First Group: General Discussion

[richw]

What the picture will be in 2020....much the same as most other operators!

Break even for everyone!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Feb 2021 ==

Currently They Are Having Major Financial Issues

No they’re not! Nothing major to cause issues!

 

[Joshua_Harman]

Break even for everyone!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Feb 2021 ==


No they’re not! Nothing major to cause issues!

I'm Only Going Off Of What I've Heard From Other People Here, But Up Until Quite Recently First Bus Was Up For Sale, There Is A Constant Fighting Battle With Competition Which Has Seen Their Operations Cut Back Significantly Within The Last 5 Years (The Length Of Time I've Lived In The Area)

 

[cnjb8]

I'm Only Going Off Of What I've Heard From Other People Here, But Up Until Quite Recently First Bus Was Up For Sale, There Is A Constant Fighting Battle With Competition Which Has Seen Their Operations Cut Back Significantly Within The Last 5 Years (The Length Of Time I've Lived In The Area)

Firsts strategy has changed to retaining UK bus operations instead of selling them.
I think there is reason to believe First is standing its ground against Bluestar, yes they may have a much reduced network then previous years, but I was waiting a long time for them to pull out of Southampton, and the fact they have bought in newer StreetLites shows their commitment to Southampton and competing with Bluestar.

 

[Joshua_Harman]

Firsts strategy has changed to retaining UK bus operations instead of selling them.
I think there is reason to believe First is standing its ground against Bluestar, yes they may have a much reduced network then previous years, but I was waiting a long time for them to pull out of Southampton, and the fact they have bought in newer StreetLites shows their commitment to Southampton and competing with Bluestar.

That's Very True, And I Agree That They Have Done Well To Keep Things As They Are, By My Previous Comments I Am No Way Trying To Insult First, Who Have Done A Great Job, In Other Areas (Portsmouth To Name A Nearby Example) They Have The Monopoly And It Seems That Perhaps This Is What Is Supporting Southampton, The Revenue Gained By Portsmouth Or Other Nearby Areas,

 

[Volvodart]

No, no new vehicles due for the foreseeable future for First across the UK due to Covid I believe

The 2020/21 orders were deferred until the new financial year. They have never said otherwise. If they are wanting any more diesel buses they have to come, unless they make a dramatic u turn about alternative drives only from 2022.

 

[Goldfish62]

Break even for everyone!

Talking of which the annual accounts to March 2020 haven't appeared yet. They're usually on Companies House around Christmas.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The 2020/21 orders were deferred until the new financial year. They have never said otherwise. If they are wanting any more diesel buses they have to come, unless they make a dramatic u turn about alternative drives only from 2022.

Like many firms, they had to protect cash flow and keep back capital.

TBH, I can't recall much mention of new vehicles and which OpCos would be getting them, other than the odd award of alternative fuels funding (some more for Glasgow and Aberdeen). I assume that Leeds would be on the list, given their Partnership commitments, and Glasgow for the LEZ.

In a post Covid world, who knows what shape fleet replacement might take?

Talking of which the annual accounts to March 2020 haven't appeared yet. They're usually on Companies House around Christmas.

I'm sure that it's Covid delayed

 

[Goldfish62]

I'm sure that it's Covid delayed

Agreed. Arriva's annual accounts to Dec 2019 are officially late.

The only public transport accounts I've seen beyond 2019 so far are those for Transport Trading Ltd (TfL's operating division) to March 2020.

 

[Volvodart]

Not relevant here, but some Stagecoach bus company accounts to April 2020 have been lodged.

 

[Andyh82]

I assume that Leeds would be on the list, given their Partnership commitments, and Glasgow for the LEZ.

There are still 96 buses outstanding from the 284 they announced in 2018

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There are still 96 buses outstanding from the 284 they announced in 2018

That's what I was alluding to

 

[buslad1988]

Not spotted a timescale on this (or have a missed something)?

Certainly, it could be an interesting period for FEC. There's certainly about 30-odd pretty elderly ex London Volvos and Tridents that must be on their last legs, and a number of Eclipses also in their golden years (though some are just for Covid extras)

So hopefully, it'll be a refurb of the B9 Geminis and some new fleet to wipe out the Presidents/Eclipses! Oh, and leaving the Urban livery behind and having a strong local image (as they've done in Ipswich).

Seems any fleet replacements in Norwich have been put on hold. Presidents gained a stay of execution and repaints have now started...

The Future's Orange

The latest First Norwich repaint is Orange Line Dennis Trident 33150 LR02LXJ. This is the first of the seven Orange Tridents to receive a fu...

eastnorfolkbus.blogspot.com

If they’re repainting them I guess we can rule out this year for anything new!

 

[Goldfish62]

Not relevant here, but some Stagecoach bus company accounts to April 2020 have been lodged.

Thanks. I'll have a look.

 

[freetoview33]

Seems any fleet replacements in Norwich have been put on hold. Presidents gained a stay of execution and repaints have now started...

