First Group: General Discussion

[KendalKing]

Do First still own the Bury depot which the article mentioned? I could possibly see Transdev going for this,

Stagecoach, was using Bury depot last year, when they were covering for engineering works on the Metrolink.

 

[Volvodart]

Moderator please delete superceded below

 

[Volvodart]

Its that other bit, which is the more interesting story... Manchester was always meh so it's no great surprise but its the axe that going to a big surprise.

This has been speculated before, of course!

 

[overthewater]

The point is this what been the final nail? What has made first say.... Thats it, its a mess. 7 years now and share prices, takeover talks, pensions... But now it's like a mad dash to get rid of stuff for 1st April..

Where the axe falls could be the missing piece.

 

[Volvodart]

Probably just the best time to get rid of Manchester the way things are going there and to get the (presumed) loss on disposal through the current year's accounts.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Probably just the best time to get rid of Manchester the way things are going there and to get the (presumed) loss on disposal through the current year's accounts.

Exactly - get it during FY 2018/9!

 

[winston270twm]

The point is this what been the final nail? What has made first say.... Thats it, its a mess. 7 years now and share prices, takeover talks, pensions... But now it's like a mad dash to get rid of stuff for 1st April..

Where the axe falls could be the missing piece.

Hardly a mad dash, First have been cutting back in Manchester for a long time, the disposal of Manchester will help First UK Bus Profits look better, as they will be losing £86 million turnover & a £5.8 million loss from group accounts.

The proceeds from the disposal will make little difference to the Groups finances or shareprice.

There's always a chance that First exclude some of the newer vehicles i.e. Streetlites (63 & 14 plate), E300's (13 plate) & E400's (12 & 14 plate) to cascade around and upgrade buses within the remainder of UK bus.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Hardly a mad dash, First have been cutting back in Manchester for a long time, the disposal of Manchester will help First UK Bus Profits look better, as they will be losing £86 million turnover & a £5.8 million loss from group accounts.

The proceeds from the disposal will make little difference to the Groups finances or shareprice.

There's always a chance that First exclude some of the newer vehicles i.e. Streetlites (63 & 14 plate), E300's (13 plate) & E400's (12 & 14 plate) to cascade around and upgrade buses within the remainder of UK bus.

To answer OTW's question, there's been a change of CEO and the fact that having wielded the knife in closing two depots and holding back on investment, the situation has got worse not better. The "mad dash" probably just being to get the deal done during FY2018/9. Whilst there's this clamour for selling stuff off, the fact is that this will see a possible £80m write down off the balance sheet so, as you say, it's not like there's going to be any benefit to the finances or share price.

I'd suspect that most of the fleet would have to transfer to any purchaser if only because they would have an even greater issue in renewing the fleet without having the newest vehicles being transferred out.

 

[Alexbus12]

Stagecoach, was using Bury depot last year, when they were covering for engineering works on the Metrolink.

Are you sure about that? It was being used as a film shoot over the summer, and is now to be used as a car show room.

 

[overthewater]

To answer OTW's question, there's been a change of CEO and the fact that having wielded the knife in closing two depots and holding back on investment, the situation has got worse not better. The "mad dash" probably just being to get the deal done during FY2018/9. Whilst there's this clamour for selling stuff off, the fact is that this will see a possible £80m write down off the balance sheet so, as you say, it's not like there's going to be any benefit to the finances or share price.

I'd suspect that most of the fleet would have to transfer to any purchaser if only because they would have an even greater issue in renewing the fleet without having the newest vehicles being transferred out.

Thank you. With the fleet that could explain why the sell off is so cheap? if the many of the buses are shipped out. Its sounds like its another wigan where first just can't afford to up its game. It will be interesting to see Manchester accounts in December. If Transdev gets a depot is there much room to simplify the network?

As i said it will be interesting to see if/when/how the axes falls elsewhere, You could easily rule out most of them... but if it's not one of them, then something else is afoot - its the last part we need to keep an eye on. If its West Lothian I would be extremely annoyed we have been left to the wolves at Lothian.

Aberdeen - Operating Loss = £745,000 on a turnover of £25.6M (Down from a profit of £1.9m year before).
Midland Bluebird - Operating Loss = £1.1M on a turnover of £22.7M (Loss reduced, compared to a loss of £2M year before).
York - Operating Loss = £0.02M on a turnover of £16.4M (Loss reduced from £700,000 year before).
South Yorkshire - Operating Loss = £2.2M on a turnover of £62.4M (Loss down from £4.5m year before).
Potteries - Operating profit = £10,000 on a turnover of £17.1M (Profit down from £700,000 last year).
Essex - Operating Loss = £2.9M on a turnover of £53M (Into Loss from a profit of 0.3M year before).
Hampshire & Dorset - Operating Loss = £0.1M on a turnover of £41.3M (Into Loss from a profit of £844,000 year before).

