First Group: General Discussion

[TheGrandWazoo]

Correct, that has been the plan for some time. The hold up seems to be what is it that allows Slough to replace their Citaros.

As I don’t do FB or whatever, is it dependent on where the StreetLites from Portsmouth??

 

[DragonEast]

Isn't it back to the usual story (which I suppose is good news in a way) that, despite hiccups, the areas that have historically done well (and been looked after) will continue to do well? The trouble with First is they are no good at turnaround (despite talking about it endlessly).

It can give them a business, if they can only figure out what to do with the non-performers. The question that has dogged them endlessly. I'm sure they'd love to be shot of their struggling Essex cowboy outfit, for example, if only they could figure out a way how to. No change there. (The passengers would be pretty grateful, too). No harm in extracting a few bob meanwhile, of course, but it takes us no nearer a solution. Nor, I suspect, to any secure future for First Bus.

Sure there are other, and bigger lossmakers, which may well include Reading, Nottingham and Go-Ahead operations, but they are generally well-resourced, which gives them options. Essex, South Yorkshire and Worcester, aren't, which leaves them few, if any, options.

 

[winston270twm]

agreed - whatever way you look at it, the £1m is a steep amount.

The speculation is former Berkshire Citaros allowing Streetlites to head to Leicester in order to meet LEZ requirements, according to Mid Red forum.

Totally agree, something doesn't quite add up there.....

 

[Non Multi]

Correct, that has been the plan for some time. The hold up seems to be what is it that allows Slough to replace their Citaros.

I wonder if Slough is going to get £££ from Heathrow (HAL) for new buses. Beeline are going back to having direct bus routes to Heathrow in January thanks to funding from HAL. Heathrow have loosened up the purse strings in a very big way of late. AIUI, Slough's old Ciaros recieved an internal refurb at Worcester, they were rather shabby when they left.

The remaining Citaros at Slough have received a stripey purple & black Best Impressions styled moquette.

 

[richw]

Would the insurance element have any sensitivity as to the age of the vehicles as they’ll be self insured?

I would expect First Group to be self-insuring like most other bus companies.

First Bus is self insured, with a huge excess, so claims presumably won’t get made for repairs to own vehicle in at fault claims.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Some opcos have dropped First from their trading brand. I wonder how this impacts trading and reputation? South west for example have no mention of First other than on the unpainted Tridents which are on borrowed time. leeds I believe is another example on their new branding and livery with no evidence of First

Not quite - the new Kernow fleet do have subtle "a First company" on them - see rear part of cove panels https://www.flickr.com/photos/34016...e86Q-2gt8NQL-2gswXJB-2hySbAU-2g6fmF3-2gtaZ78/. That's now the case with West of England with the brand name being much more prominent than a subtle association with First https://www.flickr.com/photos/77751...aiHYoy-25BfDZY-2gjrW9b-2hHTB9W-SE9yQJ-27dLsqW

However, First Midlands do seem to have dropped any overt reference (save legal lettering) with their new Kingfisher (Potteries) and Riversider (Worcester) liveries whereas earlier similar relaunches had subtle First references.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/34487...zY-7SBZHt-8xmuVY-ovNX2H-81C9gJ-oeA4CQ-ou4e6L/

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Scratch the surface at Reading and it's not quite what it's trumped up to be. However there are companies that in some people's eyes can do no wrong. Stagecoach is another one.

Dear old First, however, can do nothing right in some people's eyes.

Yes and no.

First do get a bad rap and a fair bit of it is deserved. However, it's not a homogeneous picture. My local firm is West of England and they're reasonably good but with a few challenges. Hampshire and Dorset is good but South Yorkshire is not good.

I find Arriva to be competent yet underwhelming and again, there are some flat spots (like the old Mids North business) or the Shires like around Wycombe. Stagecoach is generally a bit more consistent and I struggle to think of a bad one in England or Wales. Not exceptional or earth shattering but generally decent. Yes, there's some old Darts knocking around in places like Swindon but they're more exceptional IME.

Think some people like a good old complain about everyone (and the bad always lives longer in the memory) but for me (and apologise for making the point again), it's Rotala that really offends my sensibilities! Even then, you have to be fair and a trip into Bolton on the old Diamond NW operation was probably one of the best driven journeys I've had this year.

