First Group: General Discussion

[Metal Mickey]

That's far nicer! Why didn't they just do that??

Agreed. It’s a much nicer livery than the bland new corporate one.

 

[Andyh82]

Agreed. It’s a much nicer livery than the bland new corporate one.

I disagree. It’s nice that there is still some freedom to do a special livery

However I wouldn’t use this scheme nationwide, Take all the branding off it, and I’d say two tone blue is blander than the bold purple and grey scheme

 

[Leyland Bus]

Probably because the view was that they were spending too much on repaints and it prompted a return to a national scheme. However, where it makes sense (and tourist services are the obvious one), then they should have a little more freedom.

I don't mind the purple and grey, and whilst I'll miss some of the First liveries, it was getting a bit silly in some places (e.g. Cornwall, Bristol)

Yeah I get that (I worked through both the "good times" and bad times at First) so instead they spend the money carting buses from seemingly all around the country to places like Adderley Green to be painted instead

In the grand scheme of things, in house repaints are a drop in the ocean but First tried to be clever and almost eradicated all their painters before someone realised there would be no one left and commercial repaints were far costlier... but hey ho!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yeah I get that (I worked through both the "good times" and bad times at First) so instead they spend the money carting buses from seemingly all around the country to places like Adderley Green to be painted instead

In the grand scheme of things, in house repaints are a drop in the ocean but First tried to be clever and almost eradicated all their painters before someone realised there would be no one left and commercial repaints were far costlier... but hey ho!

The use of internal/external paintshops is another subject.

In my corner of First, we had 12 separate standard liveries for standard routes (not including ones for special services and contracts) so some rationalisation was overdue.

Agreed. It’s a much nicer livery than the bland new corporate one.

It's a subjective view, but they probably wouldn't go for a light blue because of the clashes with Arriva.

 

[dgl]

They could at least have the "region" as they did with the previous national livery, it's a way to get a bit of localisation back that's easy to change as necessary if it's just vinyls.

 

[scosutsut]

It pains me to say it but I think the new First Corporate livery is easily the best one they've ever had and the best of all the big groups current schemes.

Allowing limited but logical adaptations of it as shown here only improves my liking of it.

 

[Leyland Bus]

It pains me to say it but I think the new First Corporate livery is easily the best one they've ever had and the best of all the big groups current schemes.

Allowing limited but logical adaptations of it as shown here only improves my liking of it.

Let's be honest, it's an extremely low bar especially where Stagecoach and Arriva are concerned...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 May 2025 ==

The use of internal/external paintshops is another subject.

In my corner of First, we had 12 separate standard liveries for standard routes (not including ones for special services and contracts) so some rationalisation was overdue.


It's a subjective view, but they probably wouldn't go for a light blue because of the clashes with Arriva.

12 is way too many liveries for one fleet, you'd have thought Overground branding would have taught them that...

 

[scosutsut]

Let's be honest, it's an extremely low bar especially where Stagecoach and Arriva are concerned...

I can't dispute the accuracy of that statement

 

[fgwrich]

That's far nicer! Why didn't they just do that??

This is a good example to show that adaptations/branding on the new livery template can still work!

Norwich Sightseeing

Norwich Sightseer Revealed

Following our report that the Norwich Sightseer open top service is to begin this Saturday 24th May ( Norwich Sightseer - 16th May 2025 ), Z...

eastnorfolkbus.blogspot.com

This is where I find the new era First Bus somewhat confusing. Areas such as Dorset and Cornwall have their localised liveries and Open Toppers swept away to be replaced with Ultravoilet, yet Norwich gets a localised scheme based upon the new template, and Solent has vehicles repainted into the Solent livery despite the new design template in use elsewhere.

Feel the power: Solent from First Bus introduces converted electric buses | First Bus UK News

Solent from First Bus has introduced four newly converted electric buses into service in Portsmouth, Fareham and Gosport The ‘repowered’ diesel vehicles have been fully refurbished to a near-new standard and converted to electric power, delivering more environmentally friendly travel for...

news.firstbus.co.uk

On a side note, I agree @Leyland Bus - Stagecoach have shown off a similar example with two repainted Park and Ride E200s for Winchester Park & Ride. If only that had been used as a national template.

Stagecoach South 26047 - SN16 OPA

Stagecoach South 26047 - SN16 OPA seen on the Broadway today sporting its new livery for Winchester Park and Ride just waiting on its decals to be applied.

www.flickr.com

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

This is where I find the new era First Bus somewhat confusing. Areas such as Dorset and Cornwall have their localised liveries and Open Toppers swept away to be replaced with Ultravoilet, yet Norwich gets a localised scheme based upon the new template, and Solent has vehicles repainted into the Solent livery despite the new design template in use elsewhere.

