First Group: General Discussion

[radamfi]

...you would argue that countries can have differences. Netherlands in terms of cycling infrastructure, UK in terms of approach to public transport funding and capital vs. revenue spend, extent of local rail provision, etc.

Perhaps you're agreeing - different countries have specific individual characteristics?

You could look at it that way. But the high cycle use in the Netherlands doesn't invalidate the remark made in the document that First buses in GM offer poor service compared to that in other international cities, and it is perfectly reasonable to make the comparison. Buses in the Netherlands *are* good, but they aren't used heavily because of the existence of bikes.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Back in the late 90s First Grampian / Aberdeen had the Gold Service 7/7A which was designed to target the high car use areas in Bridge Of Don. The service ran every 7/8 minutes and done a loop in Bridge Of Don (15 minutes frequency each way), It was a very well used service and worked. Part of the reason it works so well is because it was faster than the main 1/2/3/4 services, on top of this it operated as a hail and ride in the Bridge Of Don area. So it meant you could literally hail the bus from your door. Sadly it went in the April 2001 service changes in favour of enhancing other services. But my point here is it worked and got people out their cars! It's proof that such a service does work when done properly.

Click here to see the rough route map with average journey times.
And click here to see the Timetable.

 

[Stef434]

On another note buses in Aberdeen have spent the past 3 weeks going around with the wrong destinations programmed in because the person who updates the displays updated the April 2016 file to all the buses instead of the April 2018 file. Then to put salt in the wound the file they've put in now is full of errors. As such buses on the 1A, 8, 8A, 17B, 18 and 20 are having to run with incorrect destinations or use alternatives. Strangely only some buses are affected and it seems to be a bit random!

On the 1A heading to Hillhead Of Seaton buses are stating "St Machar Drive". Buses to RGU and Castle Street are unaffected.
On the 8 there's no "ARI" destination, so buses are running to the city centre as "8 City Centre" and then changing to "8A ARI".
For a few days last week all the 8/8A destinations got wipe.
The 17B is using the destinations of the 17 and old 17B. North bound they're stating "Bucksburn" instead of "Four Mile", this is not much of an issues as they're in effect the same place. Southbound they're using "17 City centre".
Most 18s are unaffected but the AM peak journey from Sir Duncan Rice Library to Danestone (Tesco) is having to use "18A Haudagain Roundabout" despite the fact the 18 doesn't serve it!
LED fitted buses on the 20 are only able to show "20 Balnagask" and "20 City Centre" so when heading to Dubford they have to use the Citycentre destination. On this one Flip-dot buses seem unaffected.

Seems very much a farce to me but so far the service changes have improved reliability and the numbers on the merged 20/X40 are far more sustainable and could see a frequency increase.

Apparently only 1 person at Aberdeen is "trained" to update the displays on the buses, to me this seems very daft, and even then surely they could explain to someone through text or video call how to update the displays!

When an OPCO has service changes the Hannover screens are changed only after it has been approved by Marketing and PR to ensure that it meets with First protocol i.e does the changes to screens match up with service registration, spelling ,correct font, scrolling ,stactic ,etc etc ect

Generally there is only one Deric or Helen programme installed in OPCOs and one transfer unit ,this is due to the cost of license and to stop individual depots displaying what ever they want ,so yes one person in Aberdeen may be the only person trained .

Livingston Depot got into serious trouble years ago because someone inserted the word VIA in the wrong position, cost FirstBus thousands.

If a service is not operating to correct route which it is registered, i.e driver changing screens to suit operational needs under instruction from his control, then the registered service which he is driving has failed to operate .
The OPCO has to register this with the TC stating why it failed to comply with its registration, generally this would only apply to traffic delays not in Aberdeen's case industrial action.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Didn't they do that with three schemes in Darlington, Worcester and Peterborough in the early noughties?

I don't know those three, but there was also the 'Stevenage Superbus Experiment' or the Runcorn Busway.

