First Group: General Discussion

[Markk1990]

my guess is E400s

No E400’s at Doncaster. Likely to replace older B7RLE’s, especially as deckers are required.

 

[cnjb8]

Interesting. I have noticed 5 12 plated E400s at Olive Grove, and 5 E400s are needed in Somerset to replace their Gemini fleet. Perhaps that could be the reason?

Olive Grove have 12-plate E400s in their fleet, with one wearing the new Sheffield livery already

 

[mic]

Olive Grove have 12-plate E400s in their fleet, with one wearing the new Sheffield livery already

yes thats 33717

 

[vla50]

Where are the Bendybuses acquired from Brighton set to end up?

 

[90sWereBetter]

Where are the Bendybuses acquired from Brighton set to end up?

Based on purely nothing but my own hunch, I reckon Aberdeen. They're struggling with availability of their current Citaro fleet, and really need more vehicles for the university routes (though it does beg the question, why can every other university bus route in the UK cope with deckers but not Aberdeen? ).

 

[Volvodart]

It was said by the person who would know in First Bus that they were not for Aberdeen.

 

[vla50]

It was said by the person who would know in First Bus that they were not for Aberdeen.

I'm thinking West Yorkshire but just not sure on where. Leeds would seem obvious?

Does anyone, by any chance, know where E400s are coming from for Somerset? IIRC a few more are required. Depending on where these bendies end up - could they end up displacing some newer stock?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'm thinking West Yorkshire but just not sure on where. Leeds would seem obvious?

Why would Leeds seem obvious?

Mention was made (by you) that South Yorkshire could provide e400s for Somerset but there's a lot of group transfers at the moment. Patience is a virtue

 

[Robertj21a]

Where are the Bendybuses acquired from Brighton set to end up?

Wasn't Ireland mentioned somewhere ?

 

[vla50]

Why would Leeds seem obvious?

Mention was made (by you) that South Yorkshire could provide e400s for Somerset but there's a lot of group transfers at the moment. Patience is a virtue

Leeds would seem more obvious because of the number of high frequency services they operate but of course I probably am wrong in that they will go there.

South Yorkshire does seem obvious because there are 5 12 plated E400s, but of course we'll have to likely wait and see

 

[cnjb8]

Where are the Bendybuses acquired from Brighton set to end up?

Aircoach in Ireland for the Dublin Airport services?

 

[F Great Eastern]

Aircoach in Ireland for the Dublin Airport services?

See my post in the other thread about those vehicles, but basically it's a possibility for a temporary use for them, because of the fact the 11 leased existing 2008/2009 bendy Citaros are due to go off lease in 2023. However it doesn't make a lot of sense.

Any use they could get in Dublin would be only for a fairly short period. Dublin Airport have a long stated ambition to turn their internal transport to fully electric or at least hybrid vehicles. Aircoach earlier this year won a multi year extension of the car park / staff shuttle contract at Dublin Airport and part of the requirements was to move towards electric or at least hybrid vehicles and apparently Aircoach have already placed an order for said vehicles.

There's been talk there is potentially a need for an interim solution between the old vehicles leaving and the new vehicles arriving due to lead times. Surplus group B7RLE Wright Eclipses and Plaxton Centros have been linked, as have a bunch of new build of B8RLE MCV Evoras. However it doesn't appear to make much sense to replace bendy buses to an airport spec with older, smaller rigids that are not designed for airport services and even less sense to buy a bunch of B8RLEs to be made redundant a year later.

Personally you have to ask why Aircoach simply don't extend the lease of the Citaros they already have for another year if they need them for a further 12-18 months or so. They are literally to the exact specification of what Dublin Airport want and were bought new by Aircoach for those services so unless Evobus are being unreasonable with terms on an extension, it doesn't make a lot of sense to look elsewhere and it's not like Evobus are going to have a long line of customers for a bunch of 15 year old articulated vehicles.

If spare parts are such an issue as Brighton and Hove recently alluded to however, could it be a case of First is simply buying these Citarosto be able to use them for parts to keep existing Citaros in the group running?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Leeds would seem more obvious because of the number of high frequency services they operate but of course I probably am wrong in that they will go there.

As obvious as Glasgow or West of England or Sheffield in that respect?


Mentioned this before but I wonder if they've been bought for spares? Bendis are expensive to run so would be surprised if they were for normal service and the existing Citaro bendis are getting on.