Solent is an anomaly (same as Leicester) where the colour is part of the local Quality Partnership. Bristol and West is also green as an informal agreement (?) to have WEST branding. So other than that, and Bee Network, contract liveries, etc, it’s ultraviolet.

This Norwich one is a bit of a surprise though it was mooted that there might be an open topper/tourist scheme in selected places.

 

[Goldfish62]

I was in Weymouth the other day, watching the start of the demise of the Jurassic Coaster, an incredibly strong and long-lasting local brand with a very attractive livery.

Although repaints are very slow, timetable posters have started to be replaced with the bland corporate version and it was confirmed by one of the staff that a timetable book is no longer being produced, despite demand from tourists for one.

I find all this hard to understand.

 

[jcrwey]

It appears Weymouth's (ex-Kernow) 37736 has been painted into a very similar two tone blue. The new leaflet mentions the 'Explore Dorset' brand name. The Explore word in the same green banner as the Norwich wording on the other example.

Services 11 (formerly Portland Coaster), X52 (Weymouth to Bridport), X50 (Weymouth to Swanage - 6 week summer holidays only) and 55 all feature under the Explore Dorset brand name. All are open top routes.

 

[Andyh82]

This timetable for the Exmoor Explorer also uses a similar “Explore Exmoor” logo, with the same green banner

https://www.firstbus.co.uk/sites/default/files/public/node_images/somerset%20network%20tt%20web%20mar25%20explore%20exmoor.pdf

 

[Goldfish62]

This timetable for the Exmoor Explorer also uses a similar “Explore Exmoor” logo, with the same green banner

https://www.firstbus.co.uk/sites/default/files/public/node_images/somerset%20network%20tt%20web%20mar25%20explore%20exmoor.pdf

Looking at that timetable it can't seem to make up its mind whether it's called Exmoor Explorer or Explore Exmoor!

 

[Great_Western]

Fundimientaly, I think the arguments in favour of heavy route branding and localised liveries are overblown. The ultimate driver that makes people switch on to public transport is not the colour of the bus, or a strong brand, but other factors such as speed, frequency (including services running very early 'till very late), reliability and social exceptance.

First Group moving to a unified brand will ultimately make fleets look tidier and more uniform which you could argue will do more for passenger numbers than individual (or grouped) route branding.

Look at the Bristol operation right now as an example, the fleet is awash with liveries from as far away as Essex and Leeds. With route branding, that will happen whenever a bus needs to be transferred within a group. That cannot be a good thing.

IMO something needed to be done about the state of First's fleet and the rollout of this national livery will be a net positive if done properly.

 

[stevenedin]

Fundimientaly, I think the arguments in favour of heavy route branding and localised liveries are overblown. The ultimate driver that makes people switch on to public transport is not the colour of the bus, or a strong brand, but other factors such as speed, frequency (including services running very early 'till very late), reliability and social exceptance.

First Group moving to a unified brand will ultimately make fleets look tidier and more uniform which you could argue will do more for passenger numbers than individual (or grouped) route branding.

Look at the Bristol operation right now as an example, the fleet is awash with liveries from as far away as Essex and Leeds. With route branding, that will happen whenever a bus needs to be transferred within a group. That cannot be a good thing.

IMO something needed to be done about the state of First's fleet and the rollout of this national livery will be a net positive if done properly.

I agree. Route branding can be done if it is just a vinyl over the bus if it really is required otherwise it is better to have a uniform livery especially in a company as big as First.

 

[Sealink]

Down here in Dorset, First Group have decided not to publish a summer timetable booklet like they have for years and years.

Instead they have offered people a QR Code, failing to recognise that people who want timetables don't necessarily want or cannot use QR codes.

In Bridport a local gentleman has printed timetables for the X51 / X52 / X53 at his own expense. This is a two sided A3 document that folds into A5 size.
I am really surprised that companies like First do not understand that a timetable is a really good advertisement, and people like them!
First printed a superb full colour timetable - which wasn't necessary either - just a clear black and white edition would have been fine - and it doesn't help that their website is full of errors.
Additionally, to download the timetable for their site is 19 pages. (Their website also shows a forthcoming change on 2 June - a further 17 pages of PDF.) Oh and if you want today and tomorrow, another 10 or so pages.

This is madness.

 

[Nammer]

I don't mind what colour livery a bus is in. Even fleets with a standard livery can have many buses in advert liveries! I want a regular, reliable, not too expensive service that shows up, with a friendly driver. I like a bus to look tidy on the outside and inside. Too many First buses have tatty seats and dusty, sticky floors as if they are uncared for. The inside of the bus is more important to the passenger onboard.

