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First Past The Post - suitable election system, or not?

Is FPTP suitable for the UK in 2017?

  • Yes

    Votes: 14 16.1%
  • No

    Votes: 73 83.9%

  • Total voters
    87
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DynamicSpirit

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FPTP works where there is a binary choice and a uniform spread of electorate. FPTP was designed in a time when your choice was Tory or Whig and only people with money had the vote. And it was effective for that time.

I'd argue that FPTP doesn't even work when there's a binary choice: If you consider that a basic requirement in a binary choice is that the party who gets the most votes wins the most seats - that's something that FPTP often fails at. The most obvious UK example is in 1951, when the Conservatives [*] secured an absolute majority in Parliament despite getting fewer votes than Labour. Something similar happened in February 1974 when Labour got more seats (though without a majority) despite the Conservatives getting more votes.

In the USA presidential elections are done using the electoral college - which amounts to the same thing as FPTP for all practical purposes. Politics there are much more binary than in the UK, yet still, in both 2000, and 2016, the 'wrong' person won - in the sense that their FPTP electoral college handed victory to the person who came second, not first, in the votes.


[*] Strictly speaking the Conservatives and National Liberals. The two parties were in an alliance at the time but the National Liberals later merged into the Conservatives.
 
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Clansman

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For Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, I reckon FPTP gives us a bigger influence in parliament. Although I prefer our system, AMS.

The downside for us and FPTP is that we'll always get a government we didn't vote for, which is why AMS is probably the most favourable for the UK.

Time to move on from 20th-century politics.
 

Barn

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If I were starting afresh with a blank page, I might have nationwide PR in the Commons and then, instead of the Lords, the mayor of each local authority would be seconded to the upper chamber to provide the local voice.
 

Groningen

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If (i repeat if) i in the future have the time and have the complete Dutch elections of March 2017; i like treat it like a kind of district elections (as in the UK). Yesterday the building of a new government collapsed for a second time. Like to see whether there is a difference with that March elections.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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I'm not sure Belgium is such a good example. There was an election on 13 June 2010. The government wasn't sworn in until 6 December 2011!

I support PR but we do need to be careful what we wish for.

But as I said it doesn't seem to have done them any harm. It might also be that many people would welcome at least a small period when politicians have no direct influence on the direct running of government departments. Some might even prefer a set-up where politicians have only short spells of influence on said departments, ie setting policy direction, then back away to deal only with the unexpected events that occur and are not covered by previous policy directives.
 

Starmill

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Not remotely. Single Transferable Vote of Additional Member System are demonstrably far more suitable. There are a few, minor (different) drawbacks to each, such as unusually large constituencies, especially in sparsely populated areas, plus all of the issues over the difficulty and complexity of boundary review, but on the whole they are a small price to pay. All of the arguments about the types of result are immaterial to my mind, the vote shares are the most important thing if you believe that Democracy is 'a numbers game' - and most people do not go as far as to deny that.

A truly proportional system removes the risks of the Spoiler Effect (tactical voting that leads to 2-party dominance) and represents the population far more closely than FPTP ever could.
 
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Senex

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All the above being said and noted, can anyone foresee any changes to FPTP within the foreseeable future being enacted?
No, because the electoral system in this country belongs to the politicians, not the people, and they have no interest in changing it whilst it still gives their two major parties turn and turn about.
 

Tetchytyke

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What would be the result of a referendum FPTP vs AMS/STV?

People don't understand the different voting systems- I don't truly understand everything, and I studied this stuff at degree level- and so I don't think a referendum would ever give an informed outcome. It would depend on which way the political wind was blowing.
 

bavvo

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I very much like hung parliaments. Means nothing extremist gets through. Means the governing party needs to try and work with the opposition to attempt to get some of their MPs to vote with the Government. Why isn't there to like about hung parliaments? It PR gives more hung parliaments than FPTP then bring it on!

100%

I doubt we would have seen the poll tax under a hung parliament, to give one example.

Or rail privatisation, or for that matter, rail nationalisation. :)
 
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bavvo

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FPTP doesn't even guarantee 'strong and stable' governments when a single party does win a majority. Parties are themselves coalitions of interest, often with deep divisions. Look at John Majors term, torn apart by rival pro and anti Europe factions, and look at the Blairite and Momentum wings in Labour.
 

bavvo

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If I were starting afresh with a blank page, I might have nationwide PR in the Commons and then, instead of the Lords, the mayor of each local authority would be seconded to the upper chamber to provide the local voice.