The Future's Orange

The latest First Norwich repaint is Orange Line Dennis Trident 33150 LR02LXJ. This is the first of the seven Orange Tridents to receive a fu...

eastnorfolkbus.blogspot.com

If they’re repainting them I guess we can rule out this year for anything new!

If they are following the West of England. A repaint means nothing!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Seems any fleet replacements in Norwich have been put on hold. Presidents gained a stay of execution and repaints have now started...

The Future's Orange

The latest First Norwich repaint is Orange Line Dennis Trident 33150 LR02LXJ. This is the first of the seven Orange Tridents to receive a fu...

eastnorfolkbus.blogspot.com

If they’re repainting them I guess we can rule out this year for anything new!

Crikey - you wouldn't have expected those to get a stay of execution, repainting 19 year old Tridents for all day city work. Thanks for the heads up. Also, after going with new liveries for Excel and Coastlink, looks like they're retaining urban 2 for a little while.

Mind you, @freetoview33 does have a point. First West of England did get 3 B7TLs from Scotland in September 2019 that were nicely repainted in urban 2 with a purple front for routes 3/4 - they were withdrawn 6 months later and disposed of. However, budgetary pressures will undoubtedly see buses soldiering on for longer and/or go as a consequence of longer term service revisions

 

[NorthernSpirit]

I assume that Leeds would be on the list, given their Partnership commitments.

There are still 96 buses outstanding from the 284 they announced in 2018

Question is, where would these 96 buses go? Is Leeds retaining the hybrids that are used on the 7Series or will these be sent elsewhere? It'd be nice to see some routes in Halifax and Huddersfield being Streetdecked.

 

[cnjb8]

Question is, where would these 96 buses go? Is Leeds retaining the hybrids that are used on the 7Series or will these be sent elsewhere? It'd be nice to see some routes in Halifax and Huddersfield being Streetdecked.

There are quite a few 2004 dated Geminis at Bramley, perhaps they'll go to Halifax or Huddersfield to oust elderly ALXs, but they are certainly not 94 of them. Maybe they'll also see off some B9s
I hate to say it but it's going to be a while till we see them because of the pandemic. I think it'll be a while before we see some new buses anywhere at First

 

[buslad1988]

There are quite a few 2004 dated Geminis at Bramley, perhaps they'll go to Halifax or Huddersfield to oust elderly ALXs, but they are certainly not 94 of them. Maybe they'll also see off some B9s
I hate to say it but it's going to be a while till we see them because of the pandemic. I think it'll be a while before we see some new buses anywhere at First

Indeed I think it’s going to be a situation of ‘robbing Peter to pay Paul’ for the next 2-3 years across the group.

Can’t see them being able to place any bulk orders without support from government schemes etc. Not sure if their commitment of no new diesel bus orders from 2022 is really achievable now.

In the meantime their fleet continues to age and soldier on. If it carries on that the likes of Glasgow, Bristol etc are the only places that receive significant new stock the cascades coming out to the likes of Eastern Counties will still be 10+ years old.

 

[Volvodart]

I have posted their recent commitment to "50 new and almost 70 refurbished buses":-

First Group: General Discussion

https://www.route-one.net/operators/first-bus-reaches-1000-euro-vi-retrofit-milestone/ 1000 buses have been retrofited to Euro 6 emissions at First, it being a bus at Oldham. The following divisions have: 231 at West Yorkshire 221 at West of England 165 at South Yorkshire 118 at Hampshire &...

railforums.co.uk

Original post:-

First Eastern Counties

A bus has been spotted, supposedly for First West of England. My instinct tells me it's one of the Scanias for Excel, because of the livery, and it also looks to have higher standard seats. Here's the photo link anyway. https://www.flickr.com/photos/122507681@N02/49039296078/ Confirmed...

railforums.co.uk

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I have posted their recent commitment to "50 new and almost 70 refurbished buses":-

First Group: General Discussion

https://www.route-one.net/operators/first-bus-reaches-1000-euro-vi-retrofit-milestone/ 1000 buses have been retrofited to Euro 6 emissions at First, it being a bus at Oldham. The following divisions have: 231 at West Yorkshire 221 at West of England 165 at South Yorkshire 118 at Hampshire &...

railforums.co.uk

Original post:-

First Eastern Counties

A bus has been spotted, supposedly for First West of England. My instinct tells me it's one of the Scanias for Excel, because of the livery, and it also looks to have higher standard seats. Here's the photo link anyway. https://www.flickr.com/photos/122507681@N02/49039296078/ Confirmed...

railforums.co.uk

I'd forgotten about that - short term memory issues!! It'll be these sorts of commitments, specific tender requirements (e.g. P&Rs) and perhaps the odd flagship service (e.g. Excel) that will get the investment; more standard fleet replacement will doubtless be from cascades.

TBF, I think that's going to be the case with much of the industry with a fair amount of make do and mend.

 

[Robertj21a]

Question is, where would these 96 buses go? Is Leeds retaining the hybrids that are used on the 7Series or will these be sent elsewhere? It'd be nice to see some routes in Halifax and Huddersfield being Streetdecked.

