First Group: General Discussion

[buslad1988]

First Bus reaches 1,000 Euro VI retrofit milestone - routeone

1,000 mid-life vehicles in the First Bus fleet have received retrofit work to achieve Euro VI emissions compliance, the group has announced.

www.route-one.net

1000 buses have been retrofited to Euro 6 emissions at First, it being a bus at Oldham.
The following divisions have:

• 231 at West Yorkshire
• 221 at West of England
• 165 at South Yorkshire
• 118 at Hampshire & Dorset incl. Berkshire
• 84 at Midlands
• 65 at York
• 46 at Glasgow
• 33 at Manchester
• 30 at Essex
• 7 at Scotland East

204 buses are being retrofitted by First in Scotland.
Notable exceptions are Cymru and Eastern Counties, are there any emission zones planned for Swansea or Norwich?

Pre-covid there was an ambitious proposal for 50 new and 70 refurbished buses for Norwich. Not sure if the winning bids have even been announced yet? Or if that scheme has been shelved.

Norwich could get 50 new buses if bid for transport cash millions succeeds

A successful bid for millions of pounds of government cash could trigger an £18m investment in more than 50 new buses and almost 70...

www.edp24.co.uk

 

[Volvodart]

Although the council did not get the full money they were looking for, First Eastern Counties is now prepared to pump a further £18m into its fleet and local services as it had promised to do if the government money was forthcoming.

https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/local-...schemes-to-get-cash-for-norwich-roads-3388008

Martin Wilby, Norfolk County Council’s cabinet member for highways, infrastructure and transport and chair of the transforming cities joint committee, said: “I am delighted we’ve been able to secure this vital investment at such a crucial time for both the economy and the future of transport in the city.

“Retaining First Eastern Counties’ commitment to Norwich has been central to the partnership approach taken in developing our proposals. I am confident all of the projects we are now able to progress will deliver real benefit in terms of health, employment and the environment for years to come.

Steve Wickers, managing director for First Eastern Counties Buses, said, “We are delighted with the news of the award for Norwich from the Transforming Cities Fund, and would like to congratulate Norfolk County Council and all other stakeholders who have been involved in the process, for their success in putting together a bid that has been identified as being capable of bringing really positive change to sustainable transport across the city.

“The dynamic infrastructure projects involved will result in reduced congestion and reduced journey times for bus passengers, as well as improvements in frequency of many core services and air quality; the latter in part by our partnership commitment to an £18m investment in a combination of brand new and refurbished buses which will form a completely revitalised fleet for our operations across the city.”

 

[jonesy3001]

Apart from the emissions refit at Oldham depot, will they be getting repainted into a local livery or just staying in olympia livery?

 

[buslad1988]

Although the council did not get the full money they were looking for, First Eastern Counties is now prepared to pump a further £18m into its fleet and local services as it had promised to do if the government money was forthcoming.

https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/local-...schemes-to-get-cash-for-norwich-roads-3388008

That’s good news! So hopefully we’ll be seeing these some time this year? May explain why the Norwich fleet is starting to look slightly down at heel lately (with no apparent rush to tidy vehicles up).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Although the council did not get the full money they were looking for, First Eastern Counties is now prepared to pump a further £18m into its fleet and local services as it had promised to do if the government money was forthcoming.

https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/local-...schemes-to-get-cash-for-norwich-roads-3388008

That’s good news! So hopefully we’ll be seeing these some time this year? May explain why the Norwich fleet is starting to look slightly down at heel lately (with no apparent rush to tidy vehicles up).

Not spotted a timescale on this (or have a missed something)?

Certainly, it could be an interesting period for FEC. There's certainly about 30-odd pretty elderly ex London Volvos and Tridents that must be on their last legs, and a number of Eclipses also in their golden years (though some are just for Covid extras)

So hopefully, it'll be a refurb of the B9 Geminis and some new fleet to wipe out the Presidents/Eclipses! Oh, and leaving the Urban livery behind and having a strong local image (as they've done in Ipswich).