That's not a bad idea at all, although it does beg the question, how are the Mayors elected?
 

radamfi

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FPTP doesn't even guarantee 'strong and stable' governments when a single party does win a majority. Parties are themselves coalitions of interest, often with deep divisions. Look at John Majors term, torn apart by rival pro and anti Europe factions, and look at the Blairite and Momentum wings in Labour.

Those are artefacts of the voting system. Such factions need to stay in the same party as separation would lead to splitting the vote.
 

TheNewNo2

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People don't understand the different voting systems- I don't truly understand everything, and I studied this stuff at degree level- and so I don't think a referendum would ever give an informed outcome. It would depend on which way the political wind was blowing.

Democracy is truly a terrible system, unfortunately it's the best solution that has yet been found. I'm more pro-representational democracy though, with emphasis on the representational. One of the reasons I object to elected police commissioners is I don't think it's an appropriate thing for people to vote on. It will inevitably come down to party, when what should matter are qualifications. Further, I'm not in a position to judge which person for the job is best qualified. I can't do that for police commissioner, and I certainly can't judge adequately whether or not a nuclear power station should bebuilt in Surrey. The best I can do is pick a local representative, based on sharing my values, and hope that they, being able to devote their time to such issues, will know better what to do than I do.

Of course, for that we need elected representatives who share our values, and I'm afraid FPTP doesn't do that. If we wish to keep single representative districts, we should at least move to Single Transferable Vote (STV), so that people can vote for who they want rather than who they think has a chance. I would like to see some for of Proportional Representation, as I think the current system is unfair. Not only to the parties I like, like the Greens, but also to those I abhor, such as UKIP and the BNP. In 2015 UKIP scored 12.6% of the vote, more than the SNP and Lib Dems combined, yet they got only one MP. That's a travesty. The SNP got 60% the Lib Dem vote but 600% more MPs. If this happened in Africa we'd demand action, but because we're a first world country it's just the way things have always been done...
 

Tetchytyke

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Democracy is truly a terrible system, unfortunately it's the best solution that has yet been found.

My point wasn't against democracy, just that referendums (referenda?) are very often a poor way of reaching a decision.

It's hard to reach a considered and nuanced position on, well, anything really, when you tie yourself to a tyranny of the majority.

bavvo said:
Look at John Majors term, torn apart by rival pro and anti Europe factions, and look at the Blairite and Momentum wings in Labour.

Not the best example. John Major had a minority government by the end, being propped up by the Unionists. Sound familiar?
 

Tetchytyke

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we had our chance to change the electoral system and most people couldn't be bothered to vote.

And those that could be bothered to vote decided that they didn't like Nick Clegg.

hardly the strongest decision for voting in a referendum.
 

Bletchleyite

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we had our chance to change the electoral system and most people couldn't be bothered to vote.

No, we had our chance to vote for AV which I didn't at the time want. I would have voted for STV or another true PR system.

I think in retrospect AV would have been better (it isn't PR but it does prevent wasted votes), but obviously opinions do change.

The referendum should have been two-step - status quo vs change, then which is the preferred option for change. Just like a certain other referendum should have been.
 

takno

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No, we had our chance to vote for AV which I didn't at the time want. I would have voted for STV or another true PR system.

I think in retrospect AV would have been better (it isn't PR but it does prevent wasted votes), but obviously opinions do change.

The referendum should have been two-step - status quo vs change, then which is the preferred option for change. Just like a certain other referendum should have been.

I never understood the people who voted against AV because there was another system they preferred. It seemed like such an obvious trap to prevent any progress.

Personally I'd be fine with AV, or D'Hondt as done in Scotland.

