All the coach companies and most importantly FirstBus London weren’t included in that list. They have about 6,000 buses and coaches in total
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First Group: General Discussion
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YorkRailFan
Established Member
Most Kernow vehicles are being moved around within FirstGroup. The Citaros are moving over to Go Ahead for Truro Park & Ride but they were owned by Cornwall Council, not First.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
They'll replace other vehicles at other opcos so it's a reduction of 100+ vehicles, whilst Go Ahead are increasing by 70. Then there's Go Ahead getting the Merseyside Wirral work so they are definitely closing that gap!
mattb7tl
Member
"Thirdbus" is guaranteed. Franchising is going to be a great reset in market share as it means the return of competition. First is yet to show any signs of being competitive.
Go-Ahead is also strongly targeting West Yorkshire (First dominated region with a market share of 72.5%). They moved into the region far after the announcement for franchising and have since picked up any tenders they could grab with branded brand new vehicles while saving cut commercial services. First on the other keep self sabotaging and do not appear to have a great relationship with the authority.
The Go Ahead website states they run "7000 buses"
Stagecoach say they have "8400 buses"
Stagecoach Group | Corporate
We are a leading quality public transport provider in the UK. More than 3 million customers a day trust our greener, smarter and better value bus and rail services - and we are continuing to grow.
www.stagecoachbus.com
So they are already way ahead of First who run, by my counts, 6000 buses
By my calculations its around 4000 buses outside London, 1000 in London and around 1000 in SPS/Aircoach/Ensign/Coach companies
Considering they've only fairly recently bought RATP Dev Transit London, First must have been the third biggest for many years, this time last year they perhaps had less than 5000 buses
Therefore the closure of Kernow with 93 buses is trivial in the grand scheme of things
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TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
The 7000 is global?The Go Ahead website states they run "7000 buses"
Stagecoach say they have "8400 buses"
Stagecoach Group | Corporate
We are a leading quality public transport provider in the UK. More than 3 million customers a day trust our greener, smarter and better value bus and rail services - and we are continuing to grow.
So they are already way ahead of First who run, by my counts, 6000 buses
By my calculations its around 4000 buses outside London, 1000 in London and around 1000 in SPS/Aircoach/Ensign/Coach companies
Considering they've only fairly recently bought RATP Dev Transit London, First must have been the third biggest for many years, this time last year they perhaps had less than 5000 buses
Therefore the closure of Kernow with 93 buses is trivial in the grand scheme of things
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Correct - they’ve not been competitive in GM or Merseyside though they did at least win a small franchise. Go Ahead are targeting WY without a doubt and are probably getting some knowledge of the local market and cost base etc.
The current relationship counts for nothing in public procurement though, good or bad.
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What’s funny is people are excited hoping that First lose West Yorkshire to Go Ahead. Whereas in any north east thread or forum, people hope Go Ahead get ousted.
It’s almost as if people don’t like the operator they catch in rush hour traffic at 8am in the morning in the cold and wet, but do like the operator they see online or catch on a summer leisure day out!
It’s almost as if people don’t like the operator they catch in rush hour traffic at 8am in the morning in the cold and wet, but do like the operator they see online or catch on a summer leisure day out!
mattb7tl
Member
It seems strange that they would seemingly rather making nothing. I think from early indications the region is going to be intensely competitive which is a win the passenger but a concern for the company.
FWY is a weak operation day to day (surveys reflect this). I’m not buying the "we cannot control satisfaction" narrative the poor operators lean on. They absolutely can. I have been to places with some of the highest satisfaction scores in the country and sure buses still run late and get cancelled but that is reality. The difference is the attitude and the follow through they do not act like victims of circumstances, they focus on what they can control and actually improve it, service provision, presentation, comms, and the passenger experience.
GNE is also a poor operation the difference is the fact that the rest of the company has a disproportionate amount of examples with high levels of satisfaction and usage.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
As with Arriva in Merseyside and Stagecoach in GM, First has a dominant position in West Yorkshire and they really can only be poorer in terms of size and financially by the end of the process. Why GA and Stagey have been more successful in GM and Merseyside, not certain we know.
All companies have shareholders, and they demand minimum financial returns. We see in London that there's little difference in profit margins - no one is making a killing (far from it).
cactustwirly
Established Member
Each bus company has good and bad
Compare Morebus with Carousel for example, or Huddersfield with Norwich I'd imagine there are big differences
sytransport
Member
Completely agree with this. The true reality for First is those who are bidding for the work know next to nothing about buses, evidenced by the lack wins - a full team of fresh graduates with approximately 8 bodies writing the bids alone (too many cooks comes to mind). I feel sorry for those in jobs threatened by franchising, there’s little they can do but sit and watch the ship sink as other operators show First how it’s done again.
West Yorkshire is the next test, any losses this time will surely raise questions about the competency of those involved in the bids and those leading the team…
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Always the case. Changing operator isn’t going to magically resolve the problem, it just shifts it onto the new operator.
No other operator has really touched West Yorkshire apart from First and Arriva, yet the public don’t see it like that.
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I don’t know why it’s assumed that the incumbent should win the franchising bids
Look at Stagecoach, who won loads of work in Manchester where they didn’t used to run, but then lost the vast majority of work where they did used to run.
