First Group: General Discussion

[F Great Eastern]

The first of the B11R Aircoach Panthers have now arrived at Irish Commercials (Volvo Dealer) in Ireland.

They will be held back for 2019 registrations and will likely see off the rest of the 2008 Volvo B12BT Jonckheere SHV Tri-Axle coaches which are higher quality vehicles, both from a bodywork, build quality and comfort point of view,, but ultimately guzzle quite a bit more fuel.

 

[Pokelet]

Just ban them.. Why is that such a noverty? Make people use park n rides. etc

That would be 100% unenforceable and not practical. Park and Ride doesn't work for through traffic, people still need to get to P&R and the sites need to be in strategic and easily accessible places. Worcester used to have a P&R, closed a few years back with the site set to become a school next year.

 

[overthewater]

Why is it unenforceable and not practical?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Why is it unenforceable and not practical?

Hmmm - what about the politics of it all? Would any politician be proposing that - I would think not. That's before you get onto banning cars for residents (who live in the city centre) and the issues of blue badge holders etc.

That's before you then start factoring in the impact on local businesses (why go shopping in Worcester - come drive to Gloucester) or will office firms look to relocate.

There's reasons why such measures aren't being pursued.

 

[Jordan Adam]

I have a better idea, just pedestrianise all streets, bulldoze all motorways and force the public to cycle.

 

[Surreyman]

Hmmm - what about the politics of it all? Would any politician be proposing that - I would think not. That's before you get onto banning cars for residents (who live in the city centre) and the issues of blue badge holders etc.

That's before you then start factoring in the impact on local businesses (why go shopping in Worcester - come drive to Gloucester) or will office firms look to relocate.

There's reasons why such measures aren't being pursued.

Talking of bans/driving restrictions: --
Of the various CAZs proposed around the UK, some seem to be backtracking, I believe (correct me if I have misunderstood) that both Derby & Nottingham have recently decided not to go ahead with a full low emission zone, instead, they are happy to just see buses upgraded to Euro 6.
Local politicians are terrified of P****g off private car & van owners.
Politically, it is relatively easy to persuade the 'Big Boys' to upgrade their vehicles (and I am including Big delivery vehicles/companies here as well as buses) not so small vans, cars, motorcycles etc.
London is looking interesting (By the way I personally fully support the ULEZ and revised outer zones), lots of rumours going around now about a backlash from London residents, we will have to see.
People will also have been watching what has been going on in France.
Like it or not, brutal reality is that many people in the UK believe that they have a right to own/drive as many vehicle as they like and drive where and when they like, this is the dilemma for politicians.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Talking of bans/driving restrictions: --
Of the various CAZs proposed around the UK, some seem to be backtracking, I believe (correct me if I have misunderstood) that both Derby & Nottingham have recently decided not to go ahead with a full low emission zone, instead, they are happy to just see buses upgraded to Euro 6.
Local politicians are terrified of P****g off private car & van owners.
Politically, it is relatively easy to persuade the 'Big Boys' to upgrade their vehicles (and I am including Big delivery vehicles/companies here as well as buses) not so small vans, cars, motorcycles etc.
London is looking interesting (By the way I personally fully support the ULEZ and revised outer zones), lots of rumours going around now about a backlash from London residents, we will have to see.
People will also have been watching what has been going on in France.
Like it or not, brutal reality is that many people in the UK believe that they have a right to own/drive as many vehicle as they like and drive where and when they like, this is the dilemma for politicians.

Can’t disagree with that!

 

[DragonEast]

Not just that; but the "cars" are getting bigger, I suspect not least that with the standard of much driving people feel "safer", and in a big car we're never going to "not have enough room", the big fear.

And if local councils didn't have their car park income, they'd probably already be bankrupt.

 

[Robertj21a]

Talking of bans/driving restrictions: --
Of the various CAZs proposed around the UK, some seem to be backtracking, I believe (correct me if I have misunderstood) that both Derby & Nottingham have recently decided not to go ahead with a full low emission zone, instead, they are happy to just see buses upgraded to Euro 6.
Local politicians are terrified of P****g off private car & van owners.
Politically, it is relatively easy to persuade the 'Big Boys' to upgrade their vehicles (and I am including Big delivery vehicles/companies here as well as buses) not so small vans, cars, motorcycles etc.
London is looking interesting (By the way I personally fully support the ULEZ and revised outer zones), lots of rumours going around now about a backlash from London residents, we will have to see.
People will also have been watching what has been going on in France.
Like it or not, brutal reality is that many people in the UK believe that they have a right to own/drive as many vehicle as they like and drive where and when they like, this is the dilemma for politicians.

