First Group Vandals!

[Peter Sarf]

Well I never did !.

I hate graffiti but now I think First group deserve to get a graffiti attack.

There I was on 319008 today when I noticed that Eddie Pond's murals on the ends of the coaches (inside) have had an 18 inch approx notice board/advert/map frame mounted on them. Wonder how long its taken me to notice. The artwork is from the mid 1980s (iirc) and features impressions of sights along the THAMESLINK route.

Worse still it is a Southern unit they have done it to !. Granted it belongs to Porterbrook (iirc) really. Which makes me wonder if they asked Porterbrook first. Did they ask first before trying to re-name City THAMESLINK station ?.

Well First Crap Connect we all know how overcrowded your off peak 4-coach services from Brighton are, that's why they are always late risk losing the path at London Bridge. So much for the boasts about 12-coach services !. You wont last much longer anyway so why bother. Looking forward to Southern's parent company getting TSGN - but then it is DAFT who decide.

That's the respect First get from me at the moment.

 

[43074]

So you just came on here to rant about how bad FCC are and a notice board across a mural.
How do you know it was FCC who stuck the notice board on the mural and not Southern?
What can anyone on here do about it?

 

[Class377/5]

Is he blaming City Thameslink name on Porterbrook?

Not to mention the ill informed rant over units. Not sure how a TOC is supposed to get more trains when the DfT had barred it while it orders them itself.

 

[asylumxl]

The murals were awful to begin with. I'd much rather see route information than see something that looks like a 5 year olds rendition of a day trip to London.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I personally liked the murals (although the best ones were the ones on the 442s), however it's not worth getting worked up over.

 

[F Great Eastern]

If you're moaning about rolling stock and not enough, we know.

You should ask the DFT why a tender they started in April 2008 took five years to close an order. Similar case with IEP etc. Not much the TOC can do, what stock they can get hold of they have done. A lot of the stock shortages in the UK are directly related to DFT dithering and constant delays in tenders and contract signing.

 

[thelem]

Those adverts were put up years ago, maybe 2008? Most of the unit have been repainted since in First colours, so the murals are gone anyway. A few (like the one you were on) missed their cosmetic changes, or were only half done.

 

[tsr]

I have seen many things inside a 319 (and indeed inside many other trains) which have been rather worse than a noticeboard covering up a few silhouettes of things you can see from a railway line.

The murals are OK, but I am not going to lose any sleep over them being covered by advert boards, much as I dislike the quality and mundane nature of the advertising materials. That said, it's a little bit of a pity the ads couldn't be more "in line" with the interior design of the train, as on some Tube stocks. But were 319s ever designed for them? Probably not really!

A much more pressing issue is the speed at which the presumably-forthcoming refurbishment projects for these trains can be carried out. Then the trains can look forward to a little more in the way of aesthetics, and the homes of the cascaded 319s can be more satisfied.

 

[90sWereBetter]

Wow, another FCC-bashing thread. Who'd have thought that was possible. :roll:

As others say, really something that you shouldn't get worked up about.

 

[jon0844]

I once saw a 'feet off the seats' sticker that wasn't straight on a FCC train.

My MP wasn't interested when I complained, so I'm looking for advice on how to take this further (to Europe)?

 

[starrymarkb]

I presume the OP will be complaining about SWT painting over the murals in the late 1990s on 442s and 159s (replaced by flowers and clouds)

Also with the City Thameslink incident - wasn't that down to Go-Ahead as it was the previous franchisee's responsibility remove their name from all the units before the hand over. I know Wessex used marker pens to cross out the Wessex name on the safety notices.

 

[swt_passenger]

Also with the City Thameslink incident - wasn't that down to Go-Ahead as it was the previous franchisee's responsibility remove their name from all the units before the hand over. I know Wessex used marker pens to cross out the Wessex name on the safety notices.

The thing was that 'Thameslink' in that context was part of the existing station name (from the route) as well as the name of the franchisee. It wasn't ever something that should have been deleted from posters etc. Whichever TOC's employees were tasked with removing references to the Thameslink franchise were either badly advised, or far too casual about their work.

