First Group: General Discussion

[freetoview33]

Not quite.

There are still plenty of operations that are still using First (e.g. Scotland, Essex, West Yorkshire) as one of the primary bits of branding.

Elsewhere, it is fair to say that it is reduced to a very discreet "from First" as shown on this recently repainted Streetlite (credit to snappers)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/neilj...rVuah-2kqTrYH-2kE5zNq-2kszSgX-2gidSyn-2g31dQb

Or on this Eclipse

Route 4, First Berkshire, 69388, HY09AOT

Slough, Stoke Road

www.flickr.com

What is more amazing on the Eclipse is the First logo on the front, which hasn't been a feature of the West of England repaints.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

What is more amazing on the Eclipse is the First logo on the front, which hasn't been a feature of the West of England repaints.

Oddly, WoE repaints have not featured the First logo except the small "from First" on the flanks with the exception of Mendip Explorer which has logos on front and prominently on the side.

Surely people can't complain about individuality having railed against Aberdeen for the last 20 years!! As @markymark2000 says, a number of the subsidiaries now follow the Go Ahead pattern - a single livery but confined to a particular operation (e.g. Salisbury Reds) or liveries for particular routes/groups of routes e.g. Oxford, North East

 

[swifty]

It looks like First Essex have finally started to ditch Olympia. They’ve repainted one of their 58 plate B7RLEs into an 'Eastern National' inspired three tone green livery, with a new Essex Bus logo.


Freshly painted First Essex 69421 AU58 FFH Seen arriving into Chelmsford Bus Station in its new Green Essex livery this morning 18/03/21 by The South East Bus Enthusiast 2021, on Flickr

 

[mde]

It looks like First Essex have finally started to ditch Olympia. They’ve repainted one of their 58 plate B7RLEs into an 'Eastern National' inspired three tone green livery, with a new Essex Bus logo.


Freshly painted First Essex 69421 AU58 FFH Seen arriving into Chelmsford Bus Station in its new Green Essex livery this morning 18/03/21 by The South East Bus Enthusiast 2021, on Flickr

Could that First bus logo on the back possibly be less visible? It could be lighting, but that shade of green on green makes it quite hard to notice. Maybe that is by design…

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It looks like First Essex have finally started to ditch Olympia. They’ve repainted one of their 58 plate B7RLEs into an 'Eastern National' inspired three tone green livery, with a new Essex Bus logo.


Freshly painted First Essex 69421 AU58 FFH Seen arriving into Chelmsford Bus Station in its new Green Essex livery this morning 18/03/21 by The South East Bus Enthusiast 2021, on Flickr

About time too. The good thing is that they have gone for something new that perhaps has a nod to the past but it isn't some reworking of the old post dereg or Badgerline era liveries or, for that matter, the heritage liveries that get the veg frothing but mean nothing to anyone under the age of 35.

In response to @mde, the First logo is very underplayed by design. It's equally difficult to spot on some other liveries (like First Kernow's Tinners)

 

[overthewater]

It seems there is no joined up thinking about how the new livery's are appearing, IE in Scotland it seems Mr Javis has opted for a revised Olympia one with just a hint of local news on the back, yet go someone like Essex as seen above its have its own complete livery.

 

[-Colly405-]

It seems there is no joined up thinking about how the new livery's are appearing, IE in Scotland it seems Mr Javis has opted for a revised Olympia one with just a hint of local news on the back, yet go someone like Essex as seen above its have its own complete livery.

'Essex Bus' looks still to be in the corporate layout, unlike BoS, Bristol Citylines, etc.

 

[smtglasgow]

Didn’t the government’s ‘bus back better’ plan have something about stressing the importance of local identities? Could we see new liveries and brands for the remaining ‘Olympia’ operations in England? Hopefully yes – Eastern Counties, for example, has been transformed image-wise.

 

[carlberry]

It seems there is no joined up thinking about how the new livery's are appearing, IE in Scotland it seems Mr Javis has opted for a revised Olympia one with just a hint of local news on the back, yet go someone like Essex as seen above its have its own complete livery.

