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"First,Last and Worst Group"

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Woody

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The following is taken from part of a letter to the Times newspaper printed in the latest "Rail" mag.
"I propose a new nominee for the worlds worst company:First Group, that transport disaster that runs the trains between London and Bristol.What used to be quite a pleasant journey is now hellish:all the carriages on these lond distance services have been refitted to look like something between a charter aircraft and a tube train train,with migraine-inducing lights,a cold blue colour scheme and rows of uni-directional seats rammed so closely together you can barely sit down.Not so much a HST,mote DVT."
Have to agree with those sentiments as do most people I have spoken to about the matter,the lack of tables and luggage capacity for suitcases and of course those rediculously high backed seats have destroyed the travel experience for many longer distance passengers.
 
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devon_metro

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"nd rows of uni-directional seats rammed so closely together you can barely sit down"

Much more leg room that before.
 

me123

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Not fair to pick on First as a group: Scotrail are fantastic!
 

djw1981

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Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

The Transport Scotland funded Refurb's have done a lot to make 318, 156 & 158 fleets much nicer and more comfortable though. Not too sure what FSR have themselves done for the franchise, other than be a safe pair of hands. Most enhancements come from TS via franchise enhancements. The fleet in Scotland in generally much newer (thanks to electrification in 1980's, and 170 acquisition under NatEx).

The 158's are IMO not cut out for long distance work, but that is a national problem! I would rather that 158's were moved to medium distance work, and 170 to long distance routes. the issue is to do with door positioning and dwell times though. hence 158's end up on longer routes.

In the former SPT region, especially the Strathclyde electrics, the fleet is in fairly good nick, and the timetable fairly robust, so that any service cancellation is easily made up.
 

Woody

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"nd rows of uni-directional seats rammed so closely together you can barely sit down"

Much more leg room that before.
Agree the leg room is better,but that it,the refurb is though on the whole aimed at the shorter haul commuter market who travel light and bury their heads in newspapers or personal audio/visual gadgets.The longer haul passenger with luggage just have to grin and bare it or inceasingly from Devon/Cornwall at least drive or fly.
 

voyagerdude220

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I personally rate TPE , and their 185's very highly. As for their 170's, which I couldn't even bare on the sole trip i've had on one, between Hull and Leeds (supposed to be Manchester Picc), let's not go there! :neutral:

I must say however, that i've only ever travelled FC on TPE, so SC could be different..
 

Max

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I really dislike the 170s on Hull-Manchester to be honest. The seats now seem to be rock hard, and they are far too small for the route they serve. The only nice bit is the little compartment which used to be first class, its always nice and quiet in there (not many people venture in and its pretty much sound proofed from the rest of the train!).
 

91101

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It's publically very, very popular at the minute to rip FGW to bits, both amongst enthusiasts and in the general media, every journalist will jump on the bandwagon, and suddenly one train on a busy Saturday afternoon has become "Chaos and Bedlam as Commuters Sqauash on to Train" the media have an agenda in what they report, and their agenda with rail has always been a negative one.

I like First Group, I think they're quite proactive, and have done a lot of good throughout the country, from FGW to FSR, litterally from Wick to Penzance!

I also hasten to add that the article discussed above was in the Evening Standard, which we all know is a real bastion and torchlight of sound, unbiased reporting:roll::roll::roll:. What's more, the article in question, was written by that most well respected of journalists, who was never, ever sacked from the BBC for making things up: Andrew Gilligan. :roll::roll::roll: 'nuff said.
 

Woody

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I like First Group, I think they're quite proactive, and have done a lot of good throughout the country, from FGW to FSR, litterally from Wick to Penzance!

You would not say that if you had to put up with their the antics as we have to do in Devon /Cornwall.Delays,cancellations,overcrowding on FGW services have become a way of life in these parts.Only this week the Local BBC South West Tv news reported that a FGW manager had put out a written apology to Cornish commuters for late and cancelled trains. Commenting Moir Lockhead boss of First Group acknowleged to the BBC that there are major problems with the rail service here, many outside their control merely promising that First had the desire to sort it out.
For example arrived back in Plymouth about 6.30pm tonight to find the 1700 Plymouth/Paddington had been cancelled(second time this week),as had the 1845 Plymouth/Exeter and the 1906 arrival from Gunnislake.Its getting beyond a joke.
 

class 313

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Well its not like fGW are the only TOC to have their trains cancelled are they? Look at what was GNER or VWC, or even my very own Thameslink.
 