 

[Kahuna47]

Are you sure about that? It was being used as a film shoot over the summer, and is now to be used as a car show room.

Theres also a few exterior walls missing last time I went past it the other day, indicating it may be set for the bulldozers now unfortunately...

 

[carlberry]

Theres also a few exterior walls missing last time I went past it the other day, indicating it may be set for the bulldozers now unfortunately...

Surely that's to make it more accessible to larger vehicles!

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Have you been smoking too much of the good stuff?

Nope, clean as a whistle.

Is 184 operated from both Oldham and Huddersfield? If so, we could see the route split in two, as it always used to be. Leaving just Huddersfield - Oldham and Halifax/Burnley - Todmorden - Rochdale with First.

First GM operates the 180 and the 184 from Oldham. First Huddersfield operates the 181, 183 and 185 and the 186. There is no 182 as it doesn't exist.

 

[Ianno87]

No, it's Queens Road.

I may well be wrong (not for the first time) but I can't see anything going to Stagecoach. There would be an irony SHOULD they buy Bolton, having sold their operations and depot in the town to Blazefield in 2001.

Which Blazefield of course rapidly sold on to Blue Bus in 2002!

 

[Kahuna47]

Surely that's to make it more accessible to larger vehicles!

True, Ford Fiestas are much harder to navigate than double deckers

On another note, would Transdev taking an interest trigger a CMA enquiry?

If, for example they took BN and QS, that would leave them with a monopoly in Bury and an almost monopoly in Rochdale (IIRC I think the Littleborough and Kirkholt locals are ran out of OM) with their Rosso subsidiary. I know they don't have much in GM, but it would give them a massive patch!

As for runners and riders in who's taking what, its really anyones guess - gonna be an interesting few months!

K

 

[winston270twm]

True, Ford Fiestas are much harder to navigate than double deckers

On another note, would Transdev taking an interest trigger a CMA enquiry?

If, for example they took BN and QS, that would leave them with a monopoly in Bury and an almost monopoly in Rochdale (IIRC I think the Littleborough and Kirkholt locals are ran out of OM) with their Rosso subsidiary. I know they don't have much in GM, but it would give them a massive patch!

As for runners and riders in who's taking what, its really anyones guess - gonna be an interesting few months!

K

No one operator will be buying more than one depot.

 

[geoffk]

Thank you. With the fleet that could explain why the sell off is so cheap? if the many of the buses are shipped out. Its sounds like its another Wigan where first just can't afford to up its game. It will be interesting to see Manchester accounts in December. If Transdev gets a depot is there much room to simplify the network?

As I said it will be interesting to see if/when/how the axes falls elsewhere, You could easily rule out most of them... but if it's not one of them, then something else is afoot - its the last part we need to keep an eye on. If its West Lothian I would be extremely annoyed we have been left to the wolves at Lothian.

Is this just a symptom of wider problems in the bus industry or a fault with First's business model? North Manchester should be better bus territory than south. Falling passenger numbers and traffic congestion, leading to inflated journey times requiring more buses and, in some areas, inadequate concessionary travel reimbursement are felt by all operators. My impression is that GMPTE/TfGM has cut bus services more than West Yorkshire (I live near the border between them) - either fewer tenders being sought or commercial services not replaced.

 

[Kahuna47]

No one operator will be buying more than one depot.

I thought the Telegraph article say there were 'two or three' operators interested? If its two then one has to be interested in grabbing two depots. If it ends up as three operators then I gracefully withdraw my comment

 

[SC43090]

I'n not even sure who runs the First Manchester operations these days. It wouldn't be the first time that poor management has dragged an operation right down.

As i understand it they are doing a good job in South Yorkshire at dragging an operation right down into the gutter.....

A few years ago they shut the Rotherham garage & transferred most of the operations to Sheffield since then its been a shambles.....

SC 43090

 

[Robertj21a]

As i understand it they are doing a good job in South Yorkshire at dragging an operation right down into the gutter.....

A few years ago they shut the Rotherham garage & transferred most of the operations to Sheffield since then its been a shambles.....

SC 43090

I'm afraid it didn't need much help, it's been a poor operation (imho) for many years.

.

 

[winston270twm]

I thought the Telegraph article say there were 'two or three' operators interested? If its two then one has to be interested in grabbing two depots. If it ends up as three operators then I gracefully withdraw my comment

No, that's not how I understand it, extract from article extract below:

"Each of the sites will be sold to separate bus companies, they added."​

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'm afraid it didn't need much help, it's been a poor operation (imho) for many years.