 

[overthewater]

To be fair to first who have also given up printing any timetables in Scotland a growing number of other companies don't bother either, Lothian don't print anything for city routes in Edinburgh bar a route map. However if there were places that did need to have timetables surly it would be tourist hotspot like Dorset etc?

 

[Andyh82]

This sounds like a retrograde step

In Weymouth there used to be a member of staff (in a straw hat) who would field all kinds of questions from outside a cabin on the front

Not ‘what time is the next bog standard bus to a bog standard suburb’ but ‘when are the buses to Portland, how often do they run, how long do they take, when do they come back, what times are they in two days time, or on Sunday…’

Assuming he hasn’t been made redundant he’ll have fun answering all that without any paper to hand out

 

[Goldfish62]

This sounds like a retrograde step

In Weymouth there used to be a member of staff (in a straw hat) who would field all kinds of questions from outside a cabin on the front

Not ‘what time is the next bog standard bus to a bog standard suburb’ but ‘when are the buses to Portland, how often do they run, how long do they take, when do they come back, what times are they in two days time, or on Sunday…’

Assuming he hasn’t been made redundant he’ll have fun answering all that without any paper to hand out

He's still there, and yes, people have been asking him for timetable books.

 

[fgwrich]

I was in Weymouth the other day, watching the start of the demise of the Jurassic Coaster, an incredibly strong and long-lasting local brand with a very attractive livery.

Although repaints are very slow, timetable posters have started to be replaced with the bland corporate version and it was confirmed by one of the staff that a timetable book is no longer being produced, despite demand from tourists for one.

I find all this hard to understand.

Very much likewise. Jurassic Coaster was a very smart, long running and recognisable brand and connected the routes running largely west of Weymouth to Axminster with the places that they serve, very much all upon the JC. One of First’s better efforts at route branding over the years.

It appears Weymouth's (ex-Kernow) 37736 has been painted into a very similar two tone blue. The new leaflet mentions the 'Explore Dorset' brand name. The Explore word in the same green banner as the Norwich wording on the other example.

Services 11 (formerly Portland Coaster), X52 (Weymouth to Bridport), X50 (Weymouth to Swanage - 6 week summer holidays only) and 55 all feature under the Explore Dorset brand name. All are open top routes.

So First can do open tops then. But why, with Open Tops remaining in Dorset, Exmoor and now Norwich, couldn’t Kernow at least retain one open top route? Rather than drastically loosing all of them.

Down here in Dorset, First Group have decided not to publish a summer timetable booklet like they have for years and years.

Instead they have offered people a QR Code, failing to recognise that people who want timetables don't necessarily want or cannot use QR codes.

In Bridport a local gentleman has printed timetables for the X51 / X52 / X53 at his own expense. This is a two sided A3 document that folds into A5 size.
I am really surprised that companies like First do not understand that a timetable is a really good advertisement, and people like them!
First printed a superb full colour timetable - which wasn't necessary either - just a clear black and white edition would have been fine - and it doesn't help that their website is full of errors.
Additionally, to download the timetable for their site is 19 pages. (Their website also shows a forthcoming change on 2 June - a further 17 pages of PDF.) Oh and if you want today and tomorrow, another 10 or so pages.

This is madness.

And yet, just a little further along. More put out a post yesterday which seemed to be particularly popular with timetable booklets. While I do get some of the logic of drifting away from paper timetables, there is still a reason for producing them. And, if you don’t, at least make an effort in producing quality easy to understand timetables either online or in the bus stops. Not the cheap rubbish First seems to be putting out at the moment.

(Image is of Morebus’s latest timetable booklets for the Bournemouth / Poole areas)

 

[Goldfish62]

Very much likewise. Jurassic Coaster was a very smart, long running and recognisable brand and connected the routes running largely west of Weymouth to Axminster with the places that they serve, very much all upon the JC. One of First’s better efforts at route branding over the years.



So First can do open tops then. But why, with Open Tops remaining in Dorset, Exmoor and now Norwich, couldn’t Kernow at least retain one open top route? Rather than drastically loosing all of them.


And yet, just a little further along. More put out a post yesterday which seemed to be particularly popular with timetable booklets. While I do get some of the logic of drifting away from paper timetables, there is still a reason for producing them. And, if you don’t, at least make an effort in producing quality easy to understand timetables either online or in the bus stops. Not the cheap rubbish First seems to be putting out at the moment.

(Image is of Morebus’s latest timetable booklets for the Bournemouth / Poole areas)

Morebus also do an excellent summer Breezers booklet. Seems an obvious thing to do in a high tourist area.

