First Midland Bluebird

[overthewater]

Which people? Where? Was there another referendum that I missed?
I thought we were only a couple of days into the operation of the west Lothian routes (and not long into First's new West Lothian network), so maybe it'd be too soon to reach judgement?
Or are we doing the usual thing of taking a handful of bitter comments on social media and extrapolating them to assume that thousands of people hold those views?.

There is a daily stream of people making comment about fares and weeklies to LCB on Social media ever since the fare details were released. Again people were asking this question at the road show, and LCB response has always been " This is the rate it believes it can operate on". Yet First with newer stock has lower fares but can still turn a profit? People are using the LCB become, A: its new, B: it's free since the amount of free day tickets it handed out, C: in same parts of like Craighills there is no different per say. LCB has someone at Livingston counting passengers etc

I don't know what Lothian's tactics are in West Lothian, I don't know what their "goal" is. But I don't think it's a bad thing that (if they are going to run to Livi/Bathgate) that they are doing so with realistic fares (rather than undercutting First with a £1.70 flat fare that would be unsustainable once First leave town(s). They are trying to provide a quality product, they are going for the high end of the market (rather than launching a MagicBus-style attack). I don't know if it'll work (First's West Lothian fleet today is a lot better than the rag-tag assortment of rattling Darts and knackered 'deckers that First operated in East Lothian). But it seems a bit early to start calling the final result, based on a few days of operation.

I'' never seen anyone to expect the £1.70, but people expect them to at least Match First. I agree it's not a bad thing LCB has come to West Lothian as it good for customers but the way it's going about this is just weird. The routes are slower, the fares are higher. Blue bus seems to be still holding its own.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

There is a daily stream of people making comment about fares and weeklies to LCB on Social media ever since the fare details were released. Again people were asking this question at the road show, and LCB response has always been " This is the rate it believes it can operate on". Yet First with newer stock has lower fares but can still turn a profit? People are using the LCB become, A: its new, B: it's free since the amount of free day tickets it handed out, C: in same parts of like Craighills there is no different per say. LCB has someone at Livingston counting passengers etc




I'' never seen anyone to expect the £1.70, but people expect them to at least Match First. I agree it's not a bad thing LCB has come to West Lothian as it good for customers but the way it's going about this is just weird. The routes are slower, the fares are higher. Blue bus seems to be still holding its own.

Despite my pessimism regarding first bus nowadays, I think lothian have thought deeper here, shortly 12hr bus lane operation will go ahead as well as edinburghs LEZ and mostly likely congestion charging will take place, of course there is no guarantee in these but I feel there is a truth in there somewhere and eventually more people will be using buses, particularly if the travel cost outways the cost of taking a car or train to edinburgh

 

[overthewater]

Back to First: I did ask the company, well certain person in control and he was totally useless..

https://www.falkirkherald.co.uk/our...mand-as-bus-travel-enters-a-new-era-1-4788454

Passengers said goodbye to the past when First Scotland East officially pulled out of Falkirk Bus Station on Sunday. Those same passengers then said hello to the new “hub” area in the town centre’s Upper Newmarket Street, which was teeming with buses and customers on Monday. In fact it was so busy buses were stretching half the length of the street and out into Hope Street at some points during the day, causing disruption as cars at the traffic lights attempted to head down towards the Howgate Shopping Centre car park. According to First Bus, the traffic hiccups experienced on the first day of the new operation were down to the sheer number of passengers getting on and off the buses and not the number of buses stopping off and picking up in Upper Newmarket Street. A First Scotland East spokesman said: “The same amount of buses are going through Newmarket Street, there hasn’t been an increase. It’s more to do with the number of people getting on the buses and we think this is a reaction to the change. “We will continue to monitor the situation and if we need to look at things again then we will do that.” The focus on Upper Newmarket Street is just one of a raft of network structure changes initiated by First, with services and routes being altered and, in some cases, dropped entirely.