I'm a bit wary of pure STV. It works well in local council elections because the multi-member wards are still relatively small, and it creates well-balanced councils that have to talk and work together, rather fiefdoms and wild swings that represent national politics more than local issues. For MPs you'd potentially have to go dozens of miles to meet one of your representatives, and it would be easy for people at the periphery of regions to get forgotten about.
 

me123

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Obviously FPTP is a terrible voting system. We've seen that it's prone to gerrymandering, it tends to a bipartisan system, and it gives immense power to a small number of voters whilst effectively disenfranchising swathes of the population. It takes something cataclysmic to produce real change (case and point - the Scottish referendum in 2014 and subsequent election in 2015) and even then produces wild swings. Clearly the SNP's phenomenal success in 2015 was ridiculous, but not really any more so than the dominance of Labour that preceded it. It took a constitutional referendum to produce that swing and eliminate Labour's safe seats, and even then many of the seats will settle down into safe seats (be it for Labour, SNP, Conservative, Lib Dem).

FPTP marginalises voters in safe seats and results in minimal campaigning. It tends to produce majority governments that lack the support of the majority of the electorate. In swing seats, tactical voting is necessary.

Proponents of FPTP talk about strong and stable government. In reality, it produces a bipolar government that swings dramatically from right to left and back again at the whim of a relatively small number of voters.

We need to change the system.

My preferred method is the STV. By ranking candidates in order, you can express a true opinion of your favourite to least favourite candidates. ("Vote 'til you Boak" as they say in Scotland). You don't have to worry about how others vote; if you vote for a minor party and they are eliminated, your second preference comes into play. Lots of the minor parties will actually benefit because they'll attract voters that wouldn't have voted for them under FPTP, and you could see quite different results. Rather than Labour and Tories, perhaps it turns out that the Llama Appreciation Party actually has broad support of the electorate and deserves a seat. And maybe their voice should be heard. By having multiple MPs, you have multiple people to approach. If one MP is a deadweight, you can approach another. If they aren't helpful/don't agree with you, you can find a member who will be helpful. If one MP is elected/appointed to a position such as Speaker, PM, Chancellor or any other major role that significantly takes time away from their constituency work, then they can absolutely take on that role knowing that their constituents have not been abandoned (how on earth John Bercow gets elected despite being completely unable to represent his constituents is beyond me).

STV would see the UK split into larger constituencies that elect a larger number of MPs. This is relatively easy for densely populated areas (the seven Glasgow seats could easily be merged into a Glasgow constituency, for example, that would elect seven MPs). Even relatively rural areas could manage - North Wales could be split into two or three larger constituencies without a huge fuss I reckon. Only the most rural areas would truly have the issue of local representation - the Far North of Scotland and Mid Wales come to mind here. But it's still perfectly possible to ensure that local voices remain heard - there are still the same number of MPs per head of the population, and you could easily pass a law mandating that regular surgeries etc be held across the enlarged constituencies.

The big issue for me with STV is by-elections. Where only one member resigns/dies/is removed from their seat, the election to replace them becomes an AV election. And herein lies a problem. Take a hypothetical constituency where Party A has three members, B has two and C has just one. If the member from party C dies, the by-election will invariably elect a member from Party A making the system less proportional. This did happen - in one of my Scottish Council constituencies we had a lot of by-elections due to the sad death of councillors - but the number of Labour members trebled in spite of a surge in SNP support because Labour remained the largest party. But by encouraging members to nominate a secondary in the event of vacating their seat (which could include a party list of secondaries to be agreed prior to the election), then the effect is somewhat mitigated. You do have the problem with a party list, but so does AMS.

I do like the AMS for Holyrood and Cardiff Bay - it solves the problem wherein a larger number of representatives is needed. That is not a problem Westminster has, so I'm not hugely enthusiastic about expanding the system to there. You still need to enlarge constituencies to achieve the aim, and they can still be gerrymandered at least on a constituency level. It also gives you a number of members without constituencies, potentially creating a "two-tier" system.

AV was not a sufficient change, but I despair that a significant number of people voted against the change because they'd rather have proper PR. This sent a message to the politicians that we are happy with the current system, and I think was a huge mistake. AV has lots of the problems that FPTP has, but is superior in that votes aren't wasted. So sadly, I have little hope that electoral reform will be on the table again within the foreseeable future.
 

bavvo

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Not the best example. John Major had a minority government by the end, being propped up by the Unionists. Sound familiar?

True, but he did start with a narrow majority (21), losing it via various resignations/deaths in a series of lost by-elections. This time round they have started where Major finished.... :lol:
 
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