First Group: General Discussion

[Andyh82]

So if I have understood correctly, apart from Glasgow, Worcester & Halifax, the 'Urban' livery will be extinct in the near Future?
Seems strange why that those 3 places haven't gone for new colour schemes.

Norwich uses ‘urban’

Halifax however uses Olympia, albeit slightly revised at the back. There are no coloured fronts

 

[volvob12]

Greater Manchester have been repainting into Glasgow style Urban as well.

 

[mic]

Greater Manchester have been repainting into Glasgow style Urban as well.

only 33698 33745 33856 and 37383 in Urban livery at Oldham so far

 

[Jordan Adam]

So if I have understood correctly, apart from Glasgow, Worcester & Halifax, the 'Urban' livery will be extinct in the near Future?
Seems strange why that those 3 places haven't gone for new colour schemes.

Olympia is the 2012 livery, Urban is the simplified livery brought in a number of years later which most opcos now use a variant of.

I think the majority of the local liveries are still urban pattern, it's just which colours they have changed?

I believe it's the template design that's known as Urban rather than anything colour specific.

Some (Aberdeen) are subtle changes to one colour and others (Leeds, Sheffield, Southampton) changed them all, just retaining the pattern?

The front colour is different too, Aberdeen Urban uses the same off white colour used on Barbie rather than the lilac off white used on standard/Glasgow Urban.

 

[Andyh82]

What livery do Bristol paint general non branded buses in these days?

 

[volvob12]

What livery do Bristol paint general non branded buses in these days?

Urban with the lilac front third, believe it was introduced here in 2015? It’s few and far between here though.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

What livery do Bristol paint general non branded buses in these days?

As @volvob12 states. they adopted a lilac front as per this photo from @iantherev https://www.flickr.com/photos/iantherev/52470366789/in/photolist-2nWCm1n-2nTcF5w

This was one vehicle employed on Park and Ride and then surplus after frequency cuts. There's been a few over the years but not many that have gained this livery though surprisingly, two of the new gas buses were delivered in it.

James Freeman was busy introducing the Citylines concept before he left, but that seems to have stalled. A few B9s were repainted in the blue version for 75/76 under the new regime but in truth, not much has been repainted in Bristol or elsewhere.

 

[GusB]

I've moved the most recent posts regarding Aircoach to a separate thread. Please keep this one for discussion issues pertaining to First Bus as a whole. If anyone wishes to discuss "local" issues and there isn't a thread specific to that operating company, feel free to start a new one, but do please perform a quick search first so that we don't end up with duplicate threads.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/aircoach-first-group-discussion.247284/

 

[Volvodart]

Firstgroup are apparently weighing up a bid for Arriva.

Exclusive: FirstGroup, I Squared weigh competing bids for Arriva -sources

British transport company FirstGroup and infrastructure fund I Squared are weighing competing bids for parts of Deutsche Bahn's international transport business Arriva, according to a number of people familiar with the matter.

www.reuters.com

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Exclusive: FirstGroup, I Squared weigh competing bids for Arriva -sources
By Andres Gonzalez, Amy-Jo Crowley and Emma-Victoria Farr

LONDON, April 20 (Reuters) - British transport company FirstGroup (FGP.L) and infrastructure fund I Squared are weighing competing bids for parts of Deutsche Bahn's international transport business Arriva, according to a number of people familiar with the matter.

FirstGroup would likely bid for Arriva's activities outside the UK because of regulatory hurdles associated with further expansion in the country, two of the people said.

The British transport company may also consider partnering with another bidder for the UK operations, the two added.

Infrastructure fund I Squared, which considered making an offer for FirstGroup last year, is now mulling a bid for Arriva, one of the two and another person said.

The German state-owned railway operator has said it aims to close the transaction next year. Talks with potential bidders are still at an early stage and a deal may not be reached, all of the sources cautioned.

Arriva, which runs British rail franchises as well as buses including London's double deckers, reported 4.2 billion euros ($4.6 billion) of sales in 2022 and 12 million euros of earnings before interest and tax.