.

To be honest, the Rotherham depot was massively underutilised and must have cost a small fortune in business rates and overheads. Just not certain that it was the best solution to the problem.

TBH, many of the issues I saw in Greater Manchester are equally apparent in First South Yorkshire.

 

[winston270twm]

To be honest, the Rotherham depot was massively underutilised and must have cost a small fortune in business rates and overheads. Just not certain that it was the best solution to the problem.

TBH, many of the issues I saw in Greater Manchester are equally apparent in First South Yorkshire.

It's interesting if you look at the Stagecoach subsidiary profits figures posted in another thread, Stagecoach's best performing areas are First's worst, the Yorkshire figures are suggested inflated by a Lincoln RCC dividend (see post two down). Stagecoach are growing profits further in Manchester, whilst First are loss making.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ach-buses-megabus-magicbus-etc.159205/page-15

 

[smtglasgow]

What jumps out to me is how Stagecoach consistently manage to get decent profits out of parts of the UK that are struggling economically. The ‘weak economy in the North’ argument - undeniably true – has been trotted out by First for years now, yet Stagecoach seem much more nibble in cutting their cloth. The various North of England companies are turning in strong results in the current economic context. And all achieved with a steady stream of investment in new stock. Even the HIghland loss can be explained by the loss of contracts in the last tendering round (which they have won back via the recent D&E deal).

 

[Surreyman]

Comparing North Manchester (Mostly First) to South Manchester (mostly Stagecoach), Stagecoach, in year to 28/04/2018, made an operating profit of £17.7m on a turnover of £119.6m.
(Corrected figures)

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It's interesting if you look at the Stagecoach subsidiary profits figures posted in another thread, Stagecoach's best performing areas are First's worst, the Yorkshire figures are suggested inflated by a Lincoln RCC dividend (see post two down). Stagecoach are growing profits further in Manchester, whilst First are loss making.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ach-buses-megabus-magicbus-etc.159205/page-15

I fully agree with you Winston and other posters that the comparison is pretty humbling! Now comparing the two bits of Manchester....and trying to be fair and objective....

First do operate in the parts of Greater Manchester that have perhaps suffered the greatest economic challenges. That much is fair enough and should be acknowledged in that Stagecoach perhaps have some of the better patches though you can't say that they haven't been affected by the trams and that they also have challenges in areas like East Manchester and areas like Wythenshawe.

However, and apologies if it hasn't been clear in earlier comments, but I am genuinely perplexed by how poorly First Manchester performs. Now, my recent trip out was just a snapshot to get a flavour for things, and it was more Manchester/Bolton orientated rather than out to Oldham etc. I mean, it's not a stellar experience to travel on but the buses-seemed to carry reasonable numbers even on a Saturday afternoon so whilst you would expect it to be under-performing, the losses it's turning in are quite something. And this is especially after the depot closures that were doubtless aimed at realigning the cost base.

Perhaps the most telling thing was the network map for Bolton https://www.firstgroup.com/uploads/maps/Manchester CC Network Map_Bolton.pdf - half the town is essentially vacated save for two routes.

In short, First can rightly point to some external factors but it does seem the business has been poorly managed for a long time, both pre and post Giles.

 

[Robertj21a]

To be honest, the Rotherham depot was massively underutilised and must have cost a small fortune in business rates and overheads. Just not certain that it was the best solution to the problem.

TBH, many of the issues I saw in Greater Manchester are equally apparent in First South Yorkshire.

I go a lot (perhaps too much !) on my general, overall, impression of an operation. First South Yorkshire, at Doncaster in particular, always appears to be a tatty, run down, operation where it seems quite evident that nobody really cares (including, presumably, the MD). In that respect it's similar to how Potteries appeared to be, prior to the change of MD.
Rightly or wrongly, in my view, 'good' operations can often be identified by the overall appearance of the fleet itself, the staff, timekeeping etc. I guess it all comes down to whether or not you have pride in what you do.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I go a lot (perhaps too much !) on my general, overall, impression of an operation. First South Yorkshire, at Doncaster in particular, always appears to be a tatty, run down, operation where it seems quite evident that nobody really cares (including, presumably, the MD). In that respect it's similar to how Potteries appeared to be, prior to the change of MD.
Rightly or wrongly, in my view, 'good' operations can often be identified by the overall appearance of the fleet itself, the staff, timekeeping etc. I guess it all comes down to whether or not you have pride in what you do.