 

[vla50]

As obvious as Glasgow or West of England or Sheffield in that respect?


Mentioned this before but I wonder if they've been bought for spares? Bendis are expensive to run so would be surprised if they were for normal service and the existing Citaro bendis are getting on.

Does seem like quite an excessive number to buy for spare parts though?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Does seem like quite an excessive number to buy for spare parts though?

Stuff like axles and drivetrains are expensive - they're getting 7 vehicles at essentially scrap value.

Given that First have been spending time withdrawing bendis elsewhere, and even getting shot of heavyweight singledecks, not certain they'd be for general service.

 

[dodecahedron67]

They specifically had (maybe still do have) notes on the windowscreens that they were not to be robbed for spares. That would seem to point towards a use in service?

 

[Leyland Bus]

They specifically had (maybe still do have) notes on the windowscreens that they were not to be robbed for spares. That would seem to point towards a use in service?

Or that they've been bought as complete vehicles so therefore shouldn't be stripped before collection etc etc...

 

[cnjb8]

Thanks for the response @F Great Eastern (I can't quote it for some reason)
Maybe First Kernow for the Eden Project services? Although I doubt it as they use two former Arriva E200s for it.
I doubt it's York as they are getting rid of their artics when the electrics arrive.
If anything I'm surprised it's not Aberdeen

 

[F Great Eastern]

Thanks for the response @F Great Eastern (I can't quote it for some reason)
Maybe First Kernow for the Eden Project services? Although I doubt it as they use two former Arriva E200s for it.
I doubt it's York as they are getting rid of their artics when the electrics arrive.
If anything I'm surprised it's not Aberdeen

There was something weird in the post, changed it now and also made things a bit clearer as first was written on mobile.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Thanks for the response @F Great Eastern (I can't quote it for some reason)
Maybe First Kernow for the Eden Project services? Although I doubt it as they use two former Arriva E200s for it.
I doubt it's York as they are getting rid of their artics when the electrics arrive.
If anything I'm surprised it's not Aberdeen

Aberdeen are due to be getting Yorks Citaros once they're displaced, although given the time that's taking i won't be surprised if it ends up not happening. I'm not sure they'd want all 14/15 of the York batch plus an additional 7 from Brighton (21/22 in total) as the current 9 are unreliable enough as it is and it would likely mean E500s going in their place. Aberdeen did in the past operate 21 B7LAs in addition to the E500s, however that was prior to the RGU extras being reduced drastically after 2018 thus the PVR requirement is lower now and the B7LAs were a lot more reliable.

 

[mic]

2 more B9s moved from Oldham to South Yorkshire; 37430 (MX58DZC) and 37552 (MX09GYB).

 

[buscoaster]

First have bought Ensign Bus. Statement as follows:

Agreement to Acquire Ensign bus company

• Agreement to purchase Ensign Bus Company Limited (‘Ensignbus’)
• Ensignbus is a high-performing business with strong positions in business-to-business (‘B2B’) and regional commercial bus operations in Essex, with a vehicle refurbishment and re-sale operation, and a high value depot
• Completion of the acquisition is anticipated in the next few months subject to customary regulatory review

FirstGroup plc (‘FirstGroup’ or the ‘Group’) today announces that it has signed an agreement to purchase Ensign Bus Company Limited. The acquisition of the Ensignbus business will not only provide a number of synergies and value accretive growth opportunities in the B2B and bus vehicle dealership markets, but it will also enhance the Group’s local commercial bus operations in Essex.

Ensignbus’ commercial bus operations comprise two B2B segments that include rail replacement and private hire contract operations and a local bus route network complementary to First Bus’s operations in Essex. The business has a young vehicle fleet of 55 buses that will require limited capital expenditure for several years. The Ensignbus specialist heritage fleet is excluded from the transaction.

In addition to its commercial operations, Ensignbus has a vehicle refurbishment and re-sale business that purchases used vehicles and refurbishes to modern standards before re-selling. This will benefit First Bus and the wider UK bus industry as the oldest, most polluting diesel buses are taken out of service. It is anticipated that the market for the resale of lower emission used diesel vehicles will continue to remain robust in the medium term, followed by the emergence of a similar market for the resale of zero emission vehicles.

If the acquisition completes before the Group’s FY 2023 year end, the Group anticipates a year end adjusted net cash position (pre IFRS16 and excluding ring fenced cash) of £70-80m, reflecting the ongoing buyback programme and the timing of net capital expenditure and working capital flows.