Besides, the issues are far more fundamental than throwing money to run bus services that no-one uses (see various RBC services in the past) or shiny bus stops. How do you dissuade car travel? How do you influence planning to ensure that new developments are accessible to bus services? How do you design road usage to promote safe cycling and bus usage?

Anyhow, we are drifting away from the actual subject of the thread (and I'm as guilty as anyone)

We need drift, drift is good, better then interminable debates about whether 4 of 5 seats on Optare fleet number whatever have had new moqueutte or second-hand off another bus. But just my humble opinion.

I think a significant amount of money has been wasted in the past on the rural and urban bus grant. What is the point of all those Kasell Kerbs installed in Stoke-on-Trent when there are no longer any buses serving the stops. Or Real-time information displays never used, or the cabling installed to stops and never used, or the display outside Stoke-on-Trent station which has been 'system under test' for probably a decade! Never mind buses up Wharfedale every 2 hours, 6 days a week, when the valley never had anything like that service, ever, even in the heyday of bus use.

Encouraging public transport use, specifically bus use, is relevant to the on-going First 'turnaround' anyway. One issue is whether that turnaround is public sector led ie subsidised bus services, supportive town planning etc or whether it is private sector led. O'Toole's version seems to be 'we will invest where there is a huge public bung to do so, otherwise tough'. Tesco did not take that approach when it had its financial problems. Rather it got off its backside, picked itself up by its bootstraps and went out to grab back custom, hard.

The long running issue with British bus management is its 'managing inevitable decline' mentality.

It is not (only) about getting people out of cars. That policy goal seems to have been widely abandoned. It is about offering something to the 27% of the eligible population who do not have a driving licence so that they can take an active part in society. How many people are now unable to reach hospital appointments? Should they sit at home and decay or insist on patient transport at greater cost than providing a bus to a sensibly located hospital? How many people can no longer do jury service due to their only bus service being after 0930 and home by 1530? How much extra in travel expenses are the courts service paying?

Town Planning was, at local council level, generally in favour of development which could be served adequately by public transport, albeit for different reasons - supporting town centres, preventing urban sprawl, preventing out-of-town retail. It was central government policy, supported by The Planning Inspectorate allowing the many 'refused' planning applications on appeal, and awarding costs against councils, which opened that pandoras box. With an element of political opportunism to be seen to creating big, shiny new things to then cut the ribbon on close to election time! But where were the objections to those planning applications by the bus operators? Where were the objections to the redevelopment of bus stations by bus operators? Where were the objections to inadequate replacement facilities by operators eg in Hanley and Northampton to name but two. Retailers are quick to appoint a 'retail consultant' to argue against one of their competitors opening a store nearby. Where are bus operators 'transport consultants' coming in to argue against developments which will worsen congestion on their key routes? Where are the supportive suggestions or formal objections to housing developments, business parks, or retail parks which will be, effectively, impossible to serve by bus due to their narrow roads or cul-de-sac layouts. Where are the comments by bus operators about the provision of bus stops, conveniently located for new developments rather than 200 metres back from the junction?

 

[Stef434]

We need drift, drift is good, better then interminable debates about whether 4 of 5 seats on Optare fleet number whatever have had new moqueutte or second-hand off another bus. But just my humble opinion.

I think a significant amount of money has been wasted in the past on the rural and urban bus grant. What is the point of all those Kasell Kerbs installed in Stoke-on-Trent when there are no longer any buses serving the stops. Or Real-time information displays never used, or the cabling installed to stops and never used, or the display outside Stoke-on-Trent station which has been 'system under test' for probably a decade! Never mind buses up Wharfedale every 2 hours, 6 days a week, when the valley never had anything like that service, ever, even in the heyday of bus use.

Encouraging public transport use, specifically bus use, is relevant to the on-going First 'turnaround' anyway. One issue is whether that turnaround is public sector led ie subsidised bus services, supportive town planning etc or whether it is private sector led. O'Toole's version seems to be 'we will invest where there is a huge public bung to do so, otherwise tough'. Tesco did not take that approach when it had its financial problems. Rather it got off its backside, picked itself up by its bootstraps and went out to grab back custom, hard.