 

[mic]

Apart from the emissions refit at Oldham depot, will they be getting repainted into a local livery or just staying in olympia livery?

i hope they do and also start showing on the bus times tracker again

 

[StretfordEnd96]

i hope they do and also start showing on the bus times tracker again

Funnily enough I was involved in a social media thread about this very topic yesterday - which to my surprise included input from First GM themselves.

They say that next week, almost by an act of magic, all their buses from their Oldham depot will be available to be tracked (which as someone else pointed out, is now apparently a legal requirement, to which First GM aren't adhering to? I am not sure if this is absolutely true).

Apparently First Manchester (or First Oldham, we may as well call it) are the only First area in the UK to not offer their buses to be tracked in third party apps at this current time (or, as the social media thread also mentioned, not even First's own app was showing bus tracking correctly).

It all adds to my view that First GM if they had a choice to shutdown tomorrow gracefully, they'd snap your hands off.

It feels like they don't want to be here anymore.

Horrible, confusing timetables, huge slashes to their services in recent times - are they planning on leaving, one may ask.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

They say that next week, almost by an act of magic, all their buses from their Oldham depot will be available to be tracked (which as someone else pointed out, is now apparently a legal requirement, to which First GM aren't adhering to? I am not sure if this is absolutely true).

Apparently First Manchester (or First Oldham, we may as well call it) are the only First area in the UK to not offer their buses to be tracked in third party apps at this current time (or, as the social media thread also mentioned, not even First's own app was showing bus tracking correctly).

Correct - it's a legal requirement for all bus operators in England to publish timetable, location and basic fare data to the Bus Open Data Service (BODS), and has been the case since January 7th 2021. I believe, however, that the DfT have stated, they won't be taking any action re non-compliant operators in the first year due to "technical issues" with getting BODS set up.

I don't think First Buses of Somerset are on BODS either, as well as all of the Scottish First OpCos (presumably as it's not mandatory there - transport is a devolved matter). They can be tracked on the First app though.

 

[mic]

Funnily enough I was involved in a social media thread about this very topic yesterday - which to my surprise included input from First GM themselves.

They say that next week, almost by an act of magic, all their buses from their Oldham depot will be available to be tracked (which as someone else pointed out, is now apparently a legal requirement, to which First GM aren't adhering to? I am not sure if this is absolutely true).

Apparently First Manchester (or First Oldham, we may as well call it) are the only First area in the UK to not offer their buses to be tracked in third party apps at this current time (or, as the social media thread also mentioned, not even First's own app was showing bus tracking correctly).

It all adds to my view that First GM if they had a choice to shutdown tomorrow gracefully, they'd snap your hands off.

It feels like they don't want to be here anymore.

Horrible, confusing timetables, huge slashes to their services in recent times - are they planning on leaving, one may ask.

the Bolton Vantage fleet also not tracking at moment 39237 to 61

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jan 2021 ==

Funnily enough I was involved in a social media thread about this very topic yesterday - which to my surprise included input from First GM themselves.

They say that next week, almost by an act of magic, all their buses from their Oldham depot will be available to be tracked (which as someone else pointed out, is now apparently a legal requirement, to which First GM aren't adhering to? I am not sure if this is absolutely true).

Apparently First Manchester (or First Oldham, we may as well call it) are the only First area in the UK to not offer their buses to be tracked in third party apps at this current time (or, as the social media thread also mentioned, not even First's own app was showing bus tracking correctly).

It all adds to my view that First GM if they had a choice to shutdown tomorrow gracefully, they'd snap your hands off.

It feels like they don't want to be here anymore.

Horrible, confusing timetables, huge slashes to their services in recent times - are they planning on leaving, one may ask.

do you know if FGM will be showing on uk bus checker again as they use to apart from buses which did not have trackers

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2021 ==

Funnily enough I was involved in a social media thread about this very topic yesterday - which to my surprise included input from First GM themselves.

They say that next week, almost by an act of magic, all their buses from their Oldham depot will be available to be tracked (which as someone else pointed out, is now apparently a legal requirement, to which First GM aren't adhering to? I am not sure if this is absolutely true).