 

[Volvodart]

If you look closely, Worcester only slipped in to the red because of a £1.5 million hike in operating costs from £7.4million to £8.9 million (+20%), of that £500k increase in Group recharges, plus another £500k for insurance cost increases i.e. circa +£7.5k per bus which seems excessive, I doubt some of the buses are even worth that much (i.e. old Solo's / 52 & 03 plate Citaro's)

Presumably some of the insurance charge relates to the higher level of total insurance claims outstanding, £137K last year £603K in 2019.

 

[richw]

Not quite - the new Kernow fleet do have subtle "a First company" on them - see rear part of cove panels https://www.flickr.com/photos/34016...e86Q-2gt8NQL-2gswXJB-2hySbAU-2g6fmF3-2gtaZ78/.

Although it’s much less obvious on the MMCs and the recent Gemini paints. Reference to First is gone from the Facebook page and twitter account, and Truronian website barring a small F in bottom corner of Truronian homepage. Same with Somerset.
The only signs internally on the MMCs at least are the CCTV sticker naming who controls the system and some cab stickers for the driver. Ticket roll I have in my bag says Kernow in green on the background and not First as previously seen.

 

[cnjb8]

Isn't it back to the usual story (which I suppose is good news in a way) that, despite hiccups, the areas that have historically done well (and been looked after) will continue to do well? The trouble with First is they are no good at turnaround (despite talking about it endlessly).

It can give them a business, if they can only figure out what to do with the non-performers. The question that has dogged them endlessly. I'm sure they'd love to be shot of their struggling Essex cowboy outfit, for example, if only they could figure out a way how to. No change there. (The passengers would be pretty grateful, too). No harm in extracting a few bob meanwhile, of course, but it takes us no nearer a solution. Nor, I suspect, to any secure future for First Bus.

Sure there are other, and bigger lossmakers, which may well include Reading, Nottingham and Go-Ahead operations, but they are generally well-resourced, which gives them options. Essex, South Yorkshire and Worcester, aren't, which leaves them few, if any, options.

Nottingham isn't loss making.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Although it’s much less obvious on the MMCs and the recent Gemini paints. Reference to First is gone from the Facebook page and twitter account, and Truronian website barring a small F in bottom corner of Truronian homepage. Same with Somerset.
The only signs internally on the MMCs at least are the CCTV sticker naming who controls the system and some cab stickers for the driver. Ticket roll I have in my bag says Kernow in green on the background and not First as previously seen.

Indeed, it is very discreet these days in certain OpCos. Not many (Essex, South Yorkshire) are still “full fat” First.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Isn't it back to the usual story (which I suppose is good news in a way) that, despite hiccups, the areas that have historically done well (and been looked after) will continue to do well? The trouble with First is they are no good at turnaround (despite talking about it endlessly).

It can give them a business, if they can only figure out what to do with the non-performers. The question that has dogged them endlessly. I'm sure they'd love to be shot of their struggling Essex cowboy outfit, for example, if only they could figure out a way how to. No change there. (The passengers would be pretty grateful, too). No harm in extracting a few bob meanwhile, of course, but it takes us no nearer a solution. Nor, I suspect, to any secure future for First Bus.

Sure there are other, and bigger lossmakers, which may well include Reading, Nottingham and Go-Ahead operations, but they are generally well-resourced, which gives them options. Essex, South Yorkshire and Worcester, aren't, which leaves them few, if any, options.

First South West op profits: 2016 (£4.0m), 2017 (£1.7m), 2018 £0.5m, 2019 £2m

Be interesting to see how South Yorkshire fare but overall, most of the results are ok. Essex could certainly do with an Alex Carter or James Freeman type character to really grab that business and realise its potential

 

[Goldfish62]

First South West op profits: 2016 (£4.0m), 2017 (£1.7m), 2018 £0.5m, 2019 £2m

Be interesting to see how South Yorkshire fare but overall, most of the results are ok. Essex could certainly do with an Alex Carter or James Freeman type character to really grab that business and realise its potential

FSW really is a massive success story. No one could have dreamed of a £2m profit a few years ago, let alone renewal of half the Kernow fleet along with it.

 

[overthewater]

IF FSW can do it why not Midland bluebird? or Worcester?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

IF FSW can do it why not Midland bluebird? or Worcester?