Nottingham has achieved a significant improvement which is, presumably, down to their many gas and electric buses in the city, rather than just Euro 6.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

We are drifting off topic here so to try and bring it back to First...

That the focus is placed onto fleet operators (both passenger and freight) is not surprising. We have already seen fuel protests when people's costs were disproportionately raised (and not a gillet jaune in sight) and the Manchester referendum - politicians daren't upset the private car owner unduly so bus companies are an easy target. It looks fairly clear that First will focus most of their investment in the areas where bus partnerships exist and/or where LEZs/CAZs exist or are being introduced - hence why Leeds, Sheffield, Kernow, Portsmouth, Bristol are getting the lions' share of the available money. This investment will be in new vehicles or refurbs (such as the 2009 Volvos being refurbished for First Worcester) and some judicious moving round of vehicles (e.g. Leicester may receive cascaded Streetlites that can be more readily brought up to euro VI - believe some are already expected).

 

[Andyh82]

I picked up a leaflet in Halifax about how First are ‘Improving for you’. I believe these leaflets are being published by all the operating companies, but in the case of Halifax they’ve obviously just done one version for West Yorkshire and rather than being a positive publication, it almost is an insult.

The main points included are

Contactless payments
Real time info via the app (we’ve had real time tracking in WY for over 10 years)
Working with the WYCA and Leeds City Council to improve infrastructure
284 new buses in Leeds

 

[Kahuna47]

I picked up a leaflet in Halifax about how First are ‘Improving for you’. I believe these leaflets are being published by all the operating companies, but in the case of Halifax they’ve obviously just done one version for West Yorkshire and rather than being a positive publication, it almost is an insult.

The main points included are

Contactless payments
Real time info via the app (we’ve had real time tracking in WY for over 10 years)
Working with the WYCA and Leeds City Council to improve infrastructure
284 new buses in Leeds

Yeah, most OpCos have them and are wowfully generic. The FGM one only talks about the improvements for Vantage - it comes over as a 'Vantage is a success, sod the rest of you! They also mention the contactless and real time stuff, which I find sporadic at best. You would of thought they would have already crossed that function over to Ticketer by now...

As I'm sure what happens elsewhere, FGMs engineering budget is approaching year end (in 3 months!) and already experiencing a lot of busses off the road due to defects. Walked into thr depot on Saturday and there were 25 RBs off (either breakdowns or 'never-rans') with the corresponding number of drivers around. Anyone seeing similar issues elsewhere?

K

 

[Pokelet]

We are drifting off topic here so to try and bring it back to First...

That the focus is placed onto fleet operators (both passenger and freight) is not surprising. We have already seen fuel protests when people's costs were disproportionately raised (and not a gillet jaune in sight) and the Manchester referendum - politicians daren't upset the private car owner unduly so bus companies are an easy target. It looks fairly clear that First will focus most of their investment in the areas where bus partnerships exist and/or where LEZs/CAZs exist or are being introduced - hence why Leeds, Sheffield, Kernow, Portsmouth, Bristol are getting the lions' share of the available money. This investment will be in new vehicles or refurbs (such as the 2009 Volvos being refurbished for First Worcester) and some judicious moving round of vehicles (e.g. Leicester may receive cascaded Streetlites that can be more readily brought up to euro VI - believe some are already expected).

The '59 plate Volvo's at Worcester are an interesting one as they are reportedly being converted to Euro6 spec to work the 144 into Birmingham due to the LEZ restrictions.

Worcester itself is set to be declared an air quality management area too.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The '59 plate Volvo's at Worcester are an interesting one as they are reportedly being converted to Euro6 spec to work the 144 into Birmingham due to the LEZ restrictions.

Worcester itself is set to be declared an air quality management area too.

Have the Worcester ones been modified now? Think a couple of Citaros are also being done to act as spares.

 

[Pokelet]

If they are the name is quite apt...

http://midlandred.net/vehicles/photograph/display.php?operator=mrw&type=0530&fleet=64033&image=1

 

[F Great Eastern]

Is that photoshopped, or are they really going to have that livery on it?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Is that photoshopped, or are they really going to have that livery on it?

It’s genuine - to cover for Volvos on the 144.

 

[Pokelet]

And there are 2 of them! Not sure if it's a good idea or not, it's certainly a different idea!