 

[cactustwirly]

Fundimientaly, I think the arguments in favour of heavy route branding and localised liveries are overblown. The ultimate driver that makes people switch on to public transport is not the colour of the bus, or a strong brand, but other factors such as speed, frequency (including services running very early 'till very late), reliability and social exceptance.

First Group moving to a unified brand will ultimately make fleets look tidier and more uniform which you could argue will do more for passenger numbers than individual (or grouped) route branding.

Look at the Bristol operation right now as an example, the fleet is awash with liveries from as far away as Essex and Leeds. With route branding, that will happen whenever a bus needs to be transferred within a group. That cannot be a good thing.

IMO something needed to be done about the state of First's fleet and the rollout of this national livery will be a net positive if done properly.

If you look at Reading the different route branding works
Ie I know that my bus is yellow so I go to the bus stop with yellow flags and get on the yellow bus.
However they have a large pool of spares to make it work

The app, reliability, fare price and specifications are important too.
Ie is it cheaper than parking in the Town Centre for an few hours, can I get a bus when I want and is it going to be clean and comfortable?

 

[wiltshirebloke]

It's been a couple of weeks now since First withdrew from Social Media, which was a handy outlet for local control centres to issue current service issues etc.

The First website has always been useless pretty much in conveying such information, which some OpCos using their websites quite actively, and some not touching them at all.

I believe the pay-off at the time was to consult the First App for an alternative source of information. From what I can see nothing has actually been put into place to convey such information, except using the real-time bus tracking feature.

The Bristol, Bath & West website now appears to feature a 'Daily Service Update' which appears from the 'Travel Alert' ticker at the top of the page. This update features a table of all services operated, with notes provided about alterations. This is all well and good, until you see that the ticker launches in a 'pop-up' page which cannot be expanded or scrolled left to right, so half of the information on the right side of the table is unreadable. It's even worse to try and read this page on a mobile. At the moment, this doesn't appear to feature on any other regional website.

It's a pretty poor show from such a corporate entity for such a lack of real time information, let alone that some smaller bus companies using the 'passenger' website even proudly feature such information clearly on the timetables for each route - again something the First website lacks.

 

[Metal Mickey]

It's a pretty poor show from such a corporate entity for such a lack of real time information, let alone that some smaller bus companies using the 'passenger' website even proudly feature such information clearly on the timetables for each route - again something the First website lacks.

What do you mean by Passenger website?

 

[-Colly405-]

The Bristol, Bath & West website now appears to feature a 'Daily Service Update' which appears from the 'Travel Alert' ticker at the top of the page. This update features a table of all services operated, with notes provided about alterations. This is all well and good, until you see that the ticker launches in a 'pop-up' page which cannot be expanded or scrolled left to right, so half of the information on the right side of the table is unreadable. It's even worse to try and read this page on a mobile.

View attachment 180901

That Daily Service Updates page scrolls left/right and up/down just fine on mobile for me (Chrome on Android). A helpful page ..

 

[DavidK]

What do you mean by Passenger website?

Go Ahead companies and others like McGills use passenger for their websites and apps

Passenger

Making shared transport the first choice

passenger.tech

 

[Stan Drews]

Go Ahead companies and others like McGills use passenger for their websites and apps

Passenger

Making shared transport the first choice

passenger.tech

Passenger are largely considered to provide the best apps across the bus industry. They aren’t the cheapest, but it’s often a classic example of you get what you pay for those that choose other suppliers.

 

[Sealink]

Down here in Dorset, First Group have decided not to publish a summer timetable booklet like they have for years and years.

Instead they have offered people a QR Code, failing to recognise that people who want timetables don't necessarily want or cannot use QR codes.

In Bridport a local gentleman has printed timetables for the X51 / X52 / X53 at his own expense. This is a two sided A3 document that folds into A5 size.
I am really surprised that companies like First do not understand that a timetable is a really good advertisement, and people like them!
First printed a superb full colour timetable - which wasn't necessary either - just a clear black and white edition would have been fine - and it doesn't help that their website is full of errors.
Additionally, to download the timetable for their site is 19 pages. (Their website also shows a forthcoming change on 2 June - a further 17 pages of PDF.) Oh and if you want today and tomorrow, another 10 or so pages.

This is madness.

Not sure if I am posting this correctly - I am told to put text in quotes and link for URL.

I have taken the opportunity to update the local website for Bridport and West Bay.
Let me know if I have missed anything. (I still the "combined" page has far too much text and may be daunting to someone who isn't sure about using public transport.)

Bridport Public Transport Hub