The long running issue with British bus management is its 'managing inevitable decline' mentality.

It is not (only) about getting people out of cars. That policy goal seems to have been widely abandoned. It is about offering something to the 27% of the eligible population who do not have a driving licence so that they can take an active part in society. How many people are now unable to reach hospital appointments? Should they sit at home and decay or insist on patient transport at greater cost than providing a bus to a sensibly located hospital? How many people can no longer do jury service due to their only bus service being after 0930 and home by 1530? How much extra in travel expenses are the courts service paying?

Town Planning was, at local council level, generally in favour of development which could be served adequately by public transport, albeit for different reasons - supporting town centres, preventing urban sprawl, preventing out-of-town retail. It was central government policy, supported by The Planning Inspectorate allowing the many 'refused' planning applications on appeal, and awarding costs against councils, which opened that pandoras box. With an element of political opportunism to be seen to creating big, shiny new things to then cut the ribbon on close to election time! But where were the objections to those planning applications by the bus operators? Where were the objections to the redevelopment of bus stations by bus operators? Where were the objections to inadequate replacement facilities by operators eg in Hanley and Northampton to name but two. Retailers are quick to appoint a 'retail consultant' to argue against one of their competitors opening a store nearby. Where are bus operators 'transport consultants' coming in to argue against developments which will worsen congestion on their key routes? Where are the supportive suggestions or formal objections to housing developments, business parks, or retail parks which will be, effectively, impossible to serve by bus due to their narrow roads or cul-de-sac layouts. Where are the comments by bus operators about the provision of bus stops, conveniently located for new developments rather than 200 metres back from the junction?

In terms of your last paragraph, First and probably other operators see new developments as a new way of income,

local authorities will only involve bus operators when they have to be involved i.e roadworks public events etc etc ,they will not invite operators to such planning notices ,the operator will have to either adapt to new traffic management by sourcing the appropriate vehicle type from other OPCO, changing timetables, or omit from the new traffic management

The provision of bus stops are agreed by the appointed person from the OPCO to the Council bus stop working party ,this involves the operator, local authority(roads inspector,Health and safety),Police, Ambulance ,Fire Service and community council and any other invited persons

In relation the the bus stops with raised kerbs and fancy stop information these are normally installed when a quality partnership or franchise is on the route of the stops ,wait till the new Bus Act takes off ......

 

[Jordan Adam]

When an OPCO has service changes the Hannover screens are changed only after it has been approved by Marketing and PR to ensure that it meets with First protocol i.e does the changes to screens match up with service registration, spelling ,correct font, scrolling ,stactic ,etc etc ect

Generally there is only one Deric or Helen programme installed in OPCOs and one transfer unit ,this is due to the cost of license and to stop individual depots displaying what ever they want ,so yes one person in Aberdeen may be the only person trained .

Livingston Depot got into serious trouble years ago because someone inserted the word VIA in the wrong position, cost FirstBus thousands.

If a service is not operating to correct route which it is registered, i.e driver changing screens to suit operational needs under instruction from his control, then the registered service which he is driving has failed to operate .
The OPCO has to register this with the TC stating why it failed to comply with its registration, generally this would only apply to traffic delays not in Aberdeen's case industrial action.

But the thing is the proper displays were on all the buses for the first few days. Then the April 2016 file was put on all of them by accident, then the person trained went on holiday!

 

[Baxenden Bank]

local authorities will only involve bus operators when they have to be involved i.e roadworks public events etc etc ,they will not invite operators to such planning notices ,the operator will have to either adapt to new traffic management by sourcing the appropriate vehicle type from other OPCO, changing timetables, or omit from the new traffic management

You don't wait to be invited. You get out there and express your views on strategic plans, local plans and individual planning applications. You don't just sit there and hope someone friendly at the council likes buses and speaks up on your behalf!

