First opportunity to purchase.

[Qwerty133]

Is there anywhere in the NRCOC that states whether missing a connection or knocking on cab doors can be expected of a passenger in order to purchase a ticket?
A member of platform staff has just told me that he would be directing revenue staff to myself for a penalty fare (would certainly have been an interesting penalty fare considering my origin was not a penalty fare station) if I boarded a connection despite delays meaning the connection was reduced to 3 minutes (from 11 minutes) and that I had to go to the ticket office and buy a ticket and catch the next train (a delay of over 30 mins) and said that I should have knocked on the cab door to buy a ticket from the guard on the first train (and pointed out even if the guards ticket machine wasn't working or he was busy elsewhere on the train the presence of a guard is automatically an opportunity to purchase) if I wanted to catch the planned connection.
Fortunately when I approached the TM he had a completely different attitude so the situation is sorted.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I should have knocked on the cab door to buy a ticket from the guard on the first train

lol I'd love to see a guards reaction if a train load of people tried that!

 

[AlterEgo]

The NRCoT does not elaborate on what a first opportunity to purchase is. There is no requirement to approach a guard, certainly.

 

[Romilly]

The information box at 6.1 of the 11 March 2018 version of the National Rail Conditions of Travel (the information box contents are non-contractual but represent the rail industry's interpretation of the contractual conditions) says (after explaining the cases when you are allowed to board a train without first having bought a ticket):

INFORMATION: This means that you should buy a ticket from the conductor on the train if there is one available; at an interchange station provided there is sufficient time before your connecting service; or, if neither of these is possible, at your destination.

Immediately before the Information Box, condition 6.1 says:

In these cases, you must, as soon as you are reasonably able, buy an appropriate Ticket to complete your journey. The price of the Ticket you purchase will be the same as if you had bought a Ticket at the station from which you first departed.

So the question is whether "as soon as you are reasonably able" requires you to be proactive in seeking out the guard on the first train. For myself, I would have thought that sometimes that might be reasonable but that at other times not. But I know others who post on here disagree.

 

[Qwerty133]

The information box at 6.1 of the 11 March 2018 version of the National Rail Conditions of Travel (the information box contents are non-contractual but represent the rail industry's interpretation of the contractual conditions) says (after explaining the cases when you are allowed to board a train without first having bought a ticket):

I can't think of any meaning of the word available that would include someone in a staff only area and 3 (2.5 considering doors close 30 seconds pre departure) minutes is clearly not sufficient time to go upstairs through a (usually unstaffed) ticket barrier buy a ticket and return through the ticket barrier and down stairs (and in any case the staff member agreed there wouldn't be time to purchase a ticket and catch the connection) so unless anyone can explain how either of those things are inaccurate I will consider that the member of staff was inaccurate in what he was saying.

 

[hexagon789]

lol I'd love to see a guards reaction if a train load of people tried that!

Ha ha, that would be fun!

 

[hexagon789]

Is there anywhere in the NRCOC that states whether missing a connection or knocking on cab doors can be expected of a passenger in order to purchase a ticket?

I have wondered if technically you could be expected to do that.

 

[sheff1]

I am struggling to understand why a member of platform staff would even be engaging with connecting passengers regarding ticketing. Can you elaborate.

 

[Qwerty133]

I am struggling to understand why a member of platform staff would even be engaging with connecting passengers regarding ticketing. Can you elaborate.

Because the railway doesn't communicate the advice is normally to speak to a member of staff wherever possible and platform staff are by far the easiest to approach when you have less than 5 minutes at a station.

 

[Starmill]

What I would say is, if you can speak to the guard, then by all means do so. They may or may not be able to sell you a ticket. If you can't, perhaps because they are carrying out other duties, they are in a non-public area or they are already busy speaking to many other customers, then don't worry about it. If you don't even know where the guard is, then there is really nothing you can do. You do not say where you are travelling, of course, there may not even be a guard.

You are not obliged to miss your connection because the guard was unavailable, whatever the reason for that. Someone claiming that is misinformed.

 

[island]

"Reasonably able" is a question of fact in each case and will depend on the specifics of the scenario. It may be very obvious that a passenger was reasonably able, such as when a ticket examiner had walked slowly passed saying "anyone need tickets" during his journey and he found a staffed excess window with no queue during a 20 minute connection. It may be very obvious that he was not, such as when he was on a DOO service and had to change cross platform in one minute. The in between is where it is not straightforward.

 

[185143]

I've boarded before and immediately asked the guard 'Can I have a ticket please' (I normally only do this in areas where I either should already have one-or will end up meeting Northern's agency RPIs) I've never once been refused or sold more than the off peak fare/rail ranger-with the exception of the guard at Leeds a few years back who I produced my Northern newspaper offer ticket to on the platform, (purely avoid the allegation that I'd travelled from further afield if I just asked for a ticket from Leeds), and was told to get on and not to worry about it that is.