 

[jon0844]

Are there any 317s still with these murals? I didn't hear about any protests, but assume they all lost them at various times depending on when they were refurbished.

There's nothing to say that a TOC couldn't do new designs, and have it running along the whole carriage end - with advertising boards positioned within. Could actually look quite nice, but that's up to them - not me or anyone here.

 

[317666]

Are there any 317s still with these murals?

I'm fairly sure there aren't, the /6s and /7s would have lost theirs by their 1999-2000 refurbishments, the /5s, /8s and /1s with FCC I'm less sure about when.

 

[Flamingo]

Just checked my "Give-A-Damn-O-Meter" (tm) and do you know what? Not a flicker!

 

[jon0844]

Yeah, I doubt many people are losing sleep over it.

 

[387star]

On one of those units the advertising board is placed over graffiti!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I once saw a 'feet off the seats' sticker that wasn't straight on a FCC train.

My MP wasn't interested when I complained, so I'm looking for advice on how to take this further (to Europe)?

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
ATW 150s have murals

 

[3141]

The thing was that 'Thameslink' in that context was part of the existing station name (from the route) as well as the name of the franchisee. It wasn't ever something that should have been deleted from posters etc. Whichever TOC's employees were tasked with removing references to the Thameslink franchise were either badly advised, or far too casual about their work.

The version of that incident that I heard was that staff of what had become FCC thought the word "Thameslink" should be replaced everywhere it appeared, and hadn't realised that in this case it was part of the station name and wasn't affected by the change of TOC.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Looks like I have been rather slow noticing the murals getting obscured . Probably sums up how much people noticed the murals anyway and how likely they are to notice any adverts.

Anyway it is likely the murals will be history if the new passengers for the 319s are lucky enough to get any kind of refurbishment. The murals would be out of context anyway so perhaps they would not be received very well in places such as Manchester !.

One of the frames on the coach end had an advert in it but the other frame had a route map for FCC routes (possibly not the KX route). Thing is route maps are, I think, usually placed nearer the doors on units (covering the windowless area where the door slides into). In this case there was a frame with an advert there so a map could go there. I still don't see the point in making the coach ends worse than they were (regardless of how much people love the murals or not). I looked around for a route map for more than just the FCC routes but there was none. A London connections map would be more use - why can we not have a more useful map ?. Otherwsie its hard for passengers who want to make connections to other routes. So I still think those frames are a pointless waste of an otherwise nicer surface.

I agree that DaFT have a lot to answer for. I remember hoping that privatisation would at least mean the railways could get on with it without government interference. However we still have government interference - I suppose because the government have to fork out so much money.

It does look like the frames appearance might be nothing to do with FCC. But whoever did it, in my view, showed no respect - just like graffitti.

As for the overcrowding on FirstCapitalConnect routes. If FCC have longer trains for the peaks (they boast of 12-cars) then why do they reduce these to four-cars in the off peak ?. When trying to use the service from East Croydon to StPancras the overcrowding has left me behind at East Croydon on more than one occaision. I change onto a slower train for Kentish Town which usually runs just behind my service originating from Brighton which is why I don't go to Victoria (though these are a lot easier to get on). I assume the overcrowding also explains the delays to the service (due to longer station dwell times). I am referring to the off peak departures between 09:32 and about midday - most of which I have tried as I endeavour to find the easiest train to board. The 09:32 is eight-car but the later services are only four-car in my experience.

Granted there are other parts of the UK that suffer overcrowding. For me the tube is worse (try Oxford Circus Victoria line Southbound in the evening peak). It is the experience of the battle to board off-peak FCC services at East Croydon that makes me biased against FCC.

 

[bb21]

why can we not have a more useful map ?

Is this supposed to be a rhetorical question?

If not, have you spoken to FCC about your suggestions?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Is this supposed to be a rhetorical question?

If not, have you spoken to FCC about your suggestions?

I should take it up with them in writing.