Apparently First Manchester (or First Oldham, we may as well call it) are the only First area in the UK to not offer their buses to be tracked in third party apps at this current time (or, as the social media thread also mentioned, not even First's own app was showing bus tracking correctly).

It all adds to my view that First GM if they had a choice to shutdown tomorrow gracefully, they'd snap your hands off.

It feels like they don't want to be here anymore.

Horrible, confusing timetables, huge slashes to their services in recent times - are they planning on leaving, one may ask.

they are appearing now on bus times

 

[overthewater]

Edited: Just noticed the post above. Its delightful to see First now on bus times tracker.

 

[mic]

Edited: Just noticed the post above. Its delightful to see First now on bus times tracker.

i know its good they where on before ages ago and uk bus checker aswell

 

[chopperman21]

69391 is one of a number of Volvo B7RLE's now introduced at Slough to help comply with the upcoming ULEZ changes.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

69391 is one of a number of Volvo B7RLE's now introduced at Slough to help comply with the upcoming ULEZ changes.

Think the cascade is something like.... new e200mmc to Portsmouth releasing Streetlites to Southampton to allow B7RLEs to move to Scotland and Slough (via Weymouth), freeing Citaros to Worcester and so enabling Streetlites to Leicester and then allowing B7Ls there to be replaced

Think it's to allow other LEZs to be met, obtaining grants where possible for upgrades, and also putting vehicles of the appropriate age in certain places

 

[scosutsut]

Think the cascade is something like.... new e200mmc to Portsmouth releasing Streetlites to Southampton to allow B7RLEs to move to Scotland and Slough (via Weymouth), freeing Citaros to Worcester and so enabling Streetlites to Leicester and then allowing B7Ls there to be replaced

Think it's to allow other LEZs to be met, obtaining grants where possible for upgrades, and also putting vehicles of the appropriate age in certain places

Rearranging deckchairs on the LEZ Titanic, if you will

 

[jammy36]

I'm being deliberately facetious and appreciate the reality is complex... But I wonder if the politicians agreeing all these LEZs expected the outcome to be a complicated series of vehicle reallocations*... are we reducing emissions or just moving the emissions around the country?!

* no criticism of First who are reacting sensibly to business requirements outside their control in financially challenging times

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Rearranging deckchairs on the LEZ Titanic, if you will

Not really - it's something that you're seeing and you can't replace an entire fleet. The one depot that loses out really is Worcester but suggest that it probably needs something cheaper on the balance sheet.

I'm being deliberately facetious and appreciate the reality is complex... But I wonder if the politicians agreeing all these LEZs expected the outcome to be a complicated series of vehicle reallocations*... are we reducing emissions or just moving the emissions around the country?!

* no criticism of First who are reacting sensibly to business requirements outside their control in financially challenging times

That's true enough. Guess the issue is the local concentrations rather than an aggregate issue (which I'm sure is something you're alluding to with tongue firmly in cheek).

 

[robert west]

Think the cascade is something like.... new e200mmc to Portsmouth releasing Streetlites to Southampton to allow B7RLEs to move to Scotland and Slough (via Weymouth), freeing Citaros to Worcester and so enabling Streetlites to Leicester and then allowing B7Ls there to be replaced

Think it's to allow other LEZs to be met, obtaining grants where possible for upgrades, and also putting vehicles of the appropriate age in certain places

Any new vehicles due for first Essex does anyone know
many thanks

 

[jammy36]

That's true enough. Guess the issue is the local concentrations rather than an aggregate issue (which I'm sure is something you're alluding to with tongue firmly in cheek).

Exactly - it seems an issue where there should be a co-ordinated national roadmap. Yes, concentrate on local hotspots, but in a planned, sensibly targeted and timetabled way.

As it is we see LEZ proposals appear (and sometimes disappear) based on whatever way local political wind is blowing. Or they end up being half implemented but with loads of dispensations to pander to whatever lobby group best bent a councillor's ear.