 

[Stigy]

Is there anywhere in the NRCOC that states whether missing a connection or knocking on cab doors can be expected of a passenger in order to purchase a ticket?
A member of platform staff has just told me that he would be directing revenue staff to myself for a penalty fare (would certainly have been an interesting penalty fare considering my origin was not a penalty fare station) if I boarded a connection despite delays meaning the connection was reduced to 3 minutes (from 11 minutes) and that I had to go to the ticket office and buy a ticket and catch the next train (a delay of over 30 mins) and said that I should have knocked on the cab door to buy a ticket from the guard on the first train (and pointed out even if the guards ticket machine wasn't working or he was busy elsewhere on the train the presence of a guard is automatically an opportunity to purchase) if I wanted to catch the planned connection.
Fortunately when I approached the TM he had a completely different attitude so the situation is sorted.

As has been said, the NRCoT aren't specific. However, National Railway Byelaws dictate one should purchase a ticket prior to boarding the train for the purpose of travelling where facilities exist. If they don't exist, then staff should use common sense approach and sum up your specific situation. There's no requirement to find a Guard, but if you didn't approach the Guard, had 20-minutes to wait at a connecting station, and failed to purchase a ticket only to be stopped during a revenue exercise at an unstaffed station and your destination station, you'd almost certainly be liable for at the very least, a Penalty Fare Notice, assuming it was a penalty fare station. If it wasn't a Penalty Fare station and/or staff thought there was evidence to suggest you were trying to avoid payment (which in this case there would be), you could be reported for consideration of prosecution.

 

[WelshBluebird]

There's no requirement to find a Guard, but if you didn't approach the Guard, had 20-minutes to wait at a connecting station, and failed to purchase a ticket only to be stopped during a revenue exercise at an unstaffed station and your destination station, you'd almost certainly be liable for at the very least, a Penalty Fare Notice, assuming it was a penalty fare station

I was under the impression that penalty fare's could not be issued where the journey started at a station without any ticketing facilities, regardless of the opportunities during the journey?

And I also feel the need to point out that 20 minutes at a connecting station may not be enough time to actually buy a ticket, especially in the peak and especially at stations where you are directed out to the main ticket office instead of an unpaid fares booth. Certainly I have at issues at Bristol Temple Meads with a 20 minute connection time in the past!

 

[mallard]

Ideally, for consistency (I know that's a dirty word in the rail industry...) sake a "reasonable" time would be something like 2x minimum connection time + queuing time. How exactly you measure/estimate queuing time is left as an excerise for the reader...

 

[mmh]

Reminds me of the time I completely failed to buy a ticket. I had a return from Redhill to Swindon as that would be my starting point to use a Freedom of Severn and Solent 3-out-of-5-days rover, with my first journey on it being to Weston-super-Mare.

Before the day, I tried to buy the rover on-line, but the link on the GWR site didn't work; and I tried to buy it at a London Overground managed station - their machine either couldn't sell it or they couldn't work out how to make it sell it.

On the day, I tried to buy it at Redhill station (Southern managed) - the clerk was very helpful and knew what I was asking for, but couldn't find it. I asked him if he thought I might have more luck on-board the train, as being run by GWR perhaps the guard's ticket machine should be able to? Yes, that sounds sensible said the clerk, so off I went.

On the train from Redhill to Reading, the guard hadn't heard of the rover, did some poking with his machine but couldn't find it. He suggested I try at the excess fares window at Reading, and told me where to find it.

At Reading, the tannoy announcements were warning of full-and-standing trains due to some incident, and the first I saw left people behind on the platform. I queued at the excess fares window for 5 minutes and the passenger at the head of the queue still hadn't left, so I decided I'd just get on my next train (direct HST to Weston-s-Mare) rather than miss it and have to change again, especially with there being disruption. I'd try and buy it off the next guard I saw.

The train was completely full and I was squeezed in a vestibule. At Bristol the vast majority of passengers got off, and I could have gone in search of the guard (or looked to see where they were when they dispatched from one of the intermediate stations), but after all that I really couldn't be bothered.

I wonder what would have happened if there'd been a revenue protection-style ticket check exiting the station?

So my take on it is no, the passenger doesn't have any responsibility to jump through hoops to buy a ticket.

 

[bb21]

Ideally, for consistency (I know that's a dirty word in the rail industry...) sake a "reasonable" time would be something like 2x minimum connection time + queuing time. How exactly you measure/estimate queuing time is left as an excerise for the reader...

One of the rare occasions (I suspect) that we actually agree.

It would be a good start to codify at least some of the requirements, even if not all, especially for revenue issues which have the potential to land customers in deep trouble.

