach of and, if unable to do this, to go away.

 

[yorkie]

Welcome to the forum Glad you like it!

I hope you got his name (my advice is to always get the name, however it shouldn't be necessary for Virgin to investigate as they can work it out)

I know a friendly VT guard, and I know people who know lots of them. Send me a PM (you need one more post first) and I will make enquiries for you. Believe me, guards who act like this, who make life difficult for their colleagues, do get 'noticed'.

I advise you complain to Virgin and say that you would like assurances that you will not experience this problem in future. Say that if no satisfactory response is received you will be contacting Passenger Focus.

This train is not set-down only at MKC. Splitting tickets at MKC is totally valid and legitimate.

 

[b0b]

Ok, so next time I shall berate him for being rude and even report him.

He has no right to speak to me like he did.

Ian

If you really wanna annoy him next time, get a confirmation email from VT that your tickets are valid; print off few copies of your splits and the confirmation and hand them to people that are on the 0527 - i'm sure he won't be amused if he runs into a trainful of people using the same combo

and you'll be doing the passengers a favour by saving them a decent chunk of change as well as making them think about splits

 

[RAZOR1965]

Do we really want as many people as possible to know about 'splitting'. Won't they end up just taking away these cheap tickets or changing the rules?

Or is it that I don't understand who is setting the rules?

Ian

 

[Chapeltom]

Ticket splitting is an ideal way to save money without anyone knowing! I don't like telling others, even my mates who aren't clever enough to buy railcards. If you want to pay OTT then you can do and I'll pay a ridiculously low fare. It is possible to split on one line, Chinley to MAN is £5.30 return with a Y-P railcard. Split at Marple its £4.90! Virtually everyone who travels on this stretch of line is being conned without realising!

Ticket splits through PTE areas. E.g. Chinley to Silsden with a Y-P railcard is £15.85, split at Wakefield and its £10.15! Chapel en le Frith to Wigan is £9.05, split at Hazel Grove its £5.85. How are PTE fares set and who controls them?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again . . . . .

Travelling with "Split Tickets" is not necessarily cheaper than travelling on a straight-through ticket.

So people who assume that there might be less committment to carry a passenger because they've paid less for their tix, or who assume that these are obscure anomolies of ticketing which might be removed if publicised, are missing the fact that in SOME cases, buying tickets for a journey in 2 parts will cost less and in SOME cases they will cost more.

I've had to pay more than I need have done several times in the past because I had one ticket already and bought another to extend my journey - its just a consequence of market forces influencing the prices set by the TOCs for each journey possibility.

 

[yorkie]

Very true, Dave.

It can also be cheaper to buy further, which is, I guess by definition, the opposite of 'splitting'!

Although I'd like to point out that if you wish to extend your journey, then it is usually possible to (indeed you should usually be offered an) excess.

This wouldn't apply in certain cases though such as where the through ticket would not permit the journey being undertaken (e.g. if you live in Liverpool, had a meeting in London the next day but wanted to visit friends in Scarborough first. At least two tickets would be required)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Do we really want as many people as possible to know about 'splitting'.

I'm inclined to say yes.

Won't they end up just taking away these cheap tickets or changing the rules?

I'd say generally not. It's already very well known.

Buying further is more likely to result in a cheap ticket option being 'taken away' (price increased and/or Routeing Guide amendment) . It depends on the circumstances.

Or is it that I don't understand who is setting the rules?

The rules are set by ATOC but the individual tickets are set by an individual TOC, which will depend on the route.

 

[b0b]

I was afraid yorkie was gonna tell at me for suggesting you make your split more well known to other passengers of the 0527

I don't really see how they can stop splitting - other than changing the fares so splitting isn't worth it.

And as we've seen, some TOC staff will try and take advantage of the fact you split tickets to deny you further travel even if its their fault that they caused you to miss the next segment of your split and your ticket is no longer valid...

Can't have it both ways

 

[Ferret]

And as we've seen, some TOC staff will try and take advantage of the fact you split tickets to deny you further travel even if its their fault that they caused you to miss the next segment of your split and your ticket is no longer valid...