Tom C

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FCC are not bad

I am sorry Tom but I have to to wholeheartly disagree with that. Speaking for the former Thameslink side it really it a tail of two halfs and at this end we are in a far worse position than we ever were under Thameslink. So far the only thing that First have done is introduce ****e and Bachmann ticket machines which were a condition of the franchise so I refuse to credit them for that and despite this the ticket pick up facility still doesn't work. All the stations in the area from Elephant & Castle to West Sutton which are managed by FCC look no different to how they did under Thameslink, the stations from Haydons Road to West Sutton still have no customer information screens despite a high profile demonstration by FCC spouting on about what they were going to do which so far is nothing!, the train service is far worse than it ever was under Thameslink simply because the control points (which were manned by seasoned railwayman under Thameslink yet are now managed by a load of displaced management) do not use simple common sense and to cap it all the staffing levels have actually reduced and are set to reduce even further. The rest of the line isn't much better and to my utter astonishment FCC are now introducing NTSO (Not to stop orders) for Gatwick Airport and Luton Airport when trains are running as little as 10 minutes late which defies all logic.

Add to that a complete lack of support for the staff, a complete lack of communication and a complete disregard for peoples opinion despite the fact that the people giving these opinions are the ones who actually do the job and you have a sorry situation which will only get worse.
 

me123

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I have to disagree woth 318s being nicer djw, but I still fell that train services have improved since FSR came about. And I haven't experienced FCC, so can't comment on that front.
 

Metroland

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Some of the franchise’s problems are deep-rooted and out of FGW’s direct control. Haines points out that investment in new infrastructure on the Great Western route peaked in the late 1960s.

The rail and signalling installed then should have been replaced in the late 1990s � but instead Railtrack cut spending. It is only now, under Network Rail, that rail replacement is being increased.

On the Thames Valley routes into London, for example, FGW is responsible for only 28% of delays, with almost all the rest being the responsibility of Network Rail, which owns and operates the track and signalling. The age of the infrastructure leads to sudden and unexpected problems. “A fortnight ago Network Rail did an ultrasonic inspection of a one-mile section of track that showed eight faults that had to be fixed immediately. The result was that the line was closed in the morning,” said Haines.

First has held the franchise since British Rail was privatised in the late 1990s. Its first period in charge expired in 2005, but it retained the licence with an offer to pay the government £1 billion from the business over 10 years.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article3086644.ece
 

Dennis

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Wasn't GW a management buyout on privatisation with First subsequently acquiring this and then gaining the 'greater western' franchise which included the Wessex and former Thames Trains operations - the latter already won in a previous franchise bid from Go-Via?
 

scb201

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No Wessex and Thames Trains were seperate, but won later and absorbed into the Greater Western Franchise.

As someone who lived in Exeter for three years up until when First took over, the difference between First and Wessex seems to be units. In Wessex's case if a unit failed or a unit was late they had spares to replace it. Unfortunately due to the Dft and First (they can share the blame in my eyes) they have lost this flexibility.

Wessex did a great job building this franchise up to something almost describable as user friendly. It wasn't perfect by any stretch of the immagination, but they improved it and expanded the amount of seats, but the use also grew massively and they could just about cope. It wasn't pretty, it didn't have bells and whistles, and next to SWT it looked like a joke, but it worked, just about.

We need that type of management. Clinging onto some sort of normality. The staff were lovely, and always there to help, it can't have changed that much since I left can it?

Now I have Arriva Trains Wales to deal with. I would put them in the same bracket as Wessex, it works but not much more, and what more do you want... A-B transport at it's best (okyness)
 

paul1609

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Some of the franchise’s problems are deep-rooted and out of FGW’s direct control. Haines points out that investment in new infrastructure on the Great Western route peaked in the late 1960s.

The rail and signalling installed then should have been replaced in the late 1990s � but instead Railtrack cut spending. It is only now, under Network Rail, that rail replacement is being increased.

On the Thames Valley routes into London, for example, FGW is responsible for only 28% of delays, with almost all the rest being the responsibility of Network Rail, which owns and operates the track and signalling. The age of the infrastructure leads to sudden and unexpected problems. “A fortnight ago Network Rail did an ultrasonic inspection of a one-mile section of track that showed eight faults that had to be fixed immediately. The result was that the line was closed in the morning,” said Haines.

First has held the franchise since British Rail was privatised in the late 1990s. Its first period in charge expired in 2005, but it retained the licence with an offer to pay the government £1 billion from the business over 10 years.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article3086644.ece

I dont think thats necessarily accurate; network rail has been in charge for over 5 years now and it should be pulling the situation round. its undoubtably true that its spending a lot more money than Railtrack on infrastructure but it appears to me that in £ per mile of track or signalling its actually way less efficent than the private company. i reckon that in work on the ground if you exclude the major projects theres less renewal going on now than during railtrack days. I think that this is begining to show and its only a matter of time before a major mishap will result in another rethink. :(
 

class 313

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Why is this site so dedicated on blaming fGW when its not all their fault? Also, just cos franchising isn't working in the South West doesn't mean franchising is bad in general. From the looks of things when it was all BR stock was in a worse shape so you know. All his "hate fGW and get the government to get rid is a bit...
 