First Scotland East operations director David Phillips said: “Our aim with these most recent network change proposals is to speed up journeys and create new links for customers. “This has seen us remove our services from Falkirk Bus Station, which has not been fit for purpose for a number of years now, and instead dedicate our services to the areas of the town where the majority of our customers are looking to get to. “We are aware this may mean changes to customers’ journeys, but we are confident it will improve our local bus network to the benefit of our passengers.” While the future of Upper Newmarket Street remains to be seen, the fate of the former Falkirk Bus Station is also not clear at this time. This week First Bus confirmed it owned the concourse – the pavements – the canopy over it and the land where the buses parked to let passengers on and off. Hannigan Hotels leased the drivers’ rest area at the bus station and ticket office, but, according to First, it was just not fit for purpose. Douglas Hannigan, of Hannigan Hotels, said: “The Stroh Brothers own the former Fads and Farmfoods stores, while Hannigans Hotels Ltd own the buildings and land from
Renellas to the Engine Room Gym and tattooist. “Hannigans Hotels Ltd is disappointed First Bus has moved, however, this was their decision. We did not increase the rent on the two units leased by First Bus – the ticket office and the staff rest room – and we did not refuse to carry out repairs. “All leases are under a standard full tenant repairing and insuring lease.” Mr Hannigan also addressed rumours circulating about the future of the businesses at the former bus station. He said: “There are no plans to demolish the site to build a hotel. There was a planning application to turn the two large shops – the former Crockets and Wolsley furniture shop – which haven’t rented into four smaller shops, with the upper floors converted into seven flats. “We have since remodelled the Remax shop for Oliphants the baker, and Falkirk building company offices, an empty upper office for Donald Watt financial advisor, the old Callander pharmacy for a cash for clothes business, and the upper area at Callander Road into the Engine Room gym and Liam Healy sports therapy – both new start businesses. “We continue to invest in Falkirk, buying derelict properties and encouraging businesses.” Both First Bus and Mr Hannigan claim the land at the middle of the bus station belongs to Storm nightclub owners, brothers David and William Johnstone. However, David Johnstone said all the land at the bus station – the turning circle – which goes around his Meadow Street nightclub, is owned by First Bus as far as he knows and he only owns the land on which Storm is located. First also stated this week the bus station was still being used by a number of tour operators at the moment, but were being encouraged to move to an alternative venue.

Read more at: https://www.falkirkherald.co.uk/our...mand-as-bus-travel-enters-a-new-era-1-4788454

 

[overthewater]

First are fighting back!

https://twitter.com/FirstScotland/status/1033331928261386240

We are in Livingston at The Centre @shopthecentre today and tomorrow handing out our new timetables. Come down and say hello!

 

[Sybic26]

Back to First: I did ask the company, well certain person in control and he was totally useless..

https://www.falkirkherald.co.uk/our...mand-as-bus-travel-enters-a-new-era-1-4788454

From the First Scotland East web site help section:
https://www.firstgroup.com/uploads/node_images/Falkirk_Bus_Station.pdf

Whilst there maybe the same number of buses passing through Newmarket Street. It is now a layover and crew change point, typical layover time of between 3 and 5 minutes.
For east bound services there are only two bus stops It does not take much for these stops to become congested, which in turn, at times, prevents westbound buses leaving Newmarket Street.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

I honestly wonder what pre tax-profit First East Scotland and Midland Bluebird are achieving these days if anything..anyone any ideas?

 

[Darklord8899]

I read an article somewhere on the old SBG and it stated (but annoying never gave a year) that Midland Scottish were at one point the 2nd most profitable company after Fife Scottish!

I have no idea how accurate the statement is. However, it is certainly interesting how things change, look at things like the use of private cars, people's work patterns changing, the way towns and cities grow and decline.... need good management to be able to survive!

 

[Gingerbus1991]

I read an article somewhere on the old SBG and it stated (but annoying never gave a year) that Midland Scottish were at one point the 2nd most profitable company after Fife Scottish!

I have no idea how accurate the statement is. However, it is certainly interesting how things change, look at things like the use of private cars, people's work patterns changing, the way towns and cities grow and decline.... need good management to be able to survive!

If it related to the SBG its likely been either before or just after 1986 when deregulation took place, like you say regarding changing times, work patterns etc, I would partially blame private bus group not keeping passengers, of course there will be many people in and around livingston, bathgate, falkirk and stirling who could be using the bus more often for work etc, its just many people over time have cars down to sheer convenience, perhaps id go as far as laziness as well!

I should add that its gonna become more expensive for car users to drive to our large cities with emission and congestion charging likely in City Centre!