Graham Sutherland, FirstGroup Chief Executive Officer, said:

“The acquisition of Ensignbus, a long-established, high-performing business, will allow us not only to grow our B2B offering but to also enhance our operational footprint in Essex, and we look forward to welcoming Ensignbus employees to the Group. This is a strategically and financially accretive growth opportunity for us, and one that is fully aligned to our balanced capital allocation policy.”

Peter Newman, Ensignbus Chairman, said:

“I want to thank all of our employees at Ensignbus for their ongoing hard work to deliver great service for our passengers across all of our communities in Essex, and we will be supporting them fully as they move to their new employer. We’re pleased that First Bus, with their reputation for customer service, innovation and sustainability, will take the Ensignbus business forward as a going concern and we wish them a successful future. We will continue to serve our communities and operate our network as usual until the completion date.”

 

[Goldfish62]

First have bought Ensign Bus. Statement as follows:

To be precise it's an agreement to purchase subject to regulatory approval.

The heritage side is excluded.

 

[GusB]

There is a separate thread for discussing the Ensign acquisition:

Firstgroup Agreement To Acquire Ensign Bus Company

Firstgroup have agreed to acquire Ensign Bus Company for completion in the next few months for an undisclosed value. https://otp.tools.investis.com/generic/regulatory-story.aspx?newsid=1666861&cid=858 FIRSTGROUP PLC Agreement to Acquire Ensign bus company Agreement to purchase Ensign Bus...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Volvodart]

117 more electric buses for York, Bramley, Norwich and Hoeford.

https://www.firstgroupplc.com/news-and-media/latest-news/2023/02032023.aspx

York and Norwich set to become first all-electric bus depots outside of London after boosted ZEBRA funding
02 Mar 2023

• York and Norwich set to become the UK’s first bus depots outside of London to run fully electric fleets
• Four First Bus depots benefit from boosted joint investment in electric fleet
• First Bus to reach a total of over 600 zero emission buses across the UK by March 2024

First Bus has announced that two of its depots will operate fully electric fleets by March 2024, with York and Norwich set to become the UK’s first bus depots outside of London to reach this milestone.

First Bus and its local authority partners have been successful in securing Department for Transport (DfT) approval to boost their existing Zero Emission Bus Regional Area (ZEBRA) projects in four locations.

This means the company will co-fund an additional 117 electric buses across our York and Bramley depots in West Yorkshire, one of our Norwich depots in Norfolk and the Hoeford depot in Hampshire, with 58% of the funding provided by First Bus and the remaining 42% from the UK Government’s ZEBRA scheme.

Alongside the first two all-electric depots for First Bus in Norwich and York, the latest award for the Hoeford depot will now mean that all commercial routes operating out of the depot will be fully electric. This will bring the depot’s total electric bus fleet up to 62 as a result of the combined ZEBRA funding.

First Bus will also continue to work with Leicester City Council on the ZEBRA project at the depot in the city with the pioneering deployment of 68 vehicles.

At the conclusion of the ZEBRA projects, First Bus will have over 600 zero emission buses in their fleet. Additional investment from First Bus will total £35 million and will accelerate the zero emission transformation of these sites.

Supporting the heart of the communities it serves, the company will now convert these depots and install the necessary infrastructure to house these state-of-the-art vehicles in partnership with the local electricity Distribution Network Operator and local authorities.

Roads Minister Richard Holden, said: “Buses are the most popular form of public transport, and these new British-built zero emission buses will support hundreds of high-quality manufacturing jobs in Northern Ireland, grow our economy and help clean up the air in towns and cities across the country.

“We’re providing an additional £25.3 million to roll out 117 new buses to provide residents in Yorkshire, Norfolk, and Portsmouth with better, cleaner and quieter journeys, as we step up a gear to reach net zero faster and level up transport across the country.”

Janette Bell, Managing Director, First Bus said: “This is a significant milestone on our decarbonisation journey. We are delighted to be accelerating investment in the electrification of our bus fleet and infrastructure, supported by co-funding from the Department for Transport. As leaders in sustainable mobility, we are fully aligned with the Government’s ambitions for a net-zero carbon transport system.

"We are rapidly transforming our business with zero emission bus fleets and will continue to work closely with central and local Government across the UK to deliver our decarbonisation plans. We are excited to take our people on this journey with us and look forward to these projects coming to fruition and the first vehicles going into service for our customers.”