 

[bb21]

I actually think you may have a good point regarding this issue. Thameslink is an important part of an integrated transport system in London, so a map providing information for connections in London should ideally be available, as on Southern services for example.

 

[jon0844]

The version of that incident that I heard was that staff of what had become FCC thought the word "Thameslink" should be replaced everywhere it appeared, and hadn't realised that in this case it was part of the station name and wasn't affected by the change of TOC.

I have a photo somewhere of one of the route maps with Thameslink being struck out with marker pen, as seen on some 319s when FCC took over (removed by the previous franchise).

Very funny to see a route map saying 'City' and so on.

Don't know how anyone could think the stations would be renamed, but I guess the people did what they were told to do - remove the word Thameslink from the trains...

 

[tadhatter]

Just checked my "Give-A-Damn-O-Meter" (tm) and do you know what? Not a flicker!

But clearly bothered enough to comment on it!!!

 

[Class377/5]

Looks like I have been rather slow noticing the murals getting obscured . Probably sums up how much people noticed the murals anyway and how likely they are to notice any adverts.

Anyway it is likely the murals will be history if the new passengers for the 319s are lucky enough to get any kind of refurbishment. The murals would be out of context anyway so perhaps they would not be received very well in places such as Manchester !.

So in other words they should have been replace now anyway under original plans.

One of the frames on the coach end had an advert in it but the other frame had a route map for FCC routes (possibly not the KX route). Thing is route maps are, I think, usually placed nearer the doors on units (covering the windowless area where the door slides into). In this case there was a frame with an advert there so a map could go there. I still don't see the point in making the coach ends worse than they were (regardless of how much people love the murals or not). I looked around for a route map for more than just the FCC routes but there was none. A London connections map would be more use - why can we not have a more useful map ?. Otherwsie its hard for passengers who want to make connections to other routes. So I still think those frames are a pointless waste of an otherwise nicer surface.

The London Connections map got replaced in most units with a Southeastern map due to SE having the units and the agreement that they can use them in major disruption (such as heavy snow) for their services. All FCC maps have shown both Thameslink and GN lines.

I agree that DaFT have a lot to answer for. I remember hoping that privatisation would at least mean the railways could get on with it without government interference. However we still have government interference - I suppose because the government have to fork out so much money.

It does look like the frames appearance might be nothing to do with FCC. But whoever did it, in my view, showed no respect - just like graffitti.

Some people are in the opinion that the murals are graffitti so remember its only an opinion.

As for the overcrowding on FirstCapitalConnect routes. If FCC have longer trains for the peaks (they boast of 12-cars) then why do they reduce these to four-cars in the off peak ?. When trying to use the service from East Croydon to StPancras the overcrowding has left me behind at East Croydon on more than one occaision. I change onto a slower train for Kentish Town which usually runs just behind my service originating from Brighton which is why I don't go to Victoria (though these are a lot easier to get on). I assume the overcrowding also explains the delays to the service (due to longer station dwell times). I am referring to the off peak departures between 09:32 and about midday - most of which I have tried as I endeavour to find the easiest train to board. The 09:32 is eight-car but the later services are only four-car in my experience.

Granted there are other parts of the UK that suffer overcrowding. For me the tube is worse (try Oxford Circus Victoria line Southbound in the evening peak). It is the experience of the battle to board off-peak FCC services at East Croydon that makes me biased against FCC.

You seem to forget that there isn't a bottomless pit of units to get. The 12 car services are mainly enabled by use of 3x 377/2 to release three 377/5 to strengthen the most over crowded services. However the agreement is only to use the 377/2 for one return trip a day.

As for why they 'reduce' for off peak, well this simply isn't true as there is four cars in the peak too, there isn't the stock to do more. But how can you expect a TOC to length services while not being allowed to get any more stock in?

Of course there is less eight cars running around in the daytime but don't forget units require maintenance and can't be expected to run flat out all day long without breaking down most often. For example when 24tph are running, Thameslink daily miles are planed to be around 272,388 miles A DAY. Daily Bedford to Brighton all day can be nearer 800 miles, you can't expect units to do that every day without a lot of maintenance.