Surely that's the point, First have decided to let each area do their own thing (I assume they still have to justify the cost), and the end result of that is going to be that it doesent look like as corporate anymore.

 

[jammy36]

It seems there is no joined up thinking about how the new livery's are appearing, IE in Scotland it seems Mr Javis has opted for a revised Olympia one with just a hint of local news on the back, yet go someone like Essex as seen above its have its own complete livery.

Some might say that's a good thing, after all is there any real reason why a bus in Chelmsford has to look like one in Glasgow - I'd argue not.

Perhaps the thinking is to allow local management to lead the way in deciding how buses should look in their area.

I sometimes think First are damned if they do and damned if they don't: Olympia - too bland, livery by committee, spoiled brand, not locally distinctive, etc. New local liveries - First brand isn't prominent enough, no cohesion or national identity, doesn't look like a First livery, etc

 

[Andyh82]

Surely that's the point, First have decided to let each area do their own thing (I assume they still have to justify the cost), and the end result of that is going to be that it doesent look like as corporate anymore.

Except for Halifax and Huddersfield where buses are actively being repainted out of local schemes back into Olympia!

 

[Robertj21a]

One of the few things that First has done right in recent times is allowing local liveries to flourish. All these things tend to become cyclical, just like merging small operators into big groups and then, years later, breaking up the big groups into more local operations. My personal view is that local liveries for local identities should reap significant dividends in the medium term, as long as the basic reliability, quality, presentation etc are maintained to a high standard.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Surely that's the point, First have decided to let each area do their own thing (I assume they still have to justify the cost), and the end result of that is going to be that it doesent look like as corporate anymore.

Some might say that's a good thing, after all is there any real reason why a bus in Chelmsford has to look like one in Glasgow - I'd argue not.

Perhaps the thinking is to allow local management to lead the way in deciding how buses should look in their area.

I sometimes think First are damned if they do and damned if they don't: Olympia - too bland, livery by committee, spoiled brand, not locally distinctive, etc. New local liveries - First brand isn't prominent enough, no cohesion or national identity, doesn't look like a First livery, etc

One of the few things that First has done right in recent times is allowing local liveries to flourish. All these things tend to become cyclical, just like merging small operators into big groups and then, years later, breaking up the big groups into more local operations. My personal view is that local liveries for local identities should reap significant dividends in the medium term, as long as the basic reliability, quality, presentation etc are maintained to a high standard.

As seemingly usual, I'm tending to agree with you gentlemen.

For too long, the cry was always about Aberdeen mandating this and that, even in recent years when that has not been the case and OpCos have been allowed to manage more locally (which has highlighted the differing quality of local management). Now we have the refrain that it doesn't look corporate enough? I mean, there's a certain corporateness about the various vinyls (fleet number fonts etc) but otherwise, it's allowing the management some free rein to have images and brands that reflect their local operations. They do have a sort of corporate template to work from, and this adheres to that, but with some individuality. I don't think it's earth shattering but it looks nice enough.

I'd be interested to see if they have one brand for the whole Essex business or perhaps some sub-brands; I always thought that there was room for more brands; just that the complex route network made it more difficult. Why not have a red Chelmsford City network, or a burgundy and cream version for Colchester locals, and a few targetted others with the green for the more standard routes?

And that's where the real question comes in. It's ok painting a few buses in a new livery; improving the network, and the fleet, is a more laborious process.

Could we see new liveries and brands for the remaining ‘Olympia’ operations in England? Hopefully yes – Eastern Counties, for example, has been transformed image-wise.