This latest boost brings the total investment from First Bus to £82m, alongside ZEBRA funding of £63m. This includes First Bus’s previous ZEBRA success last year, which saw the operator place the largest order of electric buses to date with 193 vehicles from British manufacturer Wrightbus.

All ZEBRA projects are run in close partnership with the Local Authorities in these regions, bringing transformational results to the local bus fleet and enhancing journeys for our communities and the environment.

Each regional project in England will now be completed by March 2024, which is another huge step towards achieving its pledge of an entirely zero emission fleet by 2035.

 

[scosutsut]

117 more electric buses for York, Bramley, Norwich and Hoeford.

https://www.firstgroupplc.com/news-and-media/latest-news/2023/02032023.aspx

Shares in Bamford Bus up then!

 

[Seehof]

So the days of the new Streetdecks in York are numbered then! I wonder where they will go to?
Also do we know how many of these new buses for York are double deckers and single deckers?

 

[dodecahedron67]

So the days of the new Streetdecks in York are numbered then! I wonder where they will go to?
Also do we know how many of these new buses for York are double deckers and single deckers?

Streetdecks to Leeds once the leccy buses come in (correct as of when they arrived) and new buses are a mix of doubles/singles (afaik)

 

[aswilliamsuk]

So the days of the new Streetdecks in York are numbered then! I wonder where they will go to?
Also do we know how many of these new buses for York are double deckers and single deckers?

The split now will be 24 Wright GB Kite single-decks, and 29 Wright StreetDeck Electroliner double-decks (the original 44 was 24/20).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Mar 2023 ==

Route-One confirms the splits (https://www.route-one.net/news/first-bus-orders-117-more-wrightbus-battery-electrics/):

• City of York Council: £1.9 million towards nine StreetDeck Electroliner double-deckers for First York
• Hampshire County Council and Portsmouth City Council: £6.2 million towards 28 GB Kite Electroliner single-deckers to operate from First Hampshire and Dorset’s Hoeford depot
• Norfolk County Council: £11.5 million towards 55 StreetDeck Electroliners for First Eastern Counties in Norwich
• West Yorkshire Combined Authority: £5.7 million towards 25 StreetDeck Electroliners for First West Yorkshire’s Bramley depot in Leeds.

The Hoeford fleet replacement will see an awful lot more StreetLites up for cascade - interestingly including the recently delivered Eclipse fleet - as the number now due (62) pretty much covers the Hoeford single-deck fleet one-for-one.

The Norwich fleet replacement will see a lot of mid-life 'deckers, including StreetDecks, up for cascade.

The Leeds additional order is interesting - that rather feels like a like-for-like replacement for the remaining B9TLs (my fleetlist has 29 of them), which suggests they might be guidewheel fitted for the 40 and 56.

 

[WY Bus Spotter]

The split now will be 24 Wright GB Kite single-decks, and 29 Wright StreetDeck Electroliner double-decks (the original 44 was 24/20).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Mar 2023 ==

Route-One confirms the splits (https://www.route-one.net/news/first-bus-orders-117-more-wrightbus-battery-electrics/):

• City of York Council: £1.9 million towards nine StreetDeck Electroliner double-deckers for First York
• Hampshire County Council and Portsmouth City Council: £6.2 million towards 28 GB Kite Electroliner single-deckers to operate from First Hampshire and Dorset’s Hoeford depot
• Norfolk County Council: £11.5 million towards 55 StreetDeck Electroliners for First Eastern Counties in Norwich
• West Yorkshire Combined Authority: £5.7 million towards 25 StreetDeck Electroliners for First West Yorkshire’s Bramley depot in Leeds.

The Hoeford fleet replacement will see an awful lot more StreetLites up for cascade - interestingly including the recently delivered Eclipse fleet - as the number now due (62) pretty much covers the Hoeford single-deck fleet one-for-one.

The Norwich fleet replacement will see a lot of mid-life 'deckers, including StreetDecks, up for cascade.

The Leeds additional order is interesting - that rather feels like a like-for-like replacement for the remaining B9TLs (my fleetlist has 29 of them), which suggests they might be guidewheel fitted for the 40 and 56.

Unless there's been a development in fitting guidewheels to Streetdecks, I don't think they'll be replacing the B9s. They did have a couple of guidewheel fitted streetdecks a while back and were out testing them but nothing seemed to come of it.