The provision of bus stops are agreed by the appointed person from the OPCO to the Council bus stop working party ,this involves the operator, local authority(roads inspector,Health and safety),Police, Ambulance ,Fire Service and community council and any other invited persons

And the person from the OPCO doesn't travel by bus so thinks it's OK, so long as there is a bus stop somewhere in the general vicinity. The walk from most supermarket doors to the public road is far enough for many people nowadays, never mind the same distance again to the nearest bus stop, in the rain, with no road crossing point and no bus shelter when you get there. Remind me, why don't people travel by bus anymore! If 400 metres is such an acceptable distance to walk, why aren't car parking spaces placed so far away from the supermarket doors!

In relation the the bus stops with raised kerbs and fancy stop information these are normally installed when a quality partnership or franchise is on the route of the stops ,wait till the new Bus Act takes off ......

Locally at least, Quality Partnership never really meant anything. Not much in the way of quality or partnership.

 

[Dentonian]

You mean you've deliberately chosen a thirteen month period so that it covers two lots of annual fare rise to make Stagecoach look bad?

Seems a bit skewed...








Metrolink has been able to cherry-pick the busiest bus corridors and provide a better service (given the segregated nature of light rail etc). Which is fair enough - if routes are busy enough for a double decker bus every five minutes then it's worth considering a tram route down that corridor. You just can't then blame bus companies for passenger numbers falling (if a tram comes along to take them).

Yes, it includes two increases but they were in April 2017 and January this year. Total increase for Day Tickets being 12.5% and weekly tickets 7.1%. Single ticket increases have varied more widely, but these are also the ones that have increased the most (approx. ten-fold) since De-reg.

I think its highly questionable that Metrolink gives a "better" service given the regular system wide collapses, but I look at things from the passengers' viewpoint, especially the passenger who doesn't share Mo Farah's physical fitness levels. If you find it anything from time consuming to physically impossible to walk to a tram stop instead of a bus stop, then you are going to have to acquire a car and for the financial (and other) considerations already debated, that means using public transport becomes totally nonsensical - hence clogging (and polluting) the streets.

 

[Hophead]

You don't wait to be invited. You get out there and express your views on strategic plans, local plans and individual planning applications. You don't just sit there and hope someone friendly at the council likes buses and speaks up on your behalf!

And the person from the OPCO doesn't travel by bus so thinks it's OK, so long as there is a bus stop somewhere in the general vicinity. The walk from most supermarket doors to the public road is far enough for many people nowadays, never mind the same distance again to the nearest bus stop, in the rain, with no road crossing point and no bus shelter when you get there. Remind me, why don't people travel by bus anymore! If 400 metres is such an acceptable distance to walk, why aren't car parking spaces placed so far away from the supermarket doors!


Locally at least, Quality Partnership never really meant anything. Not much in the way of quality or partnership.

Some supermarket car parks are large enough for the car to shop distance to be getting on for 400 metres.

As for your more general point regarding getting out there and making your views known, that's one of the problems with the enormous regions that some national operators have foisted upon their networks. If Slough is facing some disruptive roadworks, does Southampton know enough about the area to object and suggest a viable alternative?

In Oxford, both Go-Ahead & Stagecoach have strong local management who make their views known on the City Council's plans for the road network.

 

[Cesarcollie]

When an OPCO has service changes the Hannover screens are changed only after it has been approved by Marketing and PR to ensure that it meets with First protocol i.e does the changes to screens match up with service registration, spelling ,correct font, scrolling ,stactic ,etc etc ect

Generally there is only one Deric or Helen programme installed in OPCOs and one transfer unit ,this is due to the cost of license and to stop individual depots displaying what ever they want ,so yes one person in Aberdeen may be the only person trained .

Livingston Depot got into serious trouble years ago because someone inserted the word VIA in the wrong position, cost FirstBus thousands.