Interestingly, whilst FEC has the Excel and the Coastlink, they have been busy repainting 2002 Tridents in Urban 2 (though with the coloured front wedge)

 

[DragonEast]

I think, as an Essex resident, that is the problem. Local identities are a great subject for the forums (so exclude most normal passengers). The best thing about Covid is the local First op has improved immeasurably both in terms of reliability with less traffic and many fewer passengers, and better buses as the withdrawn park and rides (not necessary journeys as the authorities say since by definition users have a car) and Airbus link are redeployed on to local routes. Does it make any difference to the passengers though? Hardly, though I suppose the possibility of winning the jackpot does sell the tabloids so why not the buses; and I suspect the same goes for the occasional local livery. Of course the point is that it is not the same everywhere, like for West Country tourists! Or even the Norwich Network where it's the concept. Maybe it "looks more like" a bus, but the most common reaction is still "so what?" If we haven't the passengers, and locally before covid, we had doubled the number of buses for under half the passengers (and now probably less than 20% of even those reduced numbers travelling). Sustainable (in either sense)? Most of the country does not have an exponential tourist bounce in the offing, I'd suggest. It's the exception not the rule.
I'm not convinced that City commuting and bricks and mortar shopping are the automatic saviour of the bus. Painting is optional. A nice luxury if we can afford it.
So we can get excited. The passengers won't. Just one thought though, the photo is on the 31B, the one route that used to have an active Bus Users group that local (and even national) management used to dignify with attendance at their meetings. Perhaps if they could try talking to the passengers again? At least someone might then have a clue what is going on. Or perhaps it's not such a good idea after all if they have no idea what to say?

 

[Goldfish62]

I think, as an Essex resident, that is the problem. Local identities are a great subject for the forums (so exclude most normal passengers). The best thing about Covid is the local First op has improved immeasurably both in terms of reliability with less traffic and many fewer passengers, and better buses as the withdrawn park and rides (not necessary journeys as the authorities say since by definition users have a car) and Airbus link are redeployed on to local routes. Does it make any difference to the passengers though? Hardly, though I suppose the possibility of winning the jackpot does sell the tabloids so why not the buses; and I suspect the same goes for the occasional local livery. Of course the point is that it is not the same everywhere, like for West Country tourists! Or even the Norwich Network where it's the concept. Maybe it "looks more like" a bus, but the most common reaction is still "so what?" If we haven't the passengers, and locally before covid, we had doubled the number of buses for under half the passengers (and now probably less than 20% of even those reduced numbers travelling). Sustainable (in either sense)? Most of the country does not have an exponential tourist bounce in the offing, I'd suggest. It's the exception not the rule.
I'm not convinced that City commuting and bricks and mortar shopping are the automatic saviour of the bus. Painting is optional. A nice luxury if we can afford it.
So we can get excited. The passengers won't. Just one thought though, the photo is on the 31B, the one route that used to have an active Bus Users group that local (and even national) management used to dignify with attendance at their meetings. Perhaps if they could try talking to the passengers again? At least someone might then have a clue what is going on. Or perhaps it's not such a good idea after all if they have no idea what to say?

Agree with most of what you say. However, I disagree that painting is necessarily only "a nice luxury if we can afford it". Paintwork protects the bodywork and needs to be periodically re-applied in order to prevent corrosion and other deterioration issues, plus letting the appearance of a bus go to the dogs shows contempt for your customers.

 

[DragonEast]

As seemingly usual, I'm tending to agree with you gentlemen.

For too long, the cry was always about Aberdeen mandating this and that, even in recent years when that has not been the case and OpCos have been allowed to manage more locally (which has highlighted the differing quality of local management). Now we have the refrain that it doesn't look corporate enough? I mean, there's a certain corporateness about the various vinyls (fleet number fonts etc) but otherwise, it's allowing the management some free rein to have images and brands that reflect their local operations. They do have a sort of corporate template to work from, and this adheres to that, but with some individuality. I don't think it's earth shattering but it looks nice enough.

I'd be interested to see if they have one brand for the whole Essex business or perhaps some sub-brands; I always thought that there was room for more brands; just that the complex route network made it more difficult. Why not have a red Chelmsford City network, or a burgundy and cream version for Colchester locals, and a few targetted others with the green for the more standard routes?

