First Leeds 70

[Bantamzen]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #8 originally from this thread.

Talking of which, there will be two route 70s in Leeds. I did ask Transdev how that was simpler. As is becoming usual with anyone asking why they're doing things, they ignored me.

https://twitter.com/harrogatebus/status/875610140010991619

The double use of the 70 route number could get interesting as the First Leeds 70 stops outside the train station (or will do again once the re-cladding of the old City House is done). But hey ho, joined up thinking and all that....

"Wetherby? Well I can take you as far as Leeds Dock, but you'll have to walk from there......."

 

[NorthernSpirit]

I don't think that many people know that Leeds has a 70 already, I didn't until I picked up a timetable from the First TravelShop on Vicar Lane and later saw the bus service itself which is in Urban? livery with an orange strip down the side.

Probably worth knowing that there is also two 257's one goes from Brighouse to Elland and the other goes from Homfirth to Stocksbridge.

 

[darloscott]

I don't think that many people know that Leeds has a 70 already, I didn't until I picked up a timetable from the First TravelShop on Vicar Lane and later saw the bus service itself which is in Urban? livery with an orange strip down the side.

Probably worth knowing that there is also two 257's one goes from Brighouse to Elland and the other goes from Homfirth to Stocksbridge.

The city centre silly shuttle that nobody knows about. Heads down to Leeds dock & Royal Armouries

 

[SCH117X]

The city centre silly shuttle that nobody knows about. Heads down to Leeds dock & Royal Armouries

Alex Hornby has had a number of meetings with Metro so I would expect the renumbering was discussed with them. Maybe the shuttle is going to be rebranded / renumbered to raise its profile.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Alex Hornby has had a number of meetings with Metro so I would expect the renumbering was discussed with them. Maybe the shuttle is going to be rebranded / renumbered to raise its profile.

Two possibilities for the First Leeds 70.

- It either becomes a 5A or a 70A
- It gets withdrawn.

What I find interesting is that WYCA doesn't print a timetable for it, that is left to First to do which is their one and only printed publication in West Yorkshire (shame that they couldn't have used an old FirstYork timetable from 2014 and used the cover on that as a template for the 70 along with a photo of the bus used parked up on Infirmary Street).

Interesting times ahead and probably one to look for in the upcoming changes from July onwards.

 

[Deerfold]

Two possibilities for the First Leeds 70.

- It either becomes a 5A or a 70A
- It gets withdrawn.

What I find interesting is that WYCA doesn't print a timetable for it, that is left to First to do which is their one and only printed publication in West Yorkshire (shame that they couldn't have used an old FirstYork timetable from 2014 and used the cover on that as a template for the 70 along with a photo of the bus used parked up on Infirmary Street).

Interesting times ahead and probably one to look for in the upcoming changes from July onwards.

I'd be surprised if any of these happen unless Allied London gets tired of sponsoring it - I suspect this might be why there's no WYCA timetable for it - I'm guessing they've specified what they wanted on the timetable. WYCA doesn't generally produce timetables where operators do.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

I'd be surprised if any of these happen unless Allied London gets tired of sponsoring it - I suspect this might be why there's no WYCA timetable for it - I'm guessing they've specified what they wanted on the timetable. WYCA doesn't generally produce timetables where operators do.

It must cost Allied London a fair bit to fund the service considering that the First 70 is quite frequent. I wonder if Allied London and Leeds City Council asked First to produce the timetable themselves (which to me makes a change) as both may have expected to see the 770/771 become the 70/71 at a later date? Although we won't know for sure.

 

[Bantamzen]

The city centre silly shuttle that nobody knows about. Heads down to Leeds dock & Royal Armouries

Even so it is shown on the city centre bus stop map, and uses the stop directly outside the main entrance, along with the 5 (for which interchangeable tickets are advertised). Plus the First 70s are clearly marked so there is the possibility of confusion.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I don't think that many people know that Leeds has a 70 already, I didn't until I picked up a timetable from the First TravelShop on Vicar Lane and later saw the bus service itself which is in Urban? livery with an orange strip down the side.

Probably worth knowing that there is also two 257's one goes from Brighouse to Elland and the other goes from Homfirth to Stocksbridge.

There are a fair few numbers duplicated within West Yorkshire as per your 257 example. It isn't a major issue if those routes don't meet, like the 257s or the 82s of which one is somewhere around Leeds and the other is Huddersfield to Denby Dale. If they do meet, like these 70s or Dewsbury's 205s, it's a problem. I can't even see the motivation for a company to want to use a number that's already in use, let alone the motivation for a traffic commissioner to allow it.

 

[Andyh82]

I doubt Transdev or the traffic commissioners have given it a second thought.

In Chester there are three 1s

 

[carlberry]

There are a fair few numbers duplicated within West Yorkshire as per your 257 example. It isn't a major issue if those routes don't meet, like the 257s or the 82s of which one is somewhere around Leeds and the other is Huddersfield to Denby Dale. If they do meet, like these 70s or Dewsbury's 205s, it's a problem. I can't even see the motivation for a company to want to use a number that's already in use, let alone the motivation for a traffic commissioner to allow it.

