cnjb8
Established Member
Is Barbie 2 the one with the pink fade?
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First Group: General Discussion
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It is (or was). Introduced in 2001, phased out around 2006-7. Not one of First's better ideas and it merely served to emphasise that some areas were more deserving of new buses than others.
It certainly looked pretty awful on whatever it was put on. I mean, how to make something a simple as a Pointer II appear to be a lot older and dated than it really was.
Ex-Springfield Coachways Dennis Dart MPD
Only three of Dennis's shortest low-floor Dart have passed through the First PMT fleet, although another example was operated for a while on behalf of Stoke-on-Trent City Council. The three owned came from Springfield Coachways by way of First Manchester. Here 40002 (S764 RNE) is seen outside...
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Fortunately, the later Urban / Olympia scheme did a good job of doing the reverse.
First Devon and Cornwall Dennis Dart S764 RNE 40002 disembarks the Torpoint Ferry with Peter Giles at the wheel
Explore bristolvrboy's 22231 photos on Flickr!
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Jordan Adam
Established Member
Barbie 1 and Barbie 2 were used from 1998 to 2004. They were then both replaced by Barbie 3 which was the same as Barbie 1 but with a smaller willow leaf.
Here are the three variants (not my photos)
Barbie 1:
First Aberdeen Ltd 628 (Y628 RSA), 2001 Volvo B10BLE / Wright Renown B44F, King Street Garage, Aberdeen, 25 March 2001.
29 2001 628 Y628 RSA 20010325 ae cpy
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First Aberdeen Ltd 1 (K1 GRT), 1992 Mercedes Benz O405G / Alexander AB60T, Aberdeen, 23 March 2002.
36 1992 1 K1 GRT 20020323 be cpy
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First Aberdeen Ltd 62162 (ex 677) (R337 GHS), 1998 (acquired 2001) Volvo B10BLE / Wright Renown B41F, Union Bridge, Aberdeen, 13 May 2008.
From 2000 the preferred chassis manufacturer for new and replacement vehicles for the First Aberdeen Ltd fleet was Volvo. This came about as a result of a decision to contract out maintenance to a Volvo franchise with First Aberdeen engineering staff transferring to that new contractor...
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The reason for switching to Barbie 3 was because with Barbie 1 the side adverts on buses would often overlap the swoop as shown here:
First Aberdeen Ltd 62142 (ex 664) (R588 SBA), 1997 (acquired 2001) Volvo B10BLE / Wright Renown B41F, entering St Andrew Street, Aberdeen, 2 October 2006.
From 2000 the preferred chassis manufacturer for new and replacement vehicles for the First Aberdeen Ltd fleet was Volvo. This came about as a result of a decision to contract out maintenance to a Volvo franchise with First Aberdeen engineering staff transferring to that new contractor...
www.flickr.com
Barbie 2 wasn't introduced in 1998. Initially buses not in corporate spec carried on being painted into the legacy local liveries, or in some cases even a new version of a local livery
Like others have said Barbie 2 managed to make these buses look much older than they actually were, and when they were then repainted into willowleaf, they then looked much newer than they were
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
I might be wrong but I think Leicester started using the fades (albeit on a green and yellow scheme) but they'd only done two or three examples before Barbie 2 was introduced. Going back on Flickr, that would seem to date it at 2001, assuming that my recollection that it was Leicester who began their use is correct (credit to photographers)
4011 20010519 Leicester Citybus P183 TGD
Acquired from First Glasgow (VO 83) in June 2000, Volvo Olympian YN2RV18V3 / Alexander P183 TGD is seen in Charles Street, Leicester, as Leicester Citybus {First Leicester} 183.
www.flickr.com
Seem to recall that the vinyls in themselves were quite expensive; First Devon & Cornwall often repainted vehicles without bothering with the fades. Even when used, replacement panels were not replaced either
FUM-TASTIC!