Woody

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Why is this site so dedicated on blaming fGW when its not all their fault? Also, just cos franchising isn't working in the South West doesn't mean franchising is bad in general. From the looks of things when it was all BR stock was in a worse shape so you know. All his "hate fGW and get the government to get rid is a bit...
Of course its not all FGWs fault but when they bid for the franchise they must of known the consequences of doing so,crap infrastructure,crap trains and the Dfts franchise financial straight-jacket could only mean one thing,problems,but they still took it on so they must except the consequences.Personally I dont think it would of mattered who won the franchise, ultimately it is a Dft/Government problem who have to decide how high a priority rail investment is and in the west it is clearly not a high priority at the moment with this government.
 

Metroland

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I dont think thats necessarily accurate; network rail has been in charge for over 5 years now and it should be pulling the situation round. its undoubtably true that its spending a lot more money than Railtrack on infrastructure but it appears to me that in £ per mile of track or signalling its actually way less efficent than the private company. i reckon that in work on the ground if you exclude the major projects theres less renewal going on now than during railtrack days. I think that this is begining to show and its only a matter of time before a major mishap will result in another rethink. :(

Well it’s all way less efficient than BR. Just ten years or so ago, a platform extension cost a few 1000s, these days it’s a lot more. Here are a few examples from the BR documents of the early 1990s, so prices adjusted for inflation shouldn’t be that much more:

Grantshouse/Innerwick TOWS £12,000 (that’s a lineside track warning system)
Removal of Cockenzie Headshunt £7,000
Haymarket Platform Extension £2,512
Earthing work in Relay rooms £2,000

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/BRB_ECMLCompletion1992.pdf

As a comparison recently some TOCs have spent millions and refurbishing booking halls with very little visible improvement…

Railtrack was known for not spending anything very much. The London area was of course paid for by BAA. Indeed, the track got so bad on the GWML that studies revealed that it was surprising that there wasn’t a derailment as some of the track alignment was very bad. What the situation is like now, I don’t know.

While true that the situation should be pulling itself round, the underlying problems are restrictive track layouts, 1960s signalling technology and track which is going to take serious work and investment to put right.

Interestingly I do wonder if modern signalling is cost effective. In 1883 Saxby and Farmer were paid £2,112 13s 7d to signal Lincoln area. Some of this equipment is still in use.

Using this site

http://www.measuringworth.com/calculators/ukcompare/

We can convert that to today’s money, which turns out to be between £146,000 and £2 million depending how it’s calculated. Let’s say £1 million.

NR has a Lincoln resignalling scheme (which admittedly includes track), which is going to cost £55 million to do away with the same area, so 55 times as much. Obviously you are going to save staff, let’s say 5 per year over 30 years, which represents a £4 million wage saving. And the new schemes will only last 30 years, compared to over 100 years (with some new post war semaphores) for the old scheme.

The wonders of modern technology eh?

Of course the real blame lays with the Tory government and the Labour Government for the privatised structure which is incredibly risk adverse, myopic and management heavy.

The DfT seems to be making a mess of most of what they touch. I was reading this morning, with the new cross country trains now not going through Birmingham in the same way, especially up the WCML, there has been a huge move to domestic flights since the timetable change.

In the late 1960s the Boeing 747 reduced costs for plane tickets, because it was a much larger craft meaning less staff were needed per passenger and was more fuel efficient. Meanwhile the railways have been moving the opposite direction with small 4 coach trains, with huge engines and weight to boot, spending millions on infrastructure to run more, when they could be adding extra coaches and filling the seats with yield management. And people wonder why costs are going up….
 

class 313

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Of course its not all FGWs fault but when they bid for the franchise they must of known the consequences of doing so,crap infrastructure,crap trains and the Dfts franchise financial straight-jacket could only mean one thing,problems,but they still took it on so they must except the consequences.Personally I dont think it would of mattered who won the franchise, ultimately it is a Dft/Government problem who have to decide how high a priority rail investment is and in the west it is clearly not a high priority at the moment with this government.

Good points, but say if it was one set TOC set for Devon. Then their trains wouldn't be stretched across the company as they would be dedicated to the line. Also, this could possibly of meant more trains for the south west to play with. So if one train does fail, it could be quickly replaced or started from somewhere else.
 
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