Without the number is something rude the traffic commissioner dosent have any control over it.
West Yorkshire is one of the few areas of the country where some common sense applies to the numbering system and there are very few duplicates.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Go North East "simplified" their route numbers by dropping the 7 off the front. So the 722 became the 22.

Helpfully this 22- which went out into County Durham- left from the same city centre stop as the city 22 service run by Stagecoach, both on a frequent 10-minute headway during the day. Only the 20 miles difference between destinations. Much hilarity ensued.

The Traffic Commissioner can't control what route number a service is given, you can call it the 897,456,202 if you want. Transdev won't have even considered that there might be another route in the city with the same number, they just want to "simplify" their branding. Hey ho.

 

[Andyh82]

Without the number is something rude the traffic commissioner dosent have any control over it.
West Yorkshire is one of the few areas of the country where some common sense applies to the numbering system and there are very few duplicates.

Indeed, and Transdev look to be ignoring this and going with low numbers.

In Tyne & Wear you can in theory have the same number 5 times, although I think there are no more than 4. All the three different Stagecoach networks all have small numbers starting at 1, and then Go North East and Arriva have their own network numbering.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Without the number is something rude the traffic commissioner dosent have any control over it.
West Yorkshire is one of the few areas of the country where some common sense applies to the numbering system and there are very few duplicates.

I wasn't sure if Traffic Commissioners would have any control over numbering, and I'm not surprised they don't.

However my point was that even though there's nothing preventing an operator using a clashing number, it makes no sense to choose a non-vacant number unless the route is also shared. If you were launching a soft drink that wasn't a cola, it would make no sense to call it Pepsi even if there were no laws preventing you from doing so.

 

[SCH117X]

I wasn't sure if Traffic Commissioners would have any control over numbering, and I'm not surprised they don't.

However my point was that even though there's nothing preventing an operator using a clashing number, it makes no sense to choose a non-vacant number unless the route is also shared. If you were launching a soft drink that wasn't a cola, it would make no sense to call it Pepsi even if there were no laws preventing you from doing so.

Sense and bus operators? In Harrogate Transdev reduced the frequency of its route 6 and cut back the route from a business park introducing a peak hour express service to the latter numbered X6. Then along came Connexions with two varients of the 6 numbered X6 and X6A, neither being an express service but numbered with a X to stand for Connexions (obviously). To add to the confusion their X6 does not serve the business park but the X6A does, albeit in an off-peak manner.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Indeed, and Transdev look to be ignoring this and going with low numbers.

In Tyne & Wear you can in theory have the same number 5 times, although I think there are no more than 4. All the three different Stagecoach networks all have small numbers starting at 1, and then Go North East and Arriva have their own network numbering.

A lot of operators have moved away from 3 digit numbers - customers find them easier to remember.

One of my mates worked for an operator who renumbered their services so that there was duplication of numbers in their network but not in each respective town (e.g. like the Stagecoach example). The ONLY complaints they had were from bus enthusiasts. The general public - not a murmur.

That said, there have been a raft of changes and renumberings in First West of England that defy logic - services in Bath renumbered from 13/14 to 3/4. Endless unnecessary tinkering does nothing for customers

 

[tbtc]

A lot of operators have moved away from 3 digit numbers - customers find them easier to remember.

One of my mates worked for an operator who renumbered their services so that there was duplication of numbers in their network but not in each respective town (e.g. like the Stagecoach example). The ONLY complaints they had were from bus enthusiasts. The general public - not a murmur

That sounds perfectly sensible.

For example, in South Yorkshire, we've seen the Rotherham/ Doncaster/ Barnsley services lose the leading digit of their three digit number to make things simpler for passengers (Sheffield services were generally two or three digit).

The only example I can think of where an operator has gone from simple single/double digit route numbers to a three digit number are the Rotherham "town services", where the closure of the local depot (Midland Road) has seen local services now operated by Sheffield (Olive Grove) or Doncaster (Ledger Way), so the Rotherham services have gone back to being numbered "1XX" (rather than "XX", which is what they became in the '90s) to avoid confusion with destination screens/ ticketing now that Sheffield/Doncaster buses now need to include Rotherham services (i.e. there's a 40/41 in Sheffield so the 39/40/41/42 in Rotherham are now the 139/140/141/142 like they were twentysomething years ago).

The other alternative is long distance routes seeing their leading digit replaced by an "X" (like the 278 from Sheffield to Doncaster becoming the X78) - it doesn't speed them up but it makes for a slightly easier more distinctive number that also highlights the longer distance nature of the service.

 

[Tetchytyke]

One of my mates worked for an operator who renumbered their services so that there was duplication of numbers in their network but not in each respective town (e.g. like the Stagecoach example). The ONLY complaints they had were from bus enthusiasts. The general public - not a murmur.