You're right , you can usually get a fair idea of an operation from the outward appearance. I try to experience it before commenting though usually it is a snapshot - a few journeys on a day.

I travelled on FSY a couple of days after my Manc trip and I really can't disagree with you. I spent most of my time around Doncaster and the operation was certainly worse than my albeit limited Sheffield experience and whilst part of that can be attributed to having tired B7Ls and B7TLs of 2001/2 vintage, even the relatively modern Streetlites looked grimy and not from just that days' exertions. Aside from the X1, branding is non existent and the only marketing I saw was advertising for maintenance staff though to be honest, you have to get the "product" right before you can embark on marketing.

Again, the comparison with Stagecoach was telling, especially when travelling on the new Gold deckers from Sheffield to Barnsley!

 

[Volvodart]

£48 million funding to drive down bus emissions across the UK
Bus commuters to benefit from funding of 263 new ultra low emission buses

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/48-million-funding-to-drive-down-bus-emissions-across-the-uk

£48 million funding to drive down bus emissions across the UK
Bus commuters to benefit from funding of 263 new ultra low emission buses.

Published 6 February 2019
From:
Department for Transport, Office for Low Emission Vehicles, and Nusrat Ghani MP
Picture of low emission bus.
263 new ultra-low emission buses will double numbers in the UK fleet
Industry pledge to tackle loneliness through new community initiatives and innovative vehicle design
funding for new buses and charging infrastructure will help meet low emission targets in the government’s Clean Air Strategy
Communities across the UK will benefit from greener journeys thanks to 263 new low emission buses, Minister Nusrat Ghani will announce today (Wednesday 6 February 2019). A £48 million investment from the Office for Low Emission Vehicles will fund new green vehicles and infrastructure to drive forward government plans to clean up the air in towns and cities.

Speaking at the UK Bus Summit this morning, the minister will also announce a new partnership with Greener Journeys to reflect the pivotal role played by the bus industry in tackling loneliness and social isolation.

The partnership will see companies across the sector pledge to do all they can to tackle loneliness, including through innovative vehicle design and initiatives to encourage bus passengers to talk to each other.

Buses Minister Nusrat Ghani said:

Buses are far more than a way of getting from A to B. They are a crucial tool in the fight against loneliness and it is good to see the industry taking steps to tackle isolation.

This government is doing more than ever before to reduce emissions across all modes of transport and I’m delighted to see the bus industry putting itself at the forefront of this.

Nineteen successful bidders across England and Wales will receive funding to purchase new low emission buses and supporting infrastructure, such as charge points.

This is the latest funding in a long line of investment designed to drive the uptake of zero emission vehicles, following the government’s £1.5 billion Road to Zero strategy published last year.

In line with the Future of Mobility Grand Challenge - set out in the government’s modern Industrial Strategy - these measures chart a path for Britain to become a world leader in the zero-emission revolution, ensuring that the UK has cleaner air, a better environment and a stronger economy.

But buses are not just about cleaning up the air in our towns and cities. As a key mode of transport for older and vulnerable people, buses play a vital role in facilitating social connections.

The government also supports bus travel through a £250 million investment every year, as well as a further £1 billion for the free bus pass scheme, paving the way to a more sustainable future.

On top of this, there have already been several promising schemes launched by the bus sector, including Go Ahead Group’s ‘Chatty Bus’ campaign, encouraging conversations between passengers, and ‘Hattie,’ a community bus from Stagecoach specifically designed to provide a friendly environment where people can chat to others.

Claire Haigh, Chief Executive, Greener Journeys, said:

We’re delighted to be partnering with the government to tackle the epidemic of loneliness affecting millions of people in the UK. Research from Greener Journeys shows that a third of people in Britain go at least a day a week without speaking to anyone - not a friend, colleague or family member.

Buses play a vital role in facilitating social connections among the most vulnerable people, who rely on them to take them to visit friends and family. It’s fantastic to see the industry come together to launch such a brilliant range of initiatives to address the problem of loneliness.

The Prime Minister launched the government’s first loneliness strategy in October 2018, as a vital first step in a national mission to end loneliness in our lifetimes. Loneliness is one of the greatest public health challenges of our time and the strategy, which responds to the findings of the Jo Cox Commission, sets out a range of initiatives to help all age groups build connections.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/ultra-low-emission-bus-scheme-successful-bidders

This includes:-

Bidder Type of technology Number of buses Funding for buses Funding for infrastructure Total amount funded
First Bus Manchester Electric 12 £1,647,000.00 £375,000.00 £2,022,000.00
First West Yorkshire Electric 9 £1,275,747.00 £494,725.50 £1,770,472.50

 

[overthewater]

So will this go to the new owners??