If a service is not operating to correct route which it is registered, i.e driver changing screens to suit operational needs under instruction from his control, then the registered service which he is driving has failed to operate .
The OPCO has to register this with the TC stating why it failed to comply with its registration, generally this would only apply to traffic delays not in Aberdeen's case industrial action.

Fascinating - I've never come across a license cost for Deric or Helen software. And how did an erroneous 'via' cost Livingston depot 'thousands'?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

You don't wait to be invited. You get out there and express your views on strategic plans, local plans and individual planning applications. You don't just sit there and hope someone friendly at the council likes buses and speaks up on your behalf!

And the person from the OPCO doesn't travel by bus so thinks it's OK, so long as there is a bus stop somewhere in the general vicinity. The walk from most supermarket doors to the public road is far enough for many people nowadays, never mind the same distance again to the nearest bus stop, in the rain, with no road crossing point and no bus shelter when you get there. Remind me, why don't people travel by bus anymore! If 400 metres is such an acceptable distance to walk, why aren't car parking spaces placed so far away from the supermarket doors!

Locally at least, Quality Partnership never really meant anything. Not much in the way of quality or partnership.

I'm sorry but do you actually know any bus company managers? The ones I know do try to liaise and have relationships with local authorities but sadly many are fairly tepid. Firstly, they don't wish to upset the majority of the general public so nothing that could be anti-car can be entertained. Also, planning applications are often tied in with other considerations, and public transport comes a long way down the list.

That is before you get into the "council knows best" syndrome or the views of some councils who believe that bus companies are simply another commercial entity and so why provide any "favourable treatment", and believe me, that lack of enlightenment does exist within local authorities. If an LA doesn't support any bus services, like Stoke on Trent, what makes you think they are going to be bothered about helping the local operator.

So yeah, you can attempt to make relationships, and you can gesture, harass, canvass and campaign but many local authorities don't give a Donald!

ps Drift is not ok - that's why we have moderators on this board! I stubbed my toe on a First bus - that doesn't mean I can waffle on about chiropody.

If you want an industry wide discussion, start the thread!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

You could look at it that way. But the high cycle use in the Netherlands doesn't invalidate the remark made in the document that First buses in GM offer poor service compared to that in other international cities, and it is perfectly reasonable to make the comparison. Buses in the Netherlands *are* good, but they aren't used heavily because of the existence of bikes.

Are you still not seeing the parallel?

The plain statement of fact is the just that....

• That First GM is poor when compared to major European cities, or that bus usage in the Netherlands is low

However, it is the context in which those statements are made and the causal factors. You seem quite happy to admit that there's a causal factor in respect of the Netherlands when it suits your argument, but are dismissive that there may be a similar concept (albeit markedly different in the detail) with the UK.

 

[radamfi]

Are you still not seeing the parallel?

The plain statement of fact is the just that....

• That First GM is poor when compared to major European cities, or that bus usage in the Netherlands is low

However, it is the context in which those statements are made and the causal factors. You seem quite happy to admit that there's a causal factor in respect of the Netherlands when it suits your argument, but are dismissive that there may be a similar concept (albeit markedly different in the detail) with the UK.

There is only a parallel if we are making "excuses" for low patronage. I have never claimed that patronage in the Netherlands is high, only that the service is good. In the Dutch case, it doesn't matter as national modal split for cycling (circa 30% of trips) is so high.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There is only a parallel if we are making "excuses" for low patronage. I have never claimed that patronage in the Netherlands is high, only that the service is good. In the Dutch case, it doesn't matter as national modal split for cycling (circa 30% of trips) is so high.

No - you feel quite happy to dismiss "local factors" when it suits but happy to embrace when it supports your argument.

A proverb about and eating it springs to mind.

 

[radamfi]

No - you feel quite happy to dismiss "local factors" when it suits but happy to embrace when it supports your argument.

A proverb about and eating it springs to mind.

Surely what counts is the combined bus/bike/walk (basically non-car) modal share?