And that's where the real question comes in. It's ok painting a few buses in a new livery; improving the network, and the fleet, is a more laborious process.


Interestingly, whilst FEC has the Excel and the Coastlink, they have been busy repainting 2002 Tridents in Urban 2 (though with the coloured front wedge)

The immediate problem is that throughout the South East, with both a shortage of passengers and funds, local urban routes have been abandoned in favour of integration with the inter-urban network. Admittedly First Essex are probably behind the curve, but I suspect the result might be even more of a mess!

 

[baza585]

Day off today and it rained, so thought I would spend an hour or two looking at financial results for bus companies (and First opcos in particular). Interesting and enlightening.

As always, the published accounts are only indicative of the underlying position, but trends do shed light on how each opco is doing. These accounts are up to the end of March 2020 so largely reflect the position pre COVID and need to be read in that light.

Highlights are continued improvement in margins in Glasgow (over half the total First Bus profit that year came from the two Glasgow companies!), Aberdeen (back into profit), Eastern Counties (quite a turn round story here), Manchester (though still loss-making it appears that the sales of Wigan, Bolton and Queens Rd has helped), Worcester (back into profit!), and Potteries.

Some worrying trends with Bristol (margin more than halved), Essex (back into loss again), West Yorkshire (margin still healthy but down by a third), and Cymru (which to be fair has always been highly profitable but now just a bit less so).

Now on to the basket cases. South Yorkshire was still struggling, though I think new management will be having an effect there. Scotland East has been hit by competition, and the start up costs of the tours in Edinburgh but is seeing losses in excess of half its turnover. Clearly unsustainable; I'm not familiar with the territory but hopefully management actions can turn this around soon.

Overall First Bus margin is 3.9%, down slightly from 4.1% the previous year but well up on 2.9% the year before.

For comparison, I looked at a couple of Go Ahead and a couple of Stagecoach opcos. Their accounts cover a period a couple of months different to First, so not strictly comparable. In addition, groups may treat central costs differently so compaisons are difficult but the treands from year to year are revealing.

Go South Coast showed a big decline in operating margin (down by 40%), but also a massive extraordinary item, which I suspect relates to the loss of NX contracts and the consequent need to dispose of the coaches at a loss, which reduces the margin there to 2.4%. Plymouth went backwards into a small loss, and I doubt the Cornwall contract will help the next year's results much.

Stagecoach South (10.2%) show margins most UK opcos in any group would love to have, while South West (aka Devon) was back into profit last year, and both improved margins.

As always, comes with caveats but discuss!!

 

[markymark2000]

Stagecoach South (10.2%) show margins most UK opcos in any group would love to have, while South West (aka Devon) was back into profit last year, and both improved margins.

South division has profits because their fares are a rip off. If you are 1 stop over a ticket border, the fare can quadruple. Also having very sneaky, route specific weeklies, the value for money for passengers is dismal but it works wonders for Stagecoach.

Lack of competition in much of the region as well with tenders means they win most of them.

Very good for them as a business but not great for passengers.

 

[Robertj21a]

South division has profits because their fares are a rip off. If you are 1 stop over a ticket border, the fare can quadruple. Also having very sneaky, route specific weeklies, the value for money for passengers is dismal but it works wonders for Stagecoach.

Lack of competition in much of the region as well with tenders means they win most of them.

Very good for them as a business but not great for passengers.

Why is their route specific weekly ticket dismal value?

 

[markymark2000]

Why is their route specific weekly ticket dismal value?

£21 for a route which is an hour long (and most usage is only half way). There are full networks which you can have a weekly ticket cheaper on for less than £21.

It's not even like the link plus Basingstoke, it's just the link and pay again for Basingstoke local.

 

[Robertj21a]

So, say, £3-£4 a day for a trip of an hour each way?. Is that so terrible?

 

[markymark2000]

So, say, £3-£4 a day for a trip of an hour each way?. Is that so terrible?

Yes.... As I say, compared to most areas where a full network is in place.


Anyway, this is probably worthy of its own topic. Not spamming up the First thread.