Note that FCC has got every 319 and a load of 377s to run the service but they only go so far with more 8 cars running around but more routes (Sevenoaks all day plus peak Kent services) require most of the units.

 

[Flamingo]

But clearly bothered enough to comment on it!!!

Just amazed that with all that there is to worry about in the world, the things some people chose to get worked up about...

 

[Peter Sarf]

Some people are in the opinion that the murals are graffitti so remember its only an opinion.

Of course there are those that view the First group livery as graffiti. But that does not justify scribbling over the livery. The murals may not be to everyones taste - I would prefer something better. BUT I think it says something that some one/corporation just slaps a frame over part of the murals. Replacing/removing the murals is one thing but just slapping ones own stuff over part of them is poor.

You seem to forget that there isn't a bottomless pit of units to get. The 12 car services are mainly enabled by use of 3x 377/2 to release three 377/5 to strengthen the most over crowded services. However the agreement is only to use the 377/2 for one return trip a day.

As for why they 'reduce' for off peak, well this simply isn't true as there is four cars in the peak too, there isn't the stock to do more. But how can you expect a TOC to length services while not being allowed to get any more stock in?

Of course there is less eight cars running around in the daytime but don't forget units require maintenance and can't be expected to run flat out all day long without breaking down most often. For example when 24tph are running, Thameslink daily miles are planed to be around 272,388 miles A DAY. Daily Bedford to Brighton all day can be nearer 800 miles, you can't expect units to do that every day without a lot of maintenance.

Note that FCC has got every 319 and a load of 377s to run the service but they only go so far with more 8 cars running around but more routes (Sevenoaks all day plus peak Kent services) require most of the units.

I understand that units need time out for maintenance. But given that FCC boast of 12-car peak services do they really need to reduce them to 4-car off peak giving them 2/3rds of the fleet to maintain in the off peak. Bit simplistic arithmetic I know. I suspect that many of the off-peak units will be sat in sidings doing nothing rather than being in a depot being maintained. So the only argument is that the units doing nothing are not clocking up wear and tear requiring more maintenance.

If the demand is there for trains/carriages then it should be met. After all passengers are paying for the service. This is a problem over most of the UK in the peak so lots of the same old complaints/arguments/justifications apply. But in the case of FCC they do seem to drastically reduce their capacity for the off peak. A solution to peak time overcrowding is for passengers to travel off peak as I do but FCC do not seem to agree with this. If I look at the Southern services they are nowhere near as overcrowded off peak. Regarding FCC I struggle to get in the coach off-peak but on Southern I am merely looking for a seat.

I do agree that FCC have been somewhat strangled by the DFT but surely this does not need to so drastically reduce capacity off peak.

 

[jon0844]

Of course there are those that view the First group livery as graffiti. But that does not justify scribbling over the livery. The murals may not be to everyones taste - I would prefer something better. BUT I think it says something that some one/corporation just slaps a frame over part of the murals. Replacing/removing the murals is one thing but just slapping ones own stuff over part of them is poor.

I expect that the murals should have been painted over, but it was too time consuming/expensive when there was simply a need to put up either a route map or advertising board. Most people probably aren't in the slightest bit bothered about it obscuring any artwork behind.

When I go to Old Street, I quite like seeing the old Network SouthEast branding, but most people probably don't give a damn. However, I doubt I'd be too bothered if all of the tiles were replaced, new signs put up, all-new lighting etc. I am sure most people would actually quite like that - and those that don't have photos and videos to look at.

 

[edwin_m]

Contractor is told "go and fix a poster holder to the panels shown on this sketch", but whoever drew the sketch was looking at a unit where the panels had already been painted over. Same reason, I believe, why some of the XC 170s have litter bins and others don't.

 

[jon0844]

Contractor is told "go and fix a poster holder to the panels shown on this sketch", but whoever drew the sketch was looking at a unit where the panels had already been painted over.

Nail on head I'm sure.