You are implying that the high Dutch cycle modal share is not something to be proud of, because it harms bus patronage levels. There is no comparable "silver lining" in the Manchester situation.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Surely what counts is the combined bus/bike/walk (basically non-car) modal share?

You are implying that the high Dutch cycle modal share is not something to be proud of, because it harms bus patronage levels. There is no comparable "silver lining" in the Manchester situation.

No, you're throwing chaff in the air.

I'm fine with your Dutch info, and the level of cycling should be applauded - got it?

What I'm not fine are your double standards in discussing things. You are haughtily dismissive of reasons why things could be different in the UK because it doesn't support your argument. However, when something is different in another country, then you are happy to have that put forward as contextualisation.

The detail is immaterial - you want to have so Heads You Win, Tails We Lose.

 

[radamfi]

No, you're throwing chaff in the air.

I'm fine with your Dutch info, and the level of cycling should be applauded - got it?

What I'm not fine are your double standards in discussing things. You are haughtily dismissive of reasons why things could be different in the UK because it doesn't support your argument. However, when something is different in another country, then you are happy to have that put forward as contextualisation.

The detail is immaterial - you want to have so Heads You Win, Tails We Lose.

I was not making excuses for low Dutch bus use. I only mentioned it because you said the Dutch provided no information about patronage.

I also was surprised by your implication that good public transport should result in low car ownership, when *car usage* is what matters. I didn't think we would disagree on that.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I was not making excuses for low Dutch bus use. I only mentioned it because you said the Dutch provided no information about patronage.

I also was surprised by your implication that good public transport should result in low car ownership, when *car usage* is what matters. I didn't think we would disagree on that.

As I said above -

I'm fine with your Dutch info, and the level of cycling should be applauded - got it?

To reiterate, I am fine with good public transport and, indeed, the level of cycling in the Netherlands.

However, you seem to stubbornly be avoiding the point that I have mentioned on several occasions. Why are you happy to excuse variances and causal factors in other countries (e.g. the very laudable impact of cycling in the Netherlands) when it suits, yet not accept that there are specific differences in the UK that also affect bus services?

You accept that every country has particular cultural, legislative and geographic differences that mean that direct comparisons are not always achievable?

 

[radamfi]

As I said above -


To reiterate, I am fine with good public transport and, indeed, the level of cycling in the Netherlands.

However, you seem to stubbornly be avoiding the point that I have mentioned on several occasions. Why are you happy to excuse variances and causal factors in other countries (e.g. the very laudable impact of cycling in the Netherlands) when it suits, yet not accept that there are specific differences in the UK that also affect bus services?

You accept that every country has particular cultural, legislative and geographic differences that mean that direct comparisons are not always achievable?

The issues affecting Britain which cause such a very negative impact are as a direct result of choices made in recent history that could easily be remedied. There is also no clear positive transport side effect of these choices. Whereas in the Netherlands, you have both a good bus service and good cycling. There is no "issue" to find an excuse for.

Yes, it is easy to make excuses for Britain and say, "oh well, the culture doesn't lend itself to a good bus service, so let's give up now."

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The issues affecting Britain which cause such a very negative impact are as a direct result of choices made in recent history that could easily be remedied. There is also no clear positive transport side effect of these choices. Whereas in the Netherlands, you have both a good bus service and good cycling. There is no "issue" to find an excuse for.

Yes, it is easy to make excuses for Britain and say, "oh well, the culture doesn't lend itself to a good bus service, so let's give up now."

You see - you still don't accept the premise? You are happy to explain something else away (oh, it's different - it's the Netherlands) when it suits but sneer when someone else points out (it's different - it's the UK).

Forget the stuff about modal shift, and your usual utterances. Can you understand my point - you can't just accept one principle "it's explainable as it's the Netherlands" yet discard it "it's explainable - it's the UK" when it suits your argument?

Do you understand?

 

[radamfi]

You see - you still don't accept the premise? You are happy to explain something else away (oh, it's different - it's the Netherlands) when it suits but sneer when someone else points out (it's different - it's the UK).