Deal activity in public transportation is growing with investors attracted by low valuations, government incentives to invest in eco-friendly vehicles and the expectation that travellers will opt for alternatives to cars.

Deutsche Bahn put Arriva on the block in 2019, eventually selling off its non-core activities last year after the attempted sale failed.

A Bloomberg report in January suggested Arriva may now fetch as much as 2 billion euros. The bidding groups are struggling to value the business because of low profitability and the high investment needed to switch to electric trains and buses, the sources said.

Arriva is one of many opportunities FirstGroup is considering, one of the people added, calling it a "big decision" because it would be a first move to expand outside the UK.

Binding offers for Arriva are expected in the next couple of months, two of the sources said.

 

[Goldfish62]

Firstgroup are apparently weighing up a bid for Arriva.

Exclusive: FirstGroup, I Squared weigh competing bids for Arriva -sources

British transport company FirstGroup and infrastructure fund I Squared are weighing competing bids for parts of Deutsche Bahn's international transport business Arriva, according to a number of people familiar with the matter.

www.reuters.com

I has heard such mutterings a few weeks ago, but considered it to be low level wibble until I heard further.

 

[overthewater]

If they did bid for the UK operations in a joint bid, could they spilt the operations in two, ie in the areas where they do not overlap could become First, while area where they do overlap are kept as a the separate company?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

If they did bid for the UK operations in a joint bid, could they spilt the operations in two, ie in the areas where they do not overlap could become First, while area where they do overlap are kept as a the separate company?

Sorry mate, but that's literally the opposite of what the article says.

FirstGroup, I Squared weigh competing bids for Arriva​

Competing bids not an alliance. Why would I Squared look to sell the UK non-competing areas when some of those (e.g. Merseyside) are the best performing, and be left with the rump of a UK business i.e. West Yorkshire and Leicester? Also, might be that First are simply looking to diversify their portfolio outside the UK and a number of low risk, European operations might well fit the bill?

I'll believe anything when it happens but the article really doesn't point to anything happening in the way you suggest.

 

[overthewater]

It was this bit that made be wonder:

The British transport company may also consider partnering with another bidder for the UK operations, the two added.

 

[Surreyman]

It was this bit that made be wonder:

Idle speculation but it does occur to me that Go Ahead might fit the bill - West Yorkshire, Southend, Colchester.......

 

[fgwrich]

Olympia is the 2012 livery, Urban is the simplified livery brought in a number of years later which most opcos now use a variant of.

I believe it's the template design that's known as Urban rather than anything colour specific.

The front colour is different too, Aberdeen Urban uses the same off white colour used on Barbie rather than the lilac off white used on standard/Glasgow Urban.

Indeed, Bath for example uses the Urban template but in the much smarter ‘Bath Blue’ colours.

(Ignore the fact this vehicle has already transferred to Kernow!)

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Idle speculation but it does occur to me that Go Ahead might fit the bill - West Yorkshire, Southend, Colchester.......

Its rather catch 22 with West Yorkshire should the sale go ahead (no pub indended). Its likely that the Competition Commission may request that one exisiting First depot would have to be sold alongside of the Arriva depot in Wakefield and the outstations at Heckmondwike, Dewsbury, Castleford and Selby.

I will admit that I do think that Go Ahead would be a good fit for Bradford, Heckmondwike and Dewsbury. Plenty of routes plus some that could be merged to improve links such as the current 254 (Leeds to Cleckheaton / Brighouse), 255 (Leeds to Halifax), 686, 687 and 688 (Brighouse / Scholes to Fagley), the short workings could easily be scrapped and replaced with through workings for operational convenience. First West Yorkshire would then be Leeds, Halifax and Huddersfield only, they could even poach the 110 (Leeds to Wakefield) 254 (Leeds to Brighouse) and 255 (Leeds to Halifax) off Arriva (similar to what Arriva did with the 231 and 232 Wakefield to Huddersfield service when Yorkshire Tiger were sold to Team Pennine).