The FUM-Y's or 'FUMIES' as they were known amongst certain enthusiasts at the time were cracking machines, most were based at Plymouth, the only complaint being the heaters never worked in the Winter so were like mobile freezers! The latter days some found their way to Cornwall, one being 34486...
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buslad1988
Member
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Never understood the decision to introduce and paint everything into barbie 3 as it totally watered down the brand. They should have kept barbie 2 or continued to use a basic local livery for secondary vehicles (like the First Anglia yellow with red/green/purple for varying op co’s). That way you knew what you was getting when the bus came towards you. It’s like Stagecoach deciding to paint everything into the Gold brand even if it wasn’t gold spec - you wouldn’t do it as it would ruin the image.
Eventually of course everything would have ended up barbie anyway! They should also have kept the local names on sides as well... strange that they’ve now brought back the local names and are more prominent than they were before!
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
The theory was you had new vehicles since 1998 and so by 2004, you'd have had a mass of vehicles of the appropriate spec, with a load that were get chopped during the next few years anyway before repaint. The problem was that First had also spent a considerable amount of time and money purchasing other bus companies with a backlog of fleet replacement that needed tackling, and then bought into rail. So the theory was fundamentally banjaxed when they started, and then they bought Laidlaw....
Hence you had 1993/4 Darts that you might have expected to get withdrawn in 2007/8 that we soldiering on until 2012! When I first moved to Bristol, they still had 1982 Olympians out on the road. Also, you had Cornish VRs that you'd not have expected to still be running and so went without repaint, and they looked terrible by the end (credit to photographer)
First Western National 38760, 38749 & 38701 (AFJ760T, AFJ749T & AFJ701T), Bristol VR/ECW, Penzance Bus Station
I believe at the time we discussed the collective noun for VRs, and arrived at "A paradise of VRs"!
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We all know that it was Lockhead's hubris in wanting to fashion this all conquering group that meant local names had to go and an all pervading image was pursued.... Transforming Travel indeed!
cnjb8
Established Member
I guess bus PSVAR regulations in 2016/7 really helped them to get rid of the elderly buses. Didn't West Yorkshire have loads of Olympians up until the end of 2016?The theory was you had new vehicles since 1998 and so by 2004, you'd have had a mass of vehicles of the appropriate spec, with a load that were get chopped during the next few years anyway before repaint. The problem was that First had also spent a considerable amount of time and money purchasing other bus companies with a backlog of fleet replacement that needed tackling, and then bought into rail. So the theory was fundamentally banjaxed when they started, and then they bought Laidlaw....
Hence you had 1993/4 Darts that you might have expected to get withdrawn in 2007/8 that we soldiering on until 2012! When I first moved to Bristol, they still had 1982 Olympians out on the road. Also, you had Cornish VRs that you'd not have expected to still be running and so went without repaint, and they looked terrible by the end (credit to photographer)
First Western National 38760, 38749 & 38701 (AFJ760T, AFJ749T & AFJ701T), Bristol VR/ECW, Penzance Bus Station
I believe at the time we discussed the collective noun for VRs, and arrived at "A paradise of VRs"!
We all know that it was Lockhead's hubris in wanting to fashion this all conquering group that meant local names had to go and an all pervading image was pursued.... Transforming Travel indeed!
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
As did Eastern Counties, Cornwall and Somerset but some of the Olympians that were still about at that time were actually R/S reg examples that were delivered in Barbie 1.
Jordan Adam
Established Member
Thanks for that, slip of the mind! I forgot Barbie 2 came along slightly later. I agree, Barbie 2 was dreadful. It sometimes looked okay when fresh but the vinyls faded and wore really quickly.
Barbie 1 was intended for vehicles with First Spec interiors while Barbie 2 was for Non-standard pre-First vehicles, that's why the later Olympians gained Barbie 1. Although there were exceptions to that rule.