Local factors like supportive local authorities, local economic factors, etc

On the two services relaunched in Worcester, they are recording patronage increases. In fact, despite 2019 being a 52 rather than a 53 week year, revenue is up by 5%. Its just a couple of big one off central charges that pushed it into a loss.

 

[winston270twm]

Local factors like supportive local authorities, local economic factors, etc

On the two services relaunched in Worcester, they are recording patronage increases. In fact, despite 2019 being a 52 rather than a 53 week year, revenue is up by 5%. Its just a couple of big one off central charges that pushed it into a loss.

Don't forgot of the two relaunched services, one is set to have a frequency cut over part of the route at the end of Jan, management are saying because the relaunch hasn't increased patronage on the Birmingham - Bromsgrove section, whilst staff say it is because group have imposed Pvr cuts, very little left to cut & the 144 (Salt Road) is Worcester's largest Pvr route remaining.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Don't forgot of the two relaunched services, one is set to have a frequency cut over part of the route at the end of Jan, management are saying because the relaunch hasn't increased patronage on the Birmingham - Bromsgrove section, whilst staff say it is because group have imposed Pvr cuts, very little left to cut & the 144 (Salt Road) is Worcester's largest Pvr route remaining.

The two things aren’t mutually exclusive.

The Salt Road relaunch probably has helped boost patronage over the Bromsgrove - Droitwich - Worcester section.

However, the northeast part now has to contend with a much improved train service so can’t say it’s a surprise.

 

[Goldfish62]

IF FSW can do it why not Midland bluebird? or Worcester?

Quality of management and very supportive council (Cornwall), I'd suggest.

 

[Robertj21a]

Quality of management and very supportive council (Cornwall), I'd suggest.

The supportive council seems to have been the truly key issue for FSW.
Problems at Worcester are usually related to the congestion that's been so prevalent there for years - Management is the same as Leicester/Potteries.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The supportive council seems to have been the truly key issue for FSW.
Problems at Worcester are usually related to the congestion that's been so prevalent there for years - Management is the same as Leicester/Potteries.

The sad situation is that in 2002/3, Worcester received a load of cash for bus priority measures (and so got that bumper batch of Solos and e300s) but they seem to have been eroded over time. First were also complicit in this, not investing as they should have.

However, WCC just aren’t interested in buses. They attempted to remove all supported services and the Park and Ride scheme scrapped with one site sold for redevelopment.

The cityscape (with medieval streets and a big river traversed by few bridges) also promotes congestion.

 

[Robertj21a]

The sad situation is that in 2002/3, Worcester received a load of cash for bus priority measures (and so got that bumper batch of Solos and e300s) but they seem to have been eroded over time. First were also complicit in this, not investing as they should have.

However, WCC just aren’t interested in buses. They attempted to remove all supported services and the Park and Ride scheme scrapped with one site sold for redevelopment.

The cityscape (with medieval streets and a big river traversed by few bridges) also promotes congestion.

Quite. A council with little real interest in public transport (like a number of others) - as against Cornwall which has a very supportive council.
It's of note that 2 of the most successful operators - Brighton and Nottingham - both have very supportive councils.

 

[Pokelet]

The sad situation is that in 2002/3, Worcester received a load of cash for bus priority measures (and so got that bumper batch of Solos and e300s) but they seem to have been eroded over time. First were also complicit in this, not investing as they should have.

However, WCC just aren’t interested in buses. They attempted to remove all supported services and the Park and Ride scheme scrapped with one site sold for redevelopment.

The cityscape (with medieval streets and a big river traversed by few bridges) also promotes congestion.

This is basically it. The local council really couldn't give a stuff about busses. However when rural routes are cut and the local paper gets hold of it the councillors are the first to be up in arms about the state of affairs and demanding high level meetings, the result is that they subsidise out of their divisional fund for about 6 months "use it or loose it". Nobody then uses it so they loose it.

The town itself has, as pointed out above, a medieval layout in the centre. With the bus station slap bang in the middle it makes things tricky to say the least. Regardless of direction everything exits 'south' and all but 3 routes flow generally north so join the traffic also trying to go north. We also have 3/4 of a ring road. Anyone traveling north broadly speaking must go through the city centre, be it car, van bus or truck. We also have floods too, this can knacker up or even close the city bridge which is one of many pinch points.