 

[DragonEast]

If Stagecoach East are anything to go by they are commercially astute (though can still struggle). Like Eastern Counties (and Arriva in the South East) they have/had an extensive territory giving greater scope for rationalisation to concentrate on the parts of the territory with better prospects.

By contrast with the squeezed (and shrinking) territory of First Essex, where would their growth come from? As a local I can't see it. They haven't found it either over the last decade (and longer) hence treading water and hovering just the wrong side of break even. I don't think leisure shopping and city commuting are the future golden calf either, as perhaps they were seen in the past. So I suspect their only realistic longer term option (at least once covid and temporary developer subsidies run out) is to accelerate the reductions in their cost base, which puts them on the horns of a dilemma as it again improves the market for the competition. For the passengers of course, what's wrong with that?

Put bluntly, their dilemma is how do First's Essex OpCo ensure they can reduce costs faster than they hemorrhage passengers? I don't see Essex County Council, whose only interest is the ratepayers' bills [cheers]) riding to their rescue.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Day off today and it rained, so thought I would spend an hour or two looking at financial results for bus companies (and First opcos in particular). Interesting and enlightening.

As always, the published accounts are only indicative of the underlying position, but trends do shed light on how each opco is doing. These accounts are up to the end of March 2020 so largely reflect the position pre COVID and need to be read in that light.

Highlights are continued improvement in margins in Glasgow (over half the total First Bus profit that year came from the two Glasgow companies!), Aberdeen (back into profit), Eastern Counties (quite a turn round story here), Manchester (though still loss-making it appears that the sales of Wigan, Bolton and Queens Rd has helped), Worcester (back into profit!), and Potteries.

Some worrying trends with Bristol (margin more than halved), Essex (back into loss again), West Yorkshire (margin still healthy but down by a third), and Cymru (which to be fair has always been highly profitable but now just a bit less so).

Now on to the basket cases. South Yorkshire was still struggling, though I think new management will be having an effect there. Scotland East has been hit by competition, and the start up costs of the tours in Edinburgh but is seeing losses in excess of half its turnover. Clearly unsustainable; I'm not familiar with the territory but hopefully management actions can turn this around soon.

Overall First Bus margin is 3.9%, down slightly from 4.1% the previous year but well up on 2.9% the year before.

For comparison, I looked at a couple of Go Ahead and a couple of Stagecoach opcos. Their accounts cover a period a couple of months different to First, so not strictly comparable. In addition, groups may treat central costs differently so compaisons are difficult but the treands from year to year are revealing.

Go South Coast showed a big decline in operating margin (down by 40%), but also a massive extraordinary item, which I suspect relates to the loss of NX contracts and the consequent need to dispose of the coaches at a loss, which reduces the margin there to 2.4%. Plymouth went backwards into a small loss, and I doubt the Cornwall contract will help the next year's results much.

Stagecoach South (10.2%) show margins most UK opcos in any group would love to have, while South West (aka Devon) was back into profit last year, and both improved margins.

As always, comes with caveats but discuss!!

Thanks for that summary

Some interesting aspects for First West of England which is being quite ballsy by putting part of the issue at the abstraction of trade from existing services from the new Metrobus ones (though I did say at the time that I was surprised that certain routes weren't reduced more). Also, the issues from traffic congestion which are understandable.

To be fair, quite a few of these follow the well worn track of clearly being impacted during Feb/Mar before the CSSBG came into being; for Essex, it just tipped them into a loss. Hampshire and South West were similarly affected but obviously were at a better starting point.

Eastern Counties is the real star and I'm not quite certain why. That Konect have pulled back in some areas has certainly had an impact but surely not by that much. For South Yorkshire, the impact is clearly yet to be felt and it is very early days. First Manchester....well, looks like they may keep Oldham depot for the time being. As for First Scotland East, it is all about the competition and you do wonder how much Lothian lost in the same period.