I really feel sorry for First (and others) having to balance the books (and assets) whilst only being able to plan as far as the next cycle of local elections!

 

[cnjb8]

Any new vehicles due for first Essex does anyone know
many thanks

No, no new vehicles due for the foreseeable future for First across the UK due to Covid I believe

 

[47550]

No, no new vehicles due for the foreseeable future for First across the UK due to Covid I believe

How about the e200mmc mentioned above for Portsmouth ?

 

[cnjb8]

How about the e200mmc mentioned above for Portsmouth ?

That arrived a year ago...

 

[robert west]

No, no new vehicles due for the foreseeable future for First across the UK due to Covid I believe

thanks for the reply

 

[Surreyman]

I believe Southampton has been 100% Streetlite for some time. (Maybe they still have some schoolbuses?)
The B7RLEs moving into Slough, are they Euro 6 compliant?
If so, then they must be displacing the Volvo Hybrids on the routes into Heathrow, the 4, 7 & 8 also route 3 which goes to Uxbridge.

Heathrow & Slough are in Greater London and the extended London LEZ is due to commence on 01/03/2021 (Not to be confused with the ULEZ extension due on 26/10/2021 Covid not withstanding).
LEZ or ULEZ the result is the same, all Buses & coaches crossing the Greater London boundary have to be Euro 6 or better (Vintage vehicles excepted).
I think the Volvo Hybrids are only Euro 5, surprised they are not upgrading them to Euro 6 but I am not aware of any public funding being awarded to Slough for any upgrades.

 

[DragonEast]

Any new vehicles due for first Essex does anyone know
many thanks

Doubtful. No LEZ, and none in prospect (however bad the A13/A127/A12/A120 corridors are or get). Nor for any grants the way Councils are strapped. We should be thankful that Colchester subsidised a few Euro VI retrofits when they could (at least getting Essex on the stats board).
So I'm afraid it'll be carry on shrinking baby, and the best prospect may be what the competition can pick up (as long perhaps as it's not Go-East with their track record to date!)
The problem is not so much what Essex could do (a la Kernow) but what's the point? In the home county of car addicts the bus stands little chance and COVID, barring temporary subsidy to temporarily save the status quo, won't change anything. Worst in Essex have no prospects for any growth I can see as a local. So what case is there for First to invest, even if they could? There are much better prospects, (almost everywhere else!) Even the Stansted X services now look like pouring money down the drain, though a temporary reprieve as the some of the surplus COVID-redundant fleet can for the time being escape to other routes. Add the question whether the housing market can sustain its temporary subsidies that have been their life-saver over the last decade. But it all just makes things even more of a muddle. I still don't have a clue whether the latest MD is a saviour or another caretaker, though my suspicion due to lack of any alternative is the latter, intentionally or not!
I'm afraid if anything I'd see it as more practical and realistic for someone else to grow into Essex than for First trying to grow in and out of it.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

That arrived a year ago...

Yep - they new Star fleet arrived in readiness for the cascade plan

I believe Southampton has been 100% Streetlite for some time. (Maybe they still have some schoolbuses?)
The B7RLEs moving into Slough, are they Euro 6 compliant?
If so, then they must be displacing the Volvo Hybrids on the routes into Heathrow, the 4, 7 & 8 also route 3 which goes to Uxbridge.

Yes, they've been Streetlite (except a few deckers for social distancing) for a little while with ones from Pompey joining the native examples.

Suspect the plan would've been a bit more rapid but Covid got in the way, with the Eclipses into Weymouth for social distancing being one example of the delays, plus the delays of lockdown 1.

The problem is not so much what Essex could do (a la Kernow) but what's the point? In the home county of car addicts the bus stands little chance and COVID, barring temporary subsidy to temporarily save the status quo, won't change anything. Worst in Essex have no prospects for any growth I can see as a local. So what case is there for First to invest, even if they could? There are much better prospects, (almost everywhere else!) Even the Stansted X services now look like pouring money down the drain,

So much like many other parts of the country.