West Yorkshire might just end up in a merry go round like Manchester was. So we’ll see Arriva running Keighley and First running Castleford!
Look at Stagecoach, who won loads of work in Manchester where they didn’t used to run, but then lost the vast majority of work where they did used to run.
West Yorkshire might just end up in a merry go round like Manchester was. So we’ll see Arriva running Keighley and First running Castleford!
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
I don't know if that's the assumption.
The reality is that these bids go through proscribed public procurement processes. There's no allowance given for existing relationships, good or bad - just the assessment of the technical and commercial responses.
Stagecoach and Go Ahead have clearly proved adept at winning franchises. Perhaps their margins are a smidge lower, their technical responses a shade better? Who knows? As I mentioned, London shows that margins are much of a muchness generally.
As for your comment on people rooting for Go Ahead rather than First... The greater irony has been the outcry on the demise of First Kernow, being supplanted by Go Ahead. However, the fact is that people always complain about a current and imperfect reality vs. the attraction of sunlit uplands of a new world. In some cases, 52% of people can even vote for it
dodecahedron67
Member
Hunslet, York Pullman, Potteries are the three for the North/Midlands, although I believe Bus & Coach at Blackburn have been used on occasion?
Not owned by First but Kernow for a while used a paintshop at Bodmin and Qualiti Conversions & Repairs Ltd at Botley.
Leyland Bus
Member
I didn't realise Meridian was part of the sale to FirstBus? Also surprising if First were able to shoehorn anything in there, their books were chockerblock to the point of turning folk away when I was there
robert west
Member
- Joined
- 4 Apr 2013
- Messages
- 270
Marsdens have done first Essex buses in the pastI didn't realise Meridian was part of the sale to FirstBus? Also surprising if First were able to shoehorn anything in there, their books were chockerblock to the point of turning folk away when I was there
dodecahedron67
Member
I’m unsure if Meridian was part of the sale or not (I really should know given I became a float person between FY & YP!), but I know for definite they’ve repainted a couple of buses for First (namely the B7RLEs and B8RLEs at Pullman) since Pullman got bought out. Whether that’s because First now own them or because they now use them on a contractor basis I don’t knowI didn't realise Meridian was part of the sale to FirstBus? Also surprising if First were able to shoehorn anything in there, their books were chockerblock to the point of turning folk away when I was there
First in Solent used to use Qualiti but I don't think Qualiti exist any more.
Pyromaniac
Member
Mardens in Benfleet do a lot of First repaints for the East of England, and a very professional job they do too with full decal applications too. 33318 ex-Kernow is currently in their shops being repainted into plain black for the Chelmsford P&R which First are running from next month.
Mardens ironically also had work recently doing single door conversions of older ex-TfL stock for...Go Cornwall. Likewise some Brighton & Hove repaints are done here, must be good for a journey of that distance.
There is a other 3rd party First use around here for accident repairs who I forget the name of. They do Ultraviolet repaints but not decal applications.
Finally SAGA Truck & Van in Witham are used for major mechanical works. 47665 has been there since November 2025 having been off the road since July 2025. SAGA Truck & Van also see frequent visits from the Stansted Airport car park shuttle Citatos as a fun aside.
Mardens ironically also had work recently doing single door conversions of older ex-TfL stock for...Go Cornwall. Likewise some Brighton & Hove repaints are done here, must be good for a journey of that distance.
There is a other 3rd party First use around here for accident repairs who I forget the name of. They do Ultraviolet repaints but not decal applications.
Finally SAGA Truck & Van in Witham are used for major mechanical works. 47665 has been there since November 2025 having been off the road since July 2025. SAGA Truck & Van also see frequent visits from the Stansted Airport car park shuttle Citatos as a fun aside.
Pyromaniac
Member
Bingo @JamesC357 it is TVS, thank you I had a mind blank.
Whiteway215
Established Member
Bristol Hengrove depot has a paintshop.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
First West of England used Press down at Avonmouth for many years (and if you Streetview it, there's a few First vehicles visible since 2008). That said, I thought they'd ceased using them but June 2025 has a Bath City liveried e400 parked up there for some reason.
jeffery9098
On Moderation
With GM, You can see that SC + GA are keen on helping the authority achieving 'zero-emission' fleet by providing them with vehicles (moments later brought by the authority). With Merseyside, It wouldn't be shocking if they've used the experience with bee network to help them gain the contracts in Merseyside.
317 forever
Established Member
Indeed, I even rode their route 571 last March.
As Go-Ahead have expanded and grown in London, had initial success in Manchester and won an initial operation in Merseyside, their expansion in West Yorkshire looks all but guaranteed.
Why is it that when you retrieve your journey/transaction history on the Littlepay portal for First Bus, it's only for the card you submitted? Verifying a physical card on other operators' portals also generates histories for associated virtual cards, but on First Bus' I have to select the Google Pay option which is only accessible on Android phones.
On a separate matter I had one preauth for two First Berkshire TOTO journeys the other day which isn't an issue, but it differs from the typical non-TfL Ticketer-equipped approach of generating a preauth for each individual journey on a given day.
On a separate matter I had one preauth for two First Berkshire TOTO journeys the other day which isn't an issue, but it differs from the typical non-TfL Ticketer-equipped approach of generating a preauth for each individual journey on a given day.