 

[DragonEast]

fwiw I think Eastern Counties are now really reaping the benefits of their two previous MDs bets on Excel and the Norwich Network; both brave and, perhaps, controversial in their day (along with the changes necessary to go with it; but over time it's the positive and not so much the negatives that matters, perhaps), and in the face of suspicion and, even perhaps, hostility. My thanks, and appreciation to them, at least. Both, sadly departed, though I wonder what they could have gone on to achieve if perhaps First had been a bit different in those days? In passing, I wouldn't leave out of the credits, Chris Speed, still their operations bloke, for his longstanding dedication and commitment, and a man who really knows the local market. The best bit is they're growing back in markets they abandoned, but carefully. The cake, not just the icing. A consistent, though not always supportive, local authority helps. It's not all been plain sailing. I recall a common comment in the early days, summed up by a passenger as "they don't care about their buses, so I don't care about them", and still have their hiccups, but as the old adage goes "keep battling on, and don't give up".

Comparison with the neighbours is the main reason why I appear to everyone else to be so hypercritical of First Essex. What were they doing? Perhaps trying to play at being a Met, with their ex-London management. Without the support; and with predictable results. Steve Wickers too, has done his bit in more recent years to try and pull them out of the mire, but it's a long, long haul. Is it worth it? I still don't know.

Maybe Eastern Counties were even an inspiration to FWE?

 

[Jordan Adam]

First Aberdeen being back in profit can be attributed to a number of things.

• Driver contract changes in 2018.
• Efficiency savings on the network through 2019, for example the 8 in August had two journeys removed around midday leaving a two hour gap in service (normally hourly), this in turn allowed First to save a bus and driver. Likewise First reverted the 20 back to it's old route and launched a new 1B to Dubford along King Street, both generally seen as a positive move and the daytime 1B is commercially viable, they've even now added a commercially run Sunday service to Dubford for the first time in about a decade.
• Service cuts in November 2019 (reduced PVR & running costs). This allowed for the withdrawal of the last B10BLEs without needing any replacements, albeit two were reinstated in January 2020.

Revenue was down by about £1M, however running costs were down by £3M, hence the change in fortunes.

 

[Volvodart]

They were half the way there in terms of the amount of profits in the 2019 results, but broke even due to a very large £1 million plus insurance claim provision (compared to the normal level of claims).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Maybe Eastern Counties were even an inspiration to FWE?

Er no....

James Freeman is a very, very experienced busman, and he has got a good team around him. He inherited an operation that was already engaged in a strategy to oust Rotala from the local area, and he built upon this with improved marketing and network improvements; if you see what he did at Reading Buses, you will see where his "inspiration" came from.

FWIW, if you look at the strategy that FWoE took with Rotala and then look at what subsequently happened with FEC and Konect, you might see some parallels.

 

[baza585]

Er no....

James Freeman is a very, very experienced busman, and he has got a good team around him. He inherited an operation that was already engaged in a strategy to oust Rotala from the local area, and he built upon this with improved marketing and network improvements; if you see what he did at Reading Buses, you will see where his "inspiration" came from.

FWIW, if you look at the strategy that FWoE took with Rotala and then look at what subsequently happened with FEC and Konect, you might see some parallels.

Spot on. James has never been afraid to take risks. As the man behind the Provincial ESOP back in the 80s, he has a track record of innovation and blue sky thinking.

Metrobus hasn't been a total success and has abstracted footfall from the existing network, which with hindsight could have been cut back more, but no doubt the LA were against this in case it went wrong (in my experience LAs are very risk averse). Hopefully the LA will press on with more bus priority because the traffic is worse than many similar sized cities.

He will be missed, but the team there seems stable, and I expect them to progress in years to come.

 

[overthewater]

Since the Governments of each part of the UK have promised to pay the bus companies, I take it the next set of accounts for everyone will result in cost neutral over all IE no profit but no losses either?

Nice to see Midland Bluebird making a small profit, but nearly £4million loses at the Livingston Depot, I dread to think what the other side is losing as well.. I cant see this going on much longer.