Cornwall still had a few L reg Olympians until psvar ended them, 2 were delivered new in Bristol City link colours unsure of the others
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Indeed, as some early deliveries with the new interior to Provincial and Badgerline/Cityline arrived in the old liveries but were quickly repainted into Barbie 1
Jordan Adam
Established Member
Yup, it's odd that the livery and interior were not launched at the same time but i suppose it made more sense to just roll out the new interior on new orders as soon as they could while they came up with a livery. Iirc some of the early Manchester B10BLEs (R-SBA) batch were delivered in a blue variant of the "GRT Advance" livery too.
Goldfish62
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Some First Western National Darts with the new interior were delivered in FWN livery and I don't think even entered service before being repainted in Barbie 1 livery.
Yes, the R-CCV batch of Dennis Dart / Plaxton Pointer 2s arrived in Nov/Dec 1997 in the final blue/white/red-stripe (First version) Western National livery but with full Barbie style interiors.
460
First Western National 460, R460CCV, Dennis Dart SLF with Plaxton Pointer 2 B35F body at Lemon Quay, Truro, on 2 January 1998
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451 (42451), Royal Parade, Plymouth, December 1997
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First Western National 451 @ Barnstaple
First Western National 451 (R451 CCV) entering Barnstaple Bus Station on 18/04/1998.
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I'd never heard that some were repainted before entering service, but certainly they only lasted a few months before repaint.
You can understand why First was keen to initially use Barbie livery only on new buses with the corporate interior. However, you don't get supermarkets rebranding and then only applying the new branding to new stores. It just seemed to typify First's muddled thinking at the time.
Yes your right about the Manchester B10BLEs, there were some Pointer 2s that arrived just after the B10BLEs as well (also R-SBA registered)
The Last.
In all Greater Manchester recieved 80 Dennis Dart SLFs with Plaxton bodywork. The first 25 were to the original design carried over from the step entrance versions whilst the remainder were built to the facelifted Pointer 2 specification. 6080, numerically the last stands on Wigan bus station...
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Anyone know what the first vehicle delivered new in Barbie 1 livery was?
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Yes your right about the Manchester B10BLEs, there were some Pointer 2s that arrived just after the B10BLEs as well (also R-SBA registered)
The Last.
In all Greater Manchester recieved 80 Dennis Dart SLFs with Plaxton bodywork. The first 25 were to the original design carried over from the step entrance versions whilst the remainder were built to the facelifted Pointer 2 specification. 6080, numerically the last stands on Wigan bus station...
Anyone know what the first vehicle delivered new in Barbie 1 livery was?
Tricky one - might have been one of the R-GFS Darts in Edinburgh??
The first ones I recall locally in Bristol were the R-BOU Renowns in Jan 98, whereas Olympians received the previous month were in Cityline colours but almost immediately repainted
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
These ones (credit to photographer) with the handrails giving the clue
ready....... steady.....
L-R 5619/10/13/16/15/14 just arrived on delivery from Alexanders, Falkirk at Bramley garage October 1997. These really were impressive machines back then. They arrived with firstbus interiors but carried the striking Leeds City Link colours, if ever a vehicle suited the livery these did.
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Yes it was Yorkshire Rider 5606-5621These ones (credit to photographer) with the handrails giving the clue
ready....... steady.....
L-R 5619/10/13/16/15/14 just arrived on delivery from Alexanders, Falkirk at Bramley garage October 1997. These really were impressive machines back then. They arrived with firstbus interiors but carried the striking Leeds City Link colours, if ever a vehicle suited the livery these did.
By the time 5622-5629 arrived for Bradford they arrived in Barbie 1
Yorkshire Rider was in a massive phase of change from around 1994 until about 2002 as each national buy out and local decision resulted in a new set of liveries and fleetname policy
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Yeah, Yorkshire Rider in its early 90s incarnation had a very strong uniform image IMO. Then Badgerline bought them and decided to freshen it up which I was less than keen on.
Then came the fragmentation with the different liveries of Leeds City Link (quite nice), Calderline (ok), Kingfisher (a slight revamp of new YR with a daft name) and Bradford Traveller (eh? what?). I thought it a regressive move but when you seemed to have an ageing fleet and then stuff was drafted in like ex London Metrobuses....