Those hills around Halifax and Huddersfield won't suit Streetdecks (or have they been specified with the bigger engine?)

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Those hills around Halifax and Huddersfield won't suit Streetdecks (or have they been specified with the bigger engine?)

Think Go Ahead has the first 6 cylinder example. I don't think First have any; don't know if that will change in future.

There will be sound reasons for it (like book value) but you do wonder if some of the 2012 B9s that have been sent to places like Norwich would be better in Kirklees/Calderdale (and Streetdecks better suited to Norwich). I'd be surprised if Halifax or Hudds gets anything other than B9s from Leeds if I'm honest.

 

[baza585]

Think Go Ahead has the first 6 cylinder example. I don't think First have any; don't know if that will change in future.

There will be sound reasons for it (like book value) but you do wonder if some of the 2012 B9s that have been sent to places like Norwich would be better in Kirklees/Calderdale (and Streetdecks better suited to Norwich). I'd be surprised if Halifax or Hudds gets anything other than B9s from Leeds if I'm honest.

Absolutely agree re the B9s in Norwich. A number of opcos would have welcomed them, including FHD for Weymouth instead of the ex Diamond E400 sheds we got instead, which have been troublesome thus far. But I guess FWY would have kept them for Halifax/Huddersfield if they were permitted to....

 

[Robertj21a]

Think Go Ahead has the first 6 cylinder example. I don't think First have any; don't know if that will change in future.

There will be sound reasons for it (like book value) but you do wonder if some of the 2012 B9s that have been sent to places like Norwich would be better in Kirklees/Calderdale (and Streetdecks better suited to Norwich). I'd be surprised if Halifax or Hudds gets anything other than B9s from Leeds if I'm honest.

I think all of the Brighton & Hove Streetdecks have been going back for attention to their engines. I wonder if that was to improve power output for their demanding hills.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I think all of the Brighton & Hove Streetdecks have been going back for attention to their engines. I wonder if that was to improve power output for their demanding hills.

I think it's the hills and the high speed running that the Streetdecks don't like. The ones at Wells have been replaced by e400s and are now in Bristol (which is not without hills) whilst the X1 vehicles in Sheffield (on one of the less hilly routes along the Don Valley) have also suffered.

 

[Andyh82]

Question is, where would these 96 buses go? Is Leeds retaining the hybrids that are used on the 7Series or will these be sent elsewhere? It'd be nice to see some routes in Halifax and Huddersfield being Streetdecked.

21 04 plate B7TLs
13 54/05 plate B7RLEs
34 08/58/09 plate Non Guided B9TLs
4 14 plate E400s

That adds up to 72 buses that would be expected to be cascaded by these 96 buses. Then also bear in mind that services in Leeds were supposed to be more frequent on certain corridors compared to how they are now, both compared to before and during Covid so it might not have been planned as 1 bus in 1 bus out

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

21 04 plate B7TLs
13 54/05 plate B7RLEs
34 08/58/09 plate Non Guided B9TLs
4 14 plate E400s

That adds up to 72 buses that would be expected to be cascaded by these 96 buses. Then also bear in mind that services in Leeds were supposed to be more frequent on certain corridors compared to how they are now, both compared to before and during Covid so it might not have been planned as 1 bus in 1 bus out

Fair point on the potential for frequency increases.

My gut feeling on those was that the Eclipses will simply be withdrawn and, to be honest, I'd sort of already assumed that the e400s were heading to Halifax with the rest of their brethren.

As for the B7TL/B9TLs, who knows where they might end up. Hudds has a need but so do a few other OpCos.

 

[BradK2017]

21 04 plate B7TLs
13 54/05 plate B7RLEs
34 08/58/09 plate Non Guided B9TLs
4 14 plate E400s

That adds up to 72 buses that would be expected to be cascaded by these 96 buses. Then also bear in mind that services in Leeds were supposed to be more frequent on certain corridors compared to how they are now, both compared to before and during Covid so it might not have been planned as 1 bus in 1 bus out

I Think some of the guided B9s was to be replaced also (think one of the managers said something on twitter about a year ago over Route 56 gaining new vehicles) plus the new vehicles for Stourton Park & Ride will probably be included in the final 96 (due to open later this year)

 

[317 forever]

Seems any fleet replacements in Norwich have been put on hold. Presidents gained a stay of execution and repaints have now started...

The Future's Orange

The latest First Norwich repaint is Orange Line Dennis Trident 33150 LR02LXJ. This is the first of the seven Orange Tridents to receive a fu...

eastnorfolkbus.blogspot.com

If they’re repainting them I guess we can rule out this year for anything new!

I even rode a President in Norwich that had been refurbished with light leather seats last July. So these will probably be retained for a while yet.

 

[Andyh82]

Can anyone recall between what period the “Barbie 2” livery was used for repaints, from when it replaced old liveries to when they decided to paint all buses in “Barbie 1”?