Can't have it both ways

Of course, a TOC *could* argue that a customer splitting tickets is wanting it both ways too - buying split tickets to save money but then wanting the same level of protection regarding onward travel as somebody who didn't split tickets and therefore bought the more expensive fare. Just a thought...

 

[Scotty]

If a DVD boxset (3 series) costs £20, yet individually they cost £6 each, would you expect to see something different on screen?

 

[Flamingo]

Getting a fair few people on split tickets at Didcot on the evening trains from London these days who say that their company has bought them the tickets at they are cheaper.

HOWEVER, if they are on trains that;
1. don't stop at Didcot (therefore ticket is invalid, get your wallet out to buy a new Rdg - Swi ticket, it's up to your office manager to let you know the T&C and I did announce them at Reading anyway), and/or
2. Because of the different times of off-peak too and beyond Swindon, on the 16.00, 16.15. 16.30 they are paying MORE for an ANYTIME to Didcot and then (usually Anytime) Didcot - to wherever than an OFF-PEAK from PAD to Wherever would cost anyway.

I usually enlighten them after hitting their expenses account for a few more bob if justified, as I'd rather they knew for next time. If they are there after Reading anyway on a non-Didcot stopper, it's usually as they have ignored the announcements that their tickets are not valid, change at Reading anyway!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If a DVD boxset (3 series) costs £20, yet individually they cost £6 each, would you expect to see something different on screen?

:roll:

 

[londonbridge]

One of the best splits I did was several years back when I was organising some football travel and going to Blackburn. The cheapest ticket I could find between Euston and Blackburn was a saver return at £55.90,changing at Preston. Instead I picked up the old virgin 'Saturday Day Out' ticket between London and Preston for £24,and a day return from Preston to Blackburn was £3.90.

 

[Scotty]

I often find there are cheaper splits when you are returning the same day, but cannot get a day return, instead it's just a return valid for a month between you start and end points. Splitting into day returns can then reduce the price.

 

[premier01]

That is riduculous and that is incorrect-the only restriction is the time you have to wait for the food and to eat it before moving to Standard section.

There are some unfriendly staff on VT but in the main I find them helpful and friendly.

 

[RAZOR1965]

Well, at least I'm armed with the info I need. I will make sure its not me that's embarrassed in future. In fact, I can't wait. Woe betide them.

Seems some of these ticket inspectors think they own the railway and don't see us as 'customers' in this modern world.

I think I'll start splitting more often just to be awkward.

Ian

 

[tannedfrog]

Getting a fair few people on split tickets at Didcot on the evening trains from London these days who say that their company has bought them the tickets at they are cheaper.

HOWEVER, if they are on trains that;
1. don't stop at Didcot (therefore ticket is invalid)

but if they had a travelcard season, their ticket would be valid even without stopping at Didcot, right?

 

[jon0844]

Yes that would make it valid.

 

[Flamingo]

but if they had a travelcard season, their ticket would be valid even without stopping at Didcot, right?

Yes, if one is a season ticket. Two "ordinary" tickets or two season tickets have a problem. I always try to announce it when leaving London and arriving at Reading, if for no other reason than it (hopefully) reduces the amount of arguments I'm going to have when doing tickets. I'd much prefer to stamp a valid ticket, say "Thank you" and move on (even if I am on commission!).

 

[tony_mac]

If someone had a non-season ticket from Didcot to Paddington then it won't be valid on a non-stopping train.

If they had a non-season ticket from Didcot to Ealing (not London), and a travelcard season, then the point is debatable. Taking the rules literally, it would be allowed - and there has been some correspondance with ATOC that also suggest this would be valid on trains that don't stop at Didcot.

 

[tannedfrog]

What do you think Flamingo?
Would you accept:

Travelcard Season on Oyster +
Ealing to Didcot paper ticket +
Didcot to Swindon paper ticket

On a train that doesn't stop at Ealing or Didcot?