 

[NorthernSpirit]

I picked up a leaflet in Halifax about how First are ‘Improving for you’. I believe these leaflets are being published by all the operating companies, but in the case of Halifax they’ve obviously just done one version for West Yorkshire and rather than being a positive publication, it almost is an insult.

The main points included are

Contactless payments
Real time info via the app (we’ve had real time tracking in WY for over 10 years)
Working with the WYCA and Leeds City Council to improve infrastructure
284 new buses in Leeds

Calderdale Council are seemingly unenthusiatic when it comes to public transport, they'd rather fob you off to WYCA yet Wakefield Council are the complete opposite.

The Bristol version of the leaflet is A5 sized but more or less uses the same stock photos, but I haven't properly read it yet.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The results for various OpCos now being released. Ones so far:

Scotland East £639k from £1033k
Glasgow 1 £4171k from £1958k
Glasgow 2 £7238k from £8353k
Aberdeen (£745k) from £1897k - apparently £1m in one offs with ticketer and buying out TCEs but still....
Midland Bluebird (£1051k) from (£2064k) - turnover down by 17%
Greater Manchester (£5760k) from (£5164k) - rather odd seeing as the FD (now CE) said no opcos were now loss making!
South West £525k from (£1786k)

FSY has been submitted but not released yet. No others showing yet.

 

[overthewater]

At least most is making a profit, is there any hidden problems like pensions that taking more cash away? Of course this is only until to April and since then some big cuts have come in certain parts.

 

[GusB]

Glasgow 1 £4171k from £1958k
Glasgow 2 £7238k from £8353k

I'd forgotten that the Glasgow operations were split into 2 different companies. Am I correct in thinking that No.1 was the former Strathclyde Buses operation?

 

[overthewater]

I'd forgotten that the Glasgow operations were split into 2 different companies. Am I correct in thinking that No.1 was the former Strathclyde Buses operation?

Yes, however certain routes which SB operate have been transfered to No2.

 

[Darklord8899]

I have a better idea, just pedestrianise all streets, bulldoze all motorways and force the public to cycle.

 

[F Great Eastern]

First Northern Ireland have gone from a profit of £71,000 to a lost of £32,000.

The main reason for the changes are an increase in staff costs by 9%, whilst the accounts show that they invested £1.75m in vehicles, which suggests the 7 Plaxton Panthers they had delivered last year were purchased rather than leased and cost £250k each.

However a health warning on these results is that First Northern Ireland is the NI division of Aircoach which is based in ROI and technically First Northern Ireland is contracted by Aircoach's ROI company to provide the Dublin to Belfast service, so without seeing the Aircoach results, due in March, you can't read too much into these result, as all online ticket revenue is attributable to the ROI arm and the majority of management would be on the ROI and not NI Payroll.

There has been an intensive price war on Dublin to Belfast so it's almost certain that Aircoach results will be worse this year.

 

[oldman]

Whoever wrote the Midland Bluebird report has forgotten to mention the withdrawal from the Borders which took place early in the financial year and must make quite a difference. Last year the Borders closure was mentioned in the wrong report (FSE instead of MB).

 

[Volvodart]

is there any hidden problems like pensions that taking more cash away?

All the companies lodged so far have "restructuring costs" which are quite substantial, over £0.7m in Aberdeen and over £0.7m in Midland Bluebird, for instance. The vast majority of these monies are stated in the accounts as to be used over the next 2 financial years, with the small amounts already paid chiefly being for redundancies.

 

[Volvodart]

Whoever wrote the Midland Bluebird report has forgotten to mention the withdrawal from the Borders which took place early in the financial year and must make quite a difference. Last year the Borders closure was mentioned in the wrong report (FSE instead of MB).

The Borders disposal was before the end of the previous year, on 26 March 2017.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

At least most is making a profit, is there any hidden problems like pensions that taking more cash away? Of course this is only until to April and since then some big cuts have come in certain parts.

You would have to look at individual opcos but from the ones I've spotted (a cursory glance), the pensions have actually improved. There are one offs associated with restructuring and Ticketer (which is bearing fruit in terms of revenue protection) for Opcos. FSW gets a dividend payment from SPS though.

I'd urge some caution with looking at revenue in isolation - there's a 53rd week but then you have the "beast from the East" and other weather, hence why I've listed op profit which also takes out some of the one off issues.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Quite poor numbers for Aberdeen given that up until around 2016 they would consistently bring in between £3.5M & £4M. Although it's hardly surprising once you factor in the costs relating to the strikes and the overall condition of the network, which is in dire need of a service revision!