Fast forward now, and I still can't work out the marketing strategy. Leeds has its own livery but branding now being reduced elsewhere.
I don't think there is an overall strategy. Places like Bristol/Leeds/Norwich seem to have branding that works well, in other areas it would seem not. Although we are slowly seeing a decline in corporate image. South Yorkshire for example was traditional First (broken image) but even that is being slowly spruced up. It's probably a case of what works uniquely and where. The cheapest thing to do during covid is improve corporate image (whether that be First/Kernow etc) by repainting vehicles and giving them a deep clean and/or interior refresh.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant a marketing strategy within First West Yorkshire itself. Leeds has its own livery. Excluding the blue/gold express routes, route branding still survives in Huddersfield (I think) but is gone/going in Halifax, and Bradford didn't have it?
On a national basis, it is devolved to individual firms. AFIAK, this is what they are currently doing....
First West Yorkshire (and Manchester) is still Urban 1 (except Leeds with a green livery based on Urban 2 "template"
First Scotland/Essex/York are now in a stripped back version of Urban 2 (with Scotland adding various coloured wedges for certain routes)
First Eastern Counties use Urban 2, with various coloured wedges for certain routes, plus a bespoke Excel livery, and other liveries (Coastlink/Ipswich) using the Urban 2 "template" with different colours
First South Yorkshire, First Midlands, First Hampshire Dorset Berks, First Cymru are also using the Urban 2 "template" with different colours either for different routes OR different depots
First West of England - their own liveries but with some legacy schemes (e.g. blue and gold express) and Urban 2 "template" with different colour
First South West have individual bespoke schemes
Of course, there are legacies with plenty of Urban and even Barbie in some places.
Apologies.
Yes, there is a lot of difference! (in my opinion much nicer than a unique brand across all operations...)
However, what strategies can you really use? Bus operators are pretty limited in their campaigns. Without public subsidy/council schemes I don't see a lot more than current, and lets be honest, we aren't seeing any spare cash going around for at least a couple of years. Maybe the general change during the pandemic/lockdowns will create a step change in the way people use public transport? There are certainly a lot of adaptations to consider post-pandemic.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
'In terms of strategies, you have a range of options and that's what we're seeing. What doesn't work is simply delivering an abject base product (and sometimes not even that) and expecting people will simply just travel.
I'm musing rather than stating an opinion, but wonder if there are some parts of First that have so long been pursuing (even if unintentionally) a managed decline approach and/or delivering no more than a base product that such an attitude has become institutionalised. E.g. there are staff who joined as graduates or who have worked up the ranks and are now in more senior roles, but who've never experienced anything else.
I may very well be wrong, but some of the more progressive managers at First seem to be those who've joined from elsewhere, rather than developed internally (that is as like my impression than reality). Similarly am I correct in thinking some recent high-profile appointments (Bristol?) have been from people outside the industry, not just the group. Are there any examples of really good 'born and bread' First managers that have developed within the group?
My own opinion is that it’s beneficial to have worked at multiple companies to learn different ways and then combine the best practices learnt.
Several Go ahead opco MDs are Ex first group so it works both ways
NorthernSpirit
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In Huddersfield the local "HD Connect" livery is limping on and never really went anywere and so is the "Holme Valley Connection" which would have worked had First West Yorkshire properly did some marketing which was last done in 2014/15 with the Halifax and Huddersfield area guides. The Holme Valley Connection should have had its own area guide produced and the guides being made available at Man Picc, Leeds, York and importantly at Huddersfield railway stations promoting the service to railway stationless Holmfirth.
The only one left is the X63 branding but elsewhere is being reduced to the Urban 1 livery apart from Leeds. One thing to remeber is that the X98 and X99 (Wetherby's) have never seen the blue/gold express branding which is a shame as had all the X services (apart from the Owlcoats to Leeds express service) been treated then it would have had a stronger prominance in West Yorkshire.