 

[overthewater]

This would have been around the early 90s. Central was also the most profitable until deregulation. With Grampian brought over Midland it was claimed the company was over managed, had huge expensive workshops etc so there streamlined a lot of the company. While Eastern Scottish, were about to go pop..

 

[tbtc]

I read an article somewhere on the old SBG and it stated (but annoying never gave a year) that Midland Scottish were at one point the 2nd most profitable company after Fife Scottish!

I have no idea how accurate the statement is. However, it is certainly interesting how things change, look at things like the use of private cars, people's work patterns changing, the way towns and cities grow and decline.... need good management to be able to survive!

(with the obvious proviso that "second most profitable" bit of the SBG sounds a bit like damning it with faint praise, given the terrain that some SBG companies operated in, and didn't have juicy city routes in Edinburgh/ Glasgow/ Dundee/ Aberdeen)

Depends when the figures were from, but (after getting rid of Oban) Midland had a fairly tight operating area for 95% of it's fleet (Balfron and Callander were a fairly tiny part of the overall operation), it had some healthier routes competing against a lacklustre train service (remember the days of the X16, X17, X18, X19, X20 and X22, back when ScotRail only operated two trains per hour from Edinburgh to Glasgow).

Highland always seemed a basket case. A lot of the other operations had some large rural areas that can't have been profitable in Aberdeenshire/ Tayside/ Fife/ Ayrshire/ Borders/ Dumfries & Galloway etc. Depends when the quote is from, of course - e.g. was Eastern Scottish the "juicy" services around the fringes of Edinburgh or did it include the Borders services that later became Lowland... was Clydeside independent or part of Western... was this before the "bandits" came in to compete in Coatbridge/ Paisley etc with dodgy minibuses?

Kelvin/Central seemed to be profitable bus territory but beset by industrial problems from what I remember, so I wouldn't be surprised if they were dragged down by inefficiencies.

In hindsight, it's shame that Midland didn't go to Stagecoach - it seemed their kind of operation - a couple of medium sized places and a lot of scope for express motorway services into Edinburgh/ Glasgow - if they can maintain regular direct services from places like Anstruther into Edinburgh/ Glasgow then they'd have done great things with services from places that lack trains into Edinburgh/Glasgow (e.g. Callander, Grangemouth, Bo'Ness, Stirling University... Alloa too before the railway operated).

Compare and contrast the express service from Fife to Edinburgh/ Glasgow twenty years ago to the express service from "Stirlingshire" to Edinburgh/ Glasgow (there's the 909 to Edinburgh, the X37/X39 to Glasgow have been virtually unchanged between deregulation and the 2018 changes, but nothing like the transformation that Fife express services have had)

 

[Darklord8899]

Depends when the figures were from, but (after getting rid of Oban) Midland had a fairly tight operating area for 95% of it's fleet (Balfron and Callander were a fairly tiny part of the overall operation), it had some healthier routes competing against a lacklustre train service (remember the days of the X16, X17, X18, X19, X20 and X22, back when ScotRail only operated two trains per hour from Edinburgh to Glasgow).

It would have been interesting to know if this was before or after deregulation, as Midland's pre 1985/86 network was significantly different (larger) than post degregulation....

IIRC the following were only formed for the sell off:
Kelvin (gaining Milngavie, Kirkintilloch, Kilsyth, Stepps and Cumbernauld from Midland)
Strathtay
(Gaining Perth, Crieff, Blairgowrie and Pitlochry from Midland)

 

[overthewater]

IT was after deregulation...

 

[Darklord8899]

IT was after deregulation...

Thank you!

 

[GusB]

The SBG reorganisation occurred in 1985, which was before D-day in 1986. I believe the intention was to partly to match the various SBG subsidiaries with the then regional council boundaries, hence the formation of Strathtay from those depots of Northern and Midland which lay within the former Tayside Region. There were, of course, some exceptions with Midland taking over Linlithgow. Didn't they also regain Oban from Highland at this point, before those operations were spun off into Oban & District?

Clydeside, Kelvin and Lowland were the three other local companies formed during the reorganisation, and I'm fairly certain Citylink became a separate legal entity then, having previously just been a brand.

Central and Kelvin were merged in 1989, as were Clydeside and Western, although the latter two split again at privatisation.