The only other quetion is what would happen to Selby? Would Stagecoach make a bid for it or would that become a "Buses of Selby" unit?. Likewise if a Go Ahead sale fell though would First set up a "The Buses of Spenborough" unit and operate it out of Heckmondwike?

Its all very interesting.

 

[Simon75]

Would rather First have Arriva's UK division, as not keen of these 'foreign investment ' companies

 

[Surreyman]

Would rather First have Arriva's UK division, as not keen of these 'foreign investment ' companies

I can't see First be allowed to have the Yorkshire/Leicester/Essex operations, High Wycombe might be borderline? Manchester now irrelevant with franchising.
The big prizes for First would be London & Merseyside.

 

[Snow1964]

I can't see First be allowed to have the Yorkshire/Leicester/Essex operations, High Wycombe might be borderline? Manchester now irrelevant with franchising.
The big prizes for First would be London & Merseyside.

I am not sure that First taking over Arriva in London would be a big prize. It may have a fleet of about 1500 buses, but Arriva has really run it down recently; its average London fleet age is now up to 9 years old (was just 5.28 years in March 2018).

There are about 50 new electric buses on order, but anyone buying would be inheriting a fleet where hundreds of new electric buses would be needed in next 1-4 years, along with cost of all the charging equipment.

 

[dodecahedron67]

First don’t want anything to do with London, unless they’ve changed their mind in the past year

 

[GusB]

First don’t want anything to do with London, unless they’ve changed their mind in the past year

Corporate minds can change quite quickly if there's enough money in it.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Corporate minds can change quite quickly if there's enough money in it.

Given money was the reason FG were staying clear of London, I’d be surprised, but not shocked…

 

[philthetube]

I would be surprised, in the current climate if the competition authorities would object to anything.

 

[Goldfish62]

I would be surprised, in the current climate if the competition authorities would object to anything.

The CMA seems to be on a planet of its own at the best of times.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Apr 2023 ==

Given money was the reason FG were staying clear of London, I’d be surprised, but not shocked…

A lot has changed in the industry since First departed from London.

 

[winston270twm]

I can't see First be allowed to have the Yorkshire/Leicester/Essex operations, High Wycombe might be borderline? Manchester now irrelevant with franchising.
The big prizes for First would be London & Merseyside.

Arriva London would be worthwile added to their UK portfolio, Arriva Merseyside isn't such a big prize, as Merseyside will be going down the franchising route too, although they are behind where Manchester currently is.

First Group could really do with diversifying away from just having UK operations, in my mind, the Arriva European operations would make by far the best purchase for them going forward.

 

[Fletcj10]

Does anyone know what the reg is for the fleet number "23801"? i'm hearing the number bouncing around but find no record of it anywhere

 

[Jordan Adam]

Does anyone know what the reg is for the fleet number "23801"? i'm hearing the number bouncing around but find no record of it anywhere

I can't seem to find any record of a 23801, is it not perhaps a typo for 23601 (YT68GXA) which is a Scania K360EB4 Irizar I6 allocated to First Berkshire for Railair?

 

[Fletcj10]

I can't seem to find any record of a 23801, is it not perhaps a typo for 23601 (YT68GXA) which is a Scania K360EB4 Irizar I6 allocated to First Berkshire for Railair?

Im not sure but i wanted to ask but thank you

 

[JD2168]

Not sure which depot it ran from but today at around 2:10pm I saw a PVS Wrecker towing a B7RLE Trainer northbound towards Carlton at Meadowhall on the M1 top deck. It was a version that had an air chill unit fitted above the cab area.

 

[richw]

Not sure which depot it ran from but today at around 2:10pm I saw a PVS Wrecker towing a B7RLE Trainer northbound towards Carlton at Meadowhall on the M1 top deck. It was a version that had an air chill unit fitted above the cab area.

66717, photos on Firstbus enthusiasts on Facebook