But as you correctly noted, consistency in the industry is a big ask.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Ideally, for consistency (I know that's a dirty word in the rail industry...) sake a "reasonable" time would be something like 2x minimum connection time + queuing time. How exactly you measure/estimate queuing time is left as an excerise for the reader...

If you are suggesting that someone should have to wait at Bristol Temple Meads for almost 30 minutes before giving up trying to buy a ticket, then sorry but that is insane.

To give an example, travelling from Oldfield Park to Shirehampton at 18.11, there is a 19 minute connection at Bristol Temple Meads. However this is towards the end of the local peak and that specific train from Oldfield Park to Bristol can be very busy with passengers from both Oldfield Park and Keynsham, two unmanned stations which lead to a large number of people needing to buy tickets on arrival at Temple Meads. If you waited your suggested time, you would miss the connection and be delayed by roughly 46 minutes - through no fault of your own, just the railways in ability to provide adequate ticketing facilities.

A passenger should NEVER have to miss a connection because of this issue. Never. I have been burned by it before (told to buy a ticket at the main ticket office at Temple Meads, only for that to have a huge queue and the gateline staff wouldn't let me back through the gates to get my train) and really think it is a disgrace.

ps - apologies if I am misunderstanding what you are suggesting - as I said I have been burned before with this so I do get a bit annoyed by it!

 

[najaB]

If you are suggesting that someone should have to wait at Bristol Temple Meads for almost 30 minutes before giving up trying to buy a ticket, then sorry but that is insane.

That isn't how I read the suggestion. I read it as a way to determine if a connection was 'too short' to present an opportunity to purchase or not. So that, for example, you had 12 minutes to make a connection at York the railway couldn't say "You had an opportunity to purchase." and try to prosecute.

 

[Chew Chew]

lol I'd love to see a guards reaction if a train load of people tried that!

I tried to do this last week.

Ticket machine at my unmanned station wasn't working and I needed to make a quick exit at the other end as I was running late and needed to get through the barriers quickly and get a taxi to my work before they were all gone.

Train comes into the station and I make a note the guard is in the rear carriage. I make my way down there and he's gone in the cab. I chapped on the door and it was ignored.

Meant I had to wait 5 minutes at my destination until someone manned the ticket booth, all the taxis were gone and I was 20 minutes for work.

 

[najaB]

Meant I had to wait 5 minutes at my destination until someone manned the ticket booth, all the taxis were gone and I was 20 minutes for work.

If you don't have an opportunity to purchase by the time you arrive at your destination station then I can't see how you're obligated to wait around at all.

 

[Chew Chew]

If you don't have an opportunity to purchase by the time you arrive at your destination station then I can't see how you're obligated to wait around at all.

Ticket barriers stopped me going anywhere.

 

[221129]

If you don't have an opportunity to purchase by the time you arrive at your destination station then I can't see how you're obligated to wait around at all.

If there are facilities at your destination you must use them...

 

[DaveNewcastle]

If you don't have an opportunity to purchase by the time you arrive at your destination station then I can't see how you're obligated to wait around at all.

Perhaps not if you are reflecting on the Criminal Law, but of course there is still a liability to pay for a service in Civil Law under the implied contract which is invoked when a passenger commences a journey without having paid their fare. In those circumstances, there is an obligation to pay, and a 'wait around' might be the most effective means to discharge that obligation.

If there are facilities at your destination you must use them...

. . . and if it is not a practically possible option for a reasonable and properly informed person to use them, then there still remains a debt for the unpaid fare; whether that debt is likely to be pursued or not depends very much on the facts of each incident on its own merits.

 

[najaB]

Perhaps not if you are reflecting on the Criminal Law, but of course there is still a liability to pay for a service in Civil Law under the implied contract which is invoked when a passenger commences a journey without having paid their fare. In those circumstances, there is an obligation to pay, and a 'wait around' might be the most effective means to discharge that obligation.

That is true. But you could equally leave name and address and a promise to pay. I certainly wouldn't make myself late for work or a meeting because the railway was in no rush to take my money.

 

[northken]

What's the option if travelling between two unmanned station without a ticket machine, and no guard?

A number of times I've had to travel between Montpelier and Clifton Down (only had cash). The journey is only 5 mins or so and the guards are almost always too busy to go round. Off peak there are rarely ticket examiners too.

I see it as quite legitimately a free journey unless the means to furnish GWR with the money are available.

 

[najaB]

I see it as quite legitimately a free journey unless the means to furnish GWR with the money are available.

The fare is still due and you could be pursued via civil means to recover it. In the real world, yes, it is effectively a free journey.

 

[cuccir]

It would be a good start to codify at least some of the requirements, even if not all, especially for revenue issues

The cynical response is that it's not in TOC's interest to do so, as any limit becomes a free pass to not buy a ticket or to lie if you're that way inclined. In the same way that ticket office queues are not codified for this matter.