 

[David 90825]

I honestly wonder what pre tax-profit First East Scotland and Midland Bluebird are achieving these days if anything..anyone any ideas?

In the year ending 25 March 2017 First Scotland East made an operating profit of £1 million. For the same period Midland Bluebird made an operating loss of £2.1 Million. The figures for the period ending March 2018 will not be available until later this year. The accounts are available through the Companies House website.

 

[Volvodart]

The above includes the loss on the East Lothian closure plus 4 and a half months of their losses and a full year's Borders results.

 

[overthewater]

Bingo, our new member needs to read this and First group thread to get up to speed

 

[Gingerbus1991]

In the year ending 25 March 2017 First Scotland East made an operating profit of £1 million. For the same period Midland Bluebird made an operating loss of £2.1 Million. The figures for the period ending March 2018 will not be available until later this year. The accounts are available through the Companies House website.

So essentially Falkirk and Stirling are making over a £2m loss?

Wow

 

[Volvodart]

It is not as simple as that. 70% of the losses were due to a reallocation change of group overheads, which we do not know why this happened and what it relates to. This happened in a lot of companies last year.

 

[Darklord8899]

....a lot of it comes down to nothing more than someone moving lumps of cash around on a piece of paper/computer.....

"Moving assests" "restructuring (costs)" "Deprecation" "reallocation"

A fair amount of smoke and mirrors, or am I being too cynical? o.^

 

[overthewater]

This week was the Stirling changes, and there have gone down like lead balloon. Worse of all is the uni services, which because of the idiotic members of staff ( who believed ticket machines ) failed to understand how long it take to load a bus up with people. This meant that nearly all the unilinks deckers were running late and traveling together even after being separated numerous times. The 53 was so bad it's had standing loads all day aswell. Turns out the ticket machines may have been rather misleading in its data, this may have also resulted in the cut on the 53, 62/63 and 38s. Also the new University Bus Hub isn't ready...

 

[Bluebirdscot66]

Doesn't surprise me anymore now .

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

....a lot of it comes down to nothing more than someone moving lumps of cash around on a piece of paper/computer.....

"Moving assests" "restructuring (costs)" "Deprecation" "reallocation"

A fair amount of smoke and mirrors, or am I being too cynical? o.^

Yes - there are certain things you have to do with regards accounting (GAAP principles), asset valuations and goodwill.

 

[Observer]

The question is, were they relying on data just from the new ticket machines, or before that too?

 

[overthewater]

The question is, were they relying on data just from the new ticket machines, or before that too?

Alas there has been a major overhaul in First Scotland East, which resulted in staff changes Ie paid off, moved, or had to reapply for new roles within the expanded company IE First Scotland... good people have been moved sideways and no longer have any control over parts. The new lot or people now running the show have only been looking at the data, and really are bunch of muppets, i wonder if the 62/63 was taken out because for the past 5 months the place has been without students..

 

[Volvodart]

This week was the Stirling changes, and there have gone down like lead balloon. Worse of all is the uni services, which because of the idiotic members of staff ( who believed ticket machines ) failed to understand how long it take to load a bus up with people. This meant that nearly all the unilinks deckers were running late and traveling together even after being separated numerous times. The 53 was so bad it's had standing loads all day aswell. Turns out the ticket machines may have been rather misleading in its data, this may have also resulted in the cut on the 53, 62/63 and 38s. Also the new University Bus Hub isn't ready...

I am sure everywhere has problems the first week of the new university year.

 

[overthewater]

Not after you take off 5 buses an hour and also scrape any layover time at the uni.

 

[smtglasgow]

Funnily enough I was up at Stirling Uni on Wednesday afternoon. AFAIK it was only freshers who were in the uni this week, but the UL was definitely struggling – lots of bunching. I drove through Stirling on the way home and as far as I could see the rest of the new network was coping fine. In fact none of the buses I saw were particularly busy for late afternoon – which might explain why First felt the need to reduce their services. One thing I hadn’t realised about First was just how many school services they must run. At lunchtime Bannockburn was full of double deckers – any idea what the vehicle requirement is for schools?

 

[Volvodart]

The m ticket app not working properly resulting in people having to buy cash or contactless fares will have also added time since the changes kicked in.

 

[matchmaker]

How many times have they changed the routes/numbering in the past 2 years?