 

[baza585]

Yep - they new Star fleet arrived in readiness for the cascade plan

Yes, they've been Streetlite (except a few deckers for social distancing) for a little while with ones from Pompey joining the native examples.

Suspect the plan would've been a bit more rapid but Covid got in the way, with the Eclipses into Weymouth for social distancing being one example of the delays, plus the delays of lockdown 1.



So much like many other parts of the country.

Southampton doesn't now have any deckers as far as I know. Just Streetlites, plus one RailAir coach which has appeared recently from Berkshire, and notionally some BMC school buses that have been on death row for a while and will never run again. The only variety in the fleet is in the length of the Streetlite and Cummins or Merc engine. It really is a very boring fleet (as it was many years ago when it was all Atlantean, or all Guy Arab even more years previously......). Bus Mecca it certainly isn't!!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Southampton doesn't now have any deckers as far as I know. Just Streetlites, plus one RailAir coach which has appeared recently from Berkshire, and notionally some BMC school buses that have been on death row for a while and will never run again. The only variety in the fleet is in the length of the Streetlite and Cummins or Merc engine. It really is a very boring fleet (as it was many years ago when it was all Atlantean, or all Guy Arab even more years previously......). Bus Mecca it certainly isn't!!

Sorry - meant to say the deckers had since moved to Kernow.

 

[Joshua_Harman]

It seems growth has been very poor on the uk bus front and it seems there planing to sell off alot quicker.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/may/23/first-group-selling-uk-bus-divisions?newsfeed=true

They Aren't Doing Very Well Here In Hampshire.. Almost Broke, Especially In Southampton They Are Really Struggling With Competition From Go-Ahead Bus, They Also Arent Said To Be The Best Employers Either,

(

https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/people/first-bus-refutes-hilsea-

drivers
-claims-bullying-and-underpayment-3114682 )

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Feb 2021 ==

Plenty of spin I see.



How's that significant? It doesn't mean anything.



Great! More of London's cast-offs.



God, no. Please leave Leicester's routes in peace. 54 goes to the General Hospital, oh no, 14 goes to the General Hospital, oh no, 54 goes ...

Make up your frigging mind!

Mass deregistration of evening journeys seems to have helped WorstGroup with their profit margins in Leicester. It's a shame that they now have awful reputation.

Also, £1.80 for two fare stages? Who are you kidding? (In comparison, Arriva charge £1.40 for two fare stages.)

First In Portsmouth Charge Just Over £3 For A Journey For A Journey From College Park To Cosham Station (2.4 Miles) Which Is Really Expensive Compared To Other Places / Operators

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

They Aren't Doing Very Well Here In Hampshire.. Almost Broke, Especially In Southampton They Are Really Struggling With Competition From Go-Ahead Bus, They Also Arent Said To Be The Best Employers Either,

(

https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/people/first-bus-refutes-hilsea-

drivers
-claims-bullying-and-underpayment-3114682 )

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Feb 2021 ==


First In Portsmouth Charge Just Over £3 For A Journey For A Journey From College Park To Cosham Station (2.4 Miles) Which Is Really Expensive Compared To Other Places / Operators

Erm.... why are you quoting other peoples posts from 2012 and the Guardian article from that year?

In the last set of accounts, First Hampshire and Dorset made £3.1m. What the picture will be in 2020....much the same as most other operators!

 

[Joshua_Harman]

Erm.... why are you quoting other peoples posts from 2012 and the Guardian article from that year?

In the last set of accounts, First Hampshire and Dorset made £3.1m. What the picture will be in 2020....much the same as most other operators!

I Didn't Realise That This Post Was From 2012, The Same With The Article (Which Was Only Sent To Me By Someone Else Last Week) But The Issue Is Still Prevelant, Until Very Recently First Was Up For Sale, And Currently They Are Having Major Financial Issues, I Have Spoken Closely With Friends Of Mine About It Who Are Employees At First Bus, And Myself Being An Employee Of Go-Ahead Have Seen Many Drivers Coming From First In The Last Few Months Having Major Issues.. So Its Not That I Chose The Post As It Was Old, But Because It Is Still Relevant?..