The depot is also city centre and is a gold mine ripe for development, however moving would cause problems for double deckers as there are some very low bridges on the feeder roads to the east (also where the is lots of housing). This is also where the bulk of available land is.

The city also had roadworks galore too for the next few years and also further afield on the 144 route there has been 6months of disruption and probably more in the Droitwich area.

Stock wise the fleet might have had a lick of paint but it feels old. You only have to be sat behind a Citaro or a trident in a cloud of smoke to know that it is an aged fleet. The fleet is also heavy chassis I believe, or at least far heavier than the E300's displaced in the past few years. The bus station itself wasn't built with 12m vehicles in mind it was built as a mixed purpose long distance and city (mini bus) station. The estate roads that still see a service are also congested with parked cars. Most built when a car was utmost luxury and the bus was seen as the main transport. Now the houses in those estates are 2,3,4 car households.... 12m busses again struggle. So the estates get missed at timetable recasts as it's less hassle to deal with the paperwork of bumps and scrapes.

So if you're cutting routes and or frequency you could see less revenue but also less operating cost so it might balance out. If it doesn't it would be harder to recover as people get 'used' to not having a certain frequency.

Now coats wise - could the referbishment costs of all the Volvo's and Citaros have been applied to the division therefore pushing them into the red?

 

[DragonEast]

First South West op profits: 2016 (£4.0m), 2017 (£1.7m), 2018 £0.5m, 2019 £2m

Be interesting to see how South Yorkshire fare but overall, most of the results are ok. Essex could certainly do with an Alex Carter or James Freeman type character to really grab that business and realise its potential

Dunno. I think Superman (or Superwoman for that matter, Michelle Hargreaves @ Stagecoach East perhaps) is one for the comic books. They can certainly achieve when other things are right, activist Councils (or more probably Mayors) and investment, but without that support ...

Certainly Essex seems to be going nowhere, just chucking every bit of old fleet they can lay their hands on randomly into the exploding congestion in the shrinking operating area. Neighbours Stagecoach and Arriva (and minnows Stephensons and the somewhat (unfairly) maligned local Go-Ahead op) are expanding, meanwhile. What should they be doing in the face of the exploding housing growth? First's MD bewails the congestion, and it's about the only thing we've heard from our catwalk model. Sorry again, but in simple terms I think congestion is an excuse (albeit a good one) not a justification. We can't just throw our hands up (or wipe our hands of it, for that matter). As much as Essex' cabinet member for transport (as he styles himself) used to talk about getting 50% of commuting drivers out of their cars and on to the buses (dream on) it ain't gonna happen, and nothing Essex County does is going to help. It all gets mired in the bureaucracy. Nothing new there. (When working I used to know their Chief Executive who boasted he brought in "the best brains" but wherever the ideas are they seem to stay inside their heads). Even Alex Carter or James Freeman would give up, and given that Essex has had temporary MDs like confetti, probably already have! The passengers meanwhile bewail buses that never seem to turn up, at least where the passengers want them. And the muddle goes on, even the newish attempts to keep passengers informed are often that "everything is delayed" by 30 minutes, an hour or longer. Make of that what we will.

Arriva and Stagecoach suffer in the same way, but for all their faults make a better fist of it, even before we get to the local competition, such as it is. The only thing we can say is that First chucking fleet about has kept that at bay. Not a blessing, in the eyes of the passengers at least. May be Essex have it "too easy" having kept the competition at bay: no competition = no need or incentive to improve. Just shrink, slowly but surely. It's a long wait for the rest of us, though. First Essex just have to coast. I suppose it could have come as a relief to First Group, perhaps? One OpCo they don't have to bother much about?

I'd readily agree that some clear vision is necessary to sort it out, though whether it would or could is the moot point. I've often said that locally it's "not so much what you do as what you don't" that is important. I know we disagree on Arriva Shires and Essex, but in my local experience they have a clear sense of priorities, and it works. Of course they upset people, both sometimes passengers and their own staff, but as the old saying goes "no omelete without breaking eggs". Sometimes we have to. First are the prime example of trying to please everyone and pleasing no-one, perhaps? It does look awfully like Essex "just do as they're told to", result: "all or nothing". As long as the books balance what else matters? Well, to an accountant. The world changes though . . . as a few businesses have found.