Forget the stuff about modal shift, and your usual utterances. Can you understand my point - you can't just accept one principle "it's explainable as it's the Netherlands" yet discard it "it's explainable - it's the UK" when it suits your argument?

Do you understand?

There is no answer that will satisfy you other than "yes, I have double standards," so let's give this up now.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There is no answer that will satisfy you other than "yes, I have double standards," so let's give this up now.

You don't get off that easily I'm happy to have a reasoned and passionate discussion with anyone. I'll fight my corner for what I believe, and I do respect your views.

However, in order to have a reasoned debate, we can't just apply a principle where it supports our argument, or ignore just because it doesn't. Similarly (and not pointed at you), there's no point in arbitrarily supplying statistics when we cannot understand the context, or omitting detail because it suits.

As it is, the Netherlands have made decisions to invest in public transport as have countries such as Germany. My point was that this isn't reflected in car ownership and, as we've seen, having a car is often seen as a sunk cost. So the question is really - what is the actual, tangible delivered benefit from investment in bus services in Western European countries? Is patronage on bus services increasing?

The other aspect is that as a country, the UK has elected to pursue a pro car policy for the last 60 years or more and why we think that this may change (irrespective of the governing party) is something that baffles me. Especially when we can't adequately fund our health services - when faced with the choice of more nurses or more buses, I think we know where the divide will be

 

[radamfi]

The Dutch don't really have an anti-car policy, though, and have actually gone on a huge road building binge in the last decade or so, for example the 10 lane A2 between Amsterdam and Utrecht. They pour money into all modes of transport: car, train, bus and bike.

 

[Robertj21a]

Getting back to First Group........

I see that they have pulled out of the bid for the Midland Mainline rail franchise, in order to concentrate on the West Coast franchise.

 

[Volvodart]

I think they are due to start around the same time, unless they are further delayed. That might have been too much for First in the unlikely event they were successful for both!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The Dutch don't really have an anti-car policy, though, and have actually gone on a huge road building binge in the last decade or so, for example the 10 lane A2 between Amsterdam and Utrecht. They pour money into all modes of transport: car, train, bus and bike.

Yes, but that is the point. The Dutch have been more egalitarian in their approach; the UK has pursued a broadly pro-car agenda.

Think that is what First are saying - that congestion is increasing (and mainly from van traffic according to 2016 DoT statistics) and so they want to see investment from local authorities and that is where they will focus their spending too. Now a cynic could argue that First are employing that as a means of avoiding/reducing capital spending - however, with LAs like Southend and Stoke involved in First territory, it is something difficult to prove or disprove!

Getting back to First Group........

I see that they have pulled out of the bid for the Midland Mainline rail franchise, in order to concentrate on the West Coast franchise.

Absolutely the right thing to do if there are two bids on the go and at the same time. Sometimes, it is better not to invest time in pursuing something that you can't win.

 

[Jordan Adam]

It looks like the destination displays error at First Aberdeen has been sorted as all buses were going about with the correct displays today.

 

[overthewater]

There talk First Glasgow are due new stock in a month or two, Lets hope its a decent amount. Also in a surprising move 57 plate or plates are being done out with wood flooring and USB ports...

 

[Jordan Adam]

There talk First Glasgow are due new stock in a month or two, Lets hope its a decent amount. Also in a surprising move 57 plate or plates are being done out with wood flooring and USB ports...

I'd assume those are the additional 25 Enviro400s they've had on order for a little while now. It's nice to see cash being splashed on the midlife buses, personally that's the way forward just now.

 

[overthewater]

I'd assume those are the additional 25 Enviro400s they've had on order for a little while now. It's nice to see cash being splashed on the midlife buses, personally that's the way forward just now.

It supposed to be 50 that should be coming whether its all deckers or mix of singles aswell is anyone guess. Of course anything above 56 will still be around for another 8 years so prefect time for refurb, and this what should be getting done. Lets hope Glasgow gets those 300 newer buses between now and 2022..