People don't care, they know the 17 in South Shields isn't the same as the 17 in Newcastle.

It's only really a problem when different routes have the same number and they go from similar stops. It was a regular occurrence for ENCTS pass holders (and occasionally Network One passholders) to get on the 22 to Throckley when they wanted the 22 to Gateshead, Chester-le-Street and Houghton-le-Spring. I'm sure it also happened in reverse. Both buses went from exactly the same stop in Newcastle city centre.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

People don't care, they know the 17 in South Shields isn't the same as the 17 in Newcastle.

It's only really a problem when different routes have the same number and they go from similar stops. It was a regular occurrence for ENCTS pass holders (and occasionally Network One passholders) to get on the 22 to Throckley when they wanted the 22 to Gateshead, Chester-le-Street and Houghton-le-Spring. I'm sure it also happened in reverse. Both buses went from exactly the same stop in Newcastle city centre.

Even then, you wonder how people who regularly catch a Go NE vehicle would clamber onto a Stagecoach bus!

The one that does stick in the mind was when First had two service 1s in Bristol both running through Colston Avenue (aka The Centre). The city service was to Cribbs Causeway via Clifton whereas the country version was a slower variant of the X1 to Weston super Mare. It was soon renumbered as W1.

First Cymru did renumber some of their routes in Port Talbot/Bridgend to remove duplication with Swansea routes - believe that was to make online searching for timetables easier.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Even then, you wonder how people who regularly catch a Go NE vehicle would clamber onto a Stagecoach bus!

Easily enough when Go NE were going through their phase of branding every single route differently

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Easily enough when Go NE were going through their phase of branding every single route differently

Surely the opposite would be true though? I can't recall the 22's branding but I'll draw a parallel with the 1. Would someone get on the Coaster with all its branding then wonder why they're heading to Gateshead not Slatyford or vice versa. Perhaps the case that the number is the brand in many respects?

That said, my home town had three different routes to the nearest town all about xx.20/xx.25. People would look only at the destination only to be told that they'd got on the one "the long way round" rather than the direct route. This is despite the direct number being unchanged since the 1930s

My personal view is that service numbers aren't sacred cows. Conversely, don't change and keep changing for pointless reasons for "tidiness". If it is a brand, protect it.

 

[Deerfold]

A lot of operators have moved away from 3 digit numbers - customers find them easier to remember.

Do they? I keep hearing this, but usually from operators, not passengers. And is it easier than remembering numbers that have been unchanged for 30 or 40 years?

Almost all the route numbers in Keighley have changed in the last couple of years. I used to know where they all went, but now have to try and remember what a route used to be (none of the routes have changed except the 762/62 becoming longer).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Do they? I keep hearing this, but usually from operators, not passengers. And is it easier than remembering numbers that have been unchanged for 30 or 40 years?

Almost all the route numbers in Keighley have changed in the last couple of years. I used to know where they all went, but now have to try and remember what a route used to be (none of the routes have changed except the 762/62 becoming longer).

Remember that prior to the late 1960s, most firms had lower and duplicated numbers. Before my time but I believe it was the first computer systems (that demanded individual service IDs) and so three figure service numbers became more prevalent.

Research has shown it though I don't know what the trade off is against familiarity of old numbers. My view FWIW is if there is a genuine reason for a change, or simply lopping a number off, then fair enough. For instance, my original home patch....

The Durham to Darlington service was the 722/3. It was re-routed in several parts in Newton Aycliffe and Durham with a single route and renumbered 7 - fair enough.

The Hurworth to Teesside Airport service was the 74 and renumbered to 12 - what benefit apart from satisfying someone's OCD?

 

[Stan Drews]

Do they? I keep hearing this, but usually from operators, not passengers. And is it easier than remembering numbers that have been unchanged for 30 or 40 years?

Almost all the route numbers in Keighley have changed in the last couple of years. I used to know where they all went, but now have to try and remember what a route used to be (none of the routes have changed except the 762/62 becoming longer).

You are probably correct, if operators are only looking to carry passengers that have been using the buses, or lived in the area, for those 30 or 40 years.
If, on the other hand, they are looking to attract new passengers and get some passenger growth... maybe simpler easier to remember numbers/brands may be a good idea.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

As with the First 70, its branded as City Bus South Bank. The Transdev 70/71 could, in some way, be seen as a brand as per its previous 770/771 incarnation.

At one point Compass Travel (Sussex) Ltd had two 123's, one was the Horley town service the other was an East Sussex County Council funded service that operated somewhere near Polegate.

 

[Deerfold]

You are probably correct, if operators are only looking to carry passengers that have been using the buses, or lived in the area, for those 30 or 40 years.
If, on the other hand, they are looking to attract new passengers and get some passenger growth... maybe simpler easier to remember numbers/brands may be a good idea.

I'm all for operators attracting new custom. But I'm not convinced irritating s good chunk of your current customers is a sensible byproduct. And if you're looking to attract new customers, I'm not sure reducing frequencies is a good thing to do at the same time.