With all that, sorry; but it explains why I think there is just no future for First in Essex. Bit like the dinosaurs they'll lumber about and do a lot of damage in the meantime, but the future is with the nimble invertebrates. I just don't think reinvention is a realistic prospect. Anyway Happy New Year; other more important things to do, thankfully.

 

[Adtrainsam]

I certainly agree with DragonEast here, coming from the north east to Essex 7 years ago was a real shock to see how rubbish the public transport is here. The problem is that First Essex don’t have much competition. They can do whatever they want, and no one really thinks about the passengers. Take the service changes from the 5th of January, they’re cutting a route from Great Baddow to provide an hourly skeleton service between 09:30 and 15:30. How are people going to be attracted to such a service? Commuters from the station? How are they going to get home? I’ve given up on timetables as the buses never turn up on time. Why? Because most people in Chelmsford use their cars to get around, so buses are stuck in traffic. I feel sorry for those who must use the bus, and how is standing on a 15 year old bus going to be attractive to anyone. First Essex is truly a complete shambles...

 

[90sWereBetter]

Their Southend-area services have always been pretty decent though. Hadleigh may have many elderly deckers but the fleet is always well turned-out (the engineers often post photos of their work on Firstbus Enthusiasts) with friendly drivers and decent timekeeping.

 

[carlberry]

With all that, sorry; but it explains why I think there is just no future for First in Essex. Bit like the dinosaurs they'll lumber about and do a lot of damage in the meantime, but the future is with the nimble invertebrates. I just don't think reinvention is a realistic prospect. Anyway Happy New Year; other more important things to do, thankfully.

Dinosaurs managed 180 million years, their bird descendants adding 60 million to that. The great apes have managed only a few million so far so they've got a good track record even if the invertebrates will eventually take over.
However any bus company is only going to succeed if the local councils want it to and, without support (i.e. bus priority and infrastructure), it's irrelevant how good the local MD or CEO the best you're going to have is nice new, brightly painted, buses stuck in the same traffic jams with less and less people willing to use them.

 

[Adtrainsam]

Their Southend-area services have always been pretty decent though. Hadleigh may have many elderly deckers but the fleet is always well turned-out (the engineers often post photos of their work on Firstbus Enthusiasts) with friendly drivers and decent timekeeping.

Yes, it’s probably due to competition First has with Arriva in Southend. They also received some newer 12-plate deckers from Leeds a while back as well. The buses are generally cleaned well and most of the drivers are friendly, polite and do a sterling job. The same can’t be said for their services though.

 

[DragonEast]

Just musing, is there a nice bit of irony here? The MBO of Eastern National sold out to Badgerline at what I suspect was a well inflated price in the days when you bought market share at any price (as Moir then amply and promptly demonstrated). Then former EN directors bought into Western Greyhound who were for years the thorn in the side of FSW, before they collapsed and they lost everything. Can we date FSW's rise to at least a partial consequence?

Now First Essex (the old ENOC) are dying (well a bit of exaggeration, but not too much) and FSW (Badgerline, virtually, as was) are thriving. Poetic justice. I don't think I'd be rushing in with the life support though, either!

Locally, I think Hadleigh was the old Hadleigh and District (rather than Eastern National) as Arriva Southend was Southend's municipal transport. The same as Eastern Counties' renowned operations director responsible for much of their recent rise (and who still drives buses) came from Great Yarmouth Transport. It seems that it's not just a recent phenomenon that we have much to thank the municipal operators for, perhaps?

 

[richw]

Then former EN directors bought into Western Greyhound who were for years the thorn in the side of FSW, before they collapsed and they lost everything. Can we date FSW's rise to at least a partial consequence?

FSW rise has been considerable over the last 3-4 years. Does WG collapse And FSW current senior management dates go hand in hand?

 

[Goldfish62]

FSW rise has been considerable over the last 3-4 years. Does WG collapse And FSW current senior management dates go hand in hand?

I can't recall exactly when Messrs Carter and Huws arrived in the scene, but the collapse of WGL certainly eliminated the main competitor. The company was in trouble for several years, having relied heavily on council supported work and having a largely non - DDA fleet. Retrenchment started around 2011, the big fire was in 2013 and the company went bust in 2015. In early 2016 FSW ordered its first batch of 30 E400 